Is skipping henchman tier pets viable?

I respecced out of my demonlings and took my 3 whip attacks and some other secondary powers and swiftness. I am going to take my ember demon and see how this build does solo. If worst comes to worst, I can always pick it up along the way.

Has anyone have success with such a build?

I've heard it done before with Ninjas, nothing else though.

No, it is not.

When I'm on a team in a cave or other tight map, I'll often only summon my Protector Bots and Assault Bot. There's still plenty of firepower going downrange, and survival isn't really an issue.

The architecture of caves lends itself very well to a player's survival against crazy odds, IMHO.

Outside of those natural chokepoints, however, you've got fire and aggro from all sides. It isn't just about the drop in firepower that comes from skipping the minions; you'd also be experiencing a drop in resistance via the lack of bodies with which to share damage with bodyguard mode.

It is a reasonable strategy up until about level 26. Below that level, you are doing considerable damage with your own attacks, and can easily compensate for a missing tier. In fact, in the 18-22 range, having both available tiers AND your own attacks can help you get through a low point in MM damage.

Having said that, once you get to level 32, your attacks no longer remain competitive. You are doing less than 1/5 your overall damage, with the pets each doing 25-30% of the damage. More importantly, the effect of Bodyguard on your survivability, and the support aspects of their powers, make them too important to skip. You may be cutting into your offense by only about 5-10%, but you are cutting into your defense by a huge amount.

Now, this may be different for Demon Summoning. Since the attacks reduce the Res of your foes, that means ALL attacks used against them, yours, your henchmen's, and your team's, all do more damage. This could easily turn the balance against not using attacks at all and using only your pets.

Then again, a viable balance of attacks with pets, with perhaps only two of the attacks taken out of the three, would probably still be better than skipping a tier. You might be able to get away with only moderately slotting one of your tiers, though. (I did this with my Punks on my pseudo-petless build, until I got into my 40s. In fact, if I could have slotted my Arsonist and NOT the other two morons, I would have )

Yes, this can work and the DS attacks are probably one of the best do this with. You didn' t mention secondaries, but I'd say Dark is probably the best choice, if you're skipping a henchmen tier. Plenty of utility and you get a useful pet.

Force Field and Traps offer plenty of defense for you and the Henchies, as well.

I don't know about DS as I haven't worked with it much.

I only know this to be viable with a Bots/DM Tankermind build.

I agree that the ember demon would allow you to do this without too much extra effort because of it's shield and aoe heal (post 32).

Thank you for all the replies! I stopped looking for a day or two after the third post and now I have useful information!

Anywho, my build is Demon Summoning/Storm Summoning. Currently, I have all the whip attacks and my Ember Demon. I realized a bit late that I should have grabbed my upgrade in exchange for maybe snow storm, but I'll have to pick it up along the way. Though it's difficult at times, once I get at least some DO slotting going, I should be able to pick up the pace. Accuracy and damage (more so, accuracy) are the issues with the whips atm, but Ember is nice because I can either grab the aggro with his buffs or let him do it while I whip the mob.

Thanks for giving your opinion on this controversial subject! Very insightful post Jade!

I'm just not too sold on it. Even if it's a concept build, where tier1 pets are minimized and you emphasize your personal attacks, you are still are faced with the choice of one of the following through level four: O2 Boost, Snow Storm, or Demonlings.

I just can't make a strong argument for taking O2 Boost or Snow Storm over Demonlings. O2 Boost is a very ineffective heal (w/status yes, but still) even compared to Aid Other. Snow Storm is the stronger of the two storm powers, but it's end cost means it's more useful later with slotting/stamina.

I would take the Demonlings anyway, and either use them or not as the whim takes you.

Back in ye olden days weren't there a few petless masterminds only taking primary attacks and secondaries?

I started playing my bots/ff again and took her blue side with GR, and can't imagine not taking all the pets. They are for all intent and purpose my hit point pool and my source of damage.

i also would put your pets this way, and re-iterate what others have said. I keep tier one pets, not for use, but purely for bg mode at higher levels.

Henchmen are damage sinks, or a combo of a shield/dull pain basically. I use the first tier only for this purpose as i get in higher levels. In low levels, i need the tier one pets, but after a certain point, i use primarily just my tier 2 and tier 3.

If you look at body guard mode, when u summon, its like adding a sheild and small dull pain by effecitvely using a resistance type shield (the henchmen, which absorbs a percentage of the damage just like a shield, then dies) and dull pain (the henchmen absorb some of the damage thus allowing you to take more damage, ie kinda like increasing your hit points).

Basically, its kinda complex, but i have my binds set up, to keep certain pets in BG mode, and others in offensive mode. I can swap out the stances on my pets, to basically change my tankability (i can change the number of pets in BG mode, thus changing my resistance, and my ability to take damage). If my recharges is right, then i can wade in, with all pets in BG mode, re-summon, and bascially keep the alpha. I can then selectively switch pets into offensive mode, and maintain bg mode or shielding as the situation eveolves.

Keep the tier ones, they are invaluble in for your defense (but its really your resistance). That is probably more of the tankermind mentality people talk about.

Note the OP is talking about low levels. Try those mishes at +0x1, with one Protector Bot, and tell me how it is.

If your traps it is doable as you can still defense cap and toe bomb mobs. I am doing that myself for a concept build and for a challenge of seeing if I can do it.

I will say though, you need to get stamina as soon as it comes up. The end drain of the attacks with SOs is painful. I ended up slotting some IOs sets just to get by. Sadly Trip mine is 35 levels away. Which is a stinker also.

I am also picking up Detonator, again I don't need the pet so it will be fun having him blow up to protect me.