Why is a tanker better than broot for pvp?
By
Deus,
Posted on: 2010-08-21 09:05 in Everything about PvP
Quote:
because one doesn't significantly outdamage the other. they both get webnades/fossilize/taunt. tankers have the higher HP.
|
Originally Posted by Dz131
???
I dont understand |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
I though a brute was supposed to be a cross between tanker and scraps so it would do more damage.
In high-end arena PvP, brutes were used as webnading, high-HP disruption toons. Tanks are higher-HP, webnading disruption toons now.
Kills come from optimized damage spikes in high-end arena PvP, so a melee toon's damage output isn't a factor. A melee toon's HP is the biggest factor in the opposition's spike group when determining whether or not it's worth a spike attempt. A decent, webnading tank should never die, whereas the lower-HP brute can be taken down by better spiking groups.
Quote:
in pve with full(or as full as you can get now) fury, yea it does much better damage.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
I though a brute was supposed to be a cross between tanker and scraps so it would do more damage.
|
but nothing in pve is the same in pvp. nothing.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Hero classes are generally better than villains. They make IOs and abilities and design the encounters with these abilities to take away all the villains abilities. Stalkers are seen a mile away, brutes have no fury as they can't melee. Corruptors have weaker debuff compared to defenders and the same goes for Dominators.
If you want to PvP and win, it needs to be a hero.....remember that most, if not all, people are biased and that always, ALWAYS creeps into their professionalism. So, if you don't think the devs are happy the heroes are more powerful, you are blind to society and human nature. professionalism is just a tag, like justice. Neither really exist the way they are defined.
Night Goblin 35 lvl BS/Regen Scrapper
Slag Heap 38 lvl Fire/Axe Tanker
Energy Anomoly 23 lvl Energy/Energy Blaster
WoW that's really lame. Do Villians have any classes that are workable in PVP?
Quote:
His first sentence is kinda true when it comes to arena PVP. You'll see alot more blasters and emps than enything else. |
Originally Posted by MeleeMadness
Hero classes are generally better than villains. They make IOs and abilities and design the encounters with these abilities to take away all the villains abilities. Stalkers are seen a mile away, brutes have no fury as they can't melee. Corruptors have weaker debuff compared to defenders and the same goes for Dominators.
If you want to PvP and win, it needs to be a hero.....remember that most, if not all, people are biased and that always, ALWAYS creeps into their professionalism. So, if you don't think the devs are happy the heroes are more powerful, you are blind to society and human nature. professionalism is just a tag, like justice. Neither really exist the way they are defined. |
The rest of it makes me think he has a best friend and it's a small, burnt, glass pipe.
Quote:
Dominators see play as do some Masterminds (Storms), as well as VEATs occasionally and Stalkers. Don't see too many Corruptors around since Blasters drop stuff so quickly and not many Brutes anymore since Tankers get webnades.
|
Originally Posted by Dz131
WoW that's really lame. Do Villians have any classes that are workable in PVP?
|
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
heroes aren't necesarily better, they just have very straightforward roles, while villa can fill many roles but not as effectively
Quote:
The real reason is more like they saw how unbalanced the hero ATs were and made a serious attempt to make more balanced archetypes. It's a continuing pattern you see with the addition of Kinetic Melee and Electrical Control.|
Originally Posted by MeleeMadness
If you want to PvP and win, it needs to be a hero.....remember that most, if not all, people are biased and that always, ALWAYS creeps into their professionalism. So, if you don't think the devs are happy the heroes are more powerful, you are blind to society and human nature. professionalism is just a tag, like justice. Neither really exist the way they are defined.
|
They've realized that if they make new things more powerful than old things they have a never-ending escalation of expectations. New things need to be different, but they need to be comparable in power -- and that's a very hard thing to do when things are different. The tiniest details can be exploited and disrupt the balance.
Villain ATs in general are more balanced than hero ATs in terms of offense and defense. Brutes have more damage potential than tanks, which is balanced by less defense. Corruptors are like defenders, but with more damage and less "defenderishness." Stalkers are like melee blasters, with relatively weak defenses compared to scrappers, but strong compared to blasters, so it's a more-or-less even trade of more defense for shorter-ranged melee attacks. Dominators get more damage than controllers, but lack defensive capabilities. Masterminds are like controllers without the control, but more damage, and similar defense.
Over time the hero ATs have been buffed in big and small ways in order to attain some rough kind of balance. Blasters were all offense and no defense -- that's been dealt with somewhat with the new Defiance, more hit points, etc. Tankers and defenders have been given some small offensive buffs. Controllers were given Containment for more damage (a long time ago now). Scrappers have always been the most balanced AT, and have remained more or less unchanged.
The problem is that in the current PvP everything is predicated on extremes -- you need to do the most damage in the shortest amount of time, or be able to soak huge alphas to survive. This is my real problem with PvP -- it's nothing like fights in the comic books, which were long, drawn out affairs. Players want PvP fights to be over in a few seconds, and with good reason: if it takes forever to beat your opponent down they can easily escape and no one ever wins.
This is why PvP hasn't been successful in this game. People really hate getting ganked in two seconds. And they hate it when opponents run away. Trying to achieve a balance between these two poles is very difficult due to the extremes of the damage blasters can dish out and tankers can take.
The devs tried to address this with the PvP revamp, with all the obnoxious heal decay, travel suppression, and the like. But no one is happy with the result.
The current solutions don't work. What needs to change is the motivations for the players. Travel suppression is bogus -- players should not want to run away from a fight; they shouldn't be forced to stay. There should be some in-game motivation for standing your ground.
On the other side, getting defeated currently has too high a penalty. In PvP fights getting defeated should be akin to going down for the count in boxing, and then getting back up to fight again. This could be done by leaving all your defensive toggles on when you're defeated by a player, and giving everyone a self-res power that can be used only when defeated by an other player. Then you can be up and fighting again instantly.
To get a point of rep you need to knock down another player five or so times. If you flee from a fair fight, you lose rep and your name is displayed in yellow with a chicken icon for the next day. Determining whether a player is fleeing from a fair fight would be tricky: a lone corruptor running away from six blasters is not cowardice. Similarly, six blasters ganking a lone corruptor should reduce the rep of all the blasters involved because it's not a fair fight. If you lose rep in a fight, you have no chance for a PvP recipe drop.
In short, PvP should be made more like a boxing match rather than an assassination. By providing in-game motivations to abide by a certain code of conduct, PvP could be a lot more fair, fun and engaging, at the same time being much more like the rollicking fights you see in the comics and movies.
Awesome post, Rodion. You've assessed and described every problem I have/ had with PvP. I like your solutions too, although, as you point out, your proposed rep penalty/reward system sounds "tricky".
I agree there should be no penalty for fleeing when outnumbered, but I'm not sure I agree that groups should lose rep for attacking loners; they already share the rep across the team and part of PvP is using strategy--turning numbers in your favor certainly is part of this.
Perhaps the loner could get buffed exponentially for each extra opponent and/or be up for increased rep reward/ pvp recipe drop chance?
Great ideas.
Open the pod bay doors, Hal.
Quote:
That's good, but it'd be even better if all that person's toons were actually turned into chickens and their attacks turned into the low-dam melee powers of Scratch (Lethal) and Peck (Smashing). Travels would all turn into Sprint and a severely-End heavy form of Hover. Also, all their chat would be turned into random "bock-bock" and "cluck-cluck" words.
|
Originally Posted by Rodion
If you flee from a fair fight, you lose rep and your name is displayed in yellow with a chicken icon for the next day.
|
Quote:
Everyone knows "peck" is piercing damage and since the devs would be hesitant to add another damage type (probably ten years worth of code) I doubt this will ever happen unfortunately |
Originally Posted by Psoma
That's good, but it'd be even better if all that person's toons were actually turned into chickens and their attacks turned into the low-dam melee powers of Scratch (Lethal) and Peck (Smashing). Travels would all turn into Sprint and a severely-End heavy form of Hover. Also, all their chat would be turned into random "bock-bock" and "cluck-cluck" words.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rodion
This is why PvP hasn't been successful in this game. People really hate getting ganked in two seconds. And they hate it when opponents run away. Trying to achieve a balance between these two poles is very difficult due to the extremes of the damage blasters can dish out and tankers can take.
The devs tried to address this with the PvP revamp, with all the obnoxious heal decay, travel suppression, and the like. But no one is happy with the result. The current solutions don't work. What needs to change is the motivations for the players. Travel suppression is bogus -- players should not want to run away from a fight; they shouldn't be forced to stay. There should be some in-game motivation for standing your ground. On the other side, getting defeated currently has too high a penalty. In PvP fights getting defeated should be akin to going down for the count in boxing, and then getting back up to fight again. This could be done by leaving all your defensive toggles on when you're defeated by a player, and giving everyone a self-res power that can be used only when defeated by an other player. Then you can be up and fighting again instantly. To get a point of rep you need to knock down another player five or so times. If you flee from a fair fight, you lose rep and your name is displayed in yellow with a chicken icon for the next day. Determining whether a player is fleeing from a fair fight would be tricky: a lone corruptor running away from six blasters is not cowardice. Similarly, six blasters ganking a lone corruptor should reduce the rep of all the blasters involved because it's not a fair fight. If you lose rep in a fight, you have no chance for a PvP recipe drop. In short, PvP should be made more like a boxing match rather than an assassination. By providing in-game motivations to abide by a certain code of conduct, PvP could be a lot more fair, fun and engaging, at the same time being much more like the rollicking fights you see in the comics and movies. |
Oh mai gad! Do you even PVP in this game? Seriously. Not only are these completely horrible ideas but the amount of work spent implementing such nonsense would be much better suited to addressing the ACTUAL issues with PVP.
I like fightclub as much as the next person but leave that in the cage with the melee types. I don't understand this "I couldn't defeat you so change the game to make it easier for me" mentality.
Try PVPing and learning the ins and outs before posting this kind of stuff. Yikes!
Quote:
lmao! Everyone turning into chickens sounds better than the craptastic stuff he came up with. All those changes he was talkin about sounds like the latest version of TRU WARRIR TALON TO TALON combat! |
Originally Posted by Psoma
That's good, but it'd be even better if all that person's toons were actually turned into chickens and their attacks turned into the low-dam melee powers of Scratch (Lethal) and Peck (Smashing). Travels would all turn into Sprint and a severely-End heavy form of Hover. Also, all their chat would be turned into random "bock-bock" and "cluck-cluck" words.
|
maybe the devs can figure out a way to make the monitor punch you in the nose for running. I bet roidson gets mad at stalkers for having hide and not facing a regen scrp talon to talon.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rodion
The real reason is more like they saw how unbalanced the hero ATs were and made a serious attempt to make more balanced archetypes. It's a continuing pattern you see with the addition of Kinetic Melee and Electrical Control.
They've realized that if they make new things more powerful than old things they have a never-ending escalation of expectations. New things need to be different, but they need to be comparable in power -- and that's a very hard thing to do when things are different. The tiniest details can be exploited and disrupt the balance. Villain ATs in general are more balanced than hero ATs in terms of offense and defense. Brutes have more damage potential than tanks, which is balanced by less defense. Corruptors are like defenders, but with more damage and less "defenderishness." Stalkers are like melee blasters, with relatively weak defenses compared to scrappers, but strong compared to blasters, so it's a more-or-less even trade of more defense for shorter-ranged melee attacks. Dominators get more damage than controllers, but lack defensive capabilities. Masterminds are like controllers without the control, but more damage, and similar defense. Over time the hero ATs have been buffed in big and small ways in order to attain some rough kind of balance. Blasters were all offense and no defense -- that's been dealt with somewhat with the new Defiance, more hit points, etc. Tankers and defenders have been given some small offensive buffs. Controllers were given Containment for more damage (a long time ago now). Scrappers have always been the most balanced AT, and have remained more or less unchanged. The problem is that in the current PvP everything is predicated on extremes -- you need to do the most damage in the shortest amount of time, or be able to soak huge alphas to survive. This is my real problem with PvP -- it's nothing like fights in the comic books, which were long, drawn out affairs. Players want PvP fights to be over in a few seconds, and with good reason: if it takes forever to beat your opponent down they can easily escape and no one ever wins. This is why PvP hasn't been successful in this game. People really hate getting ganked in two seconds. And they hate it when opponents run away. Trying to achieve a balance between these two poles is very difficult due to the extremes of the damage blasters can dish out and tankers can take. The devs tried to address this with the PvP revamp, with all the obnoxious heal decay, travel suppression, and the like. But no one is happy with the result. The current solutions don't work. What needs to change is the motivations for the players. Travel suppression is bogus -- players should not want to run away from a fight; they shouldn't be forced to stay. There should be some in-game motivation for standing your ground. On the other side, getting defeated currently has too high a penalty. In PvP fights getting defeated should be akin to going down for the count in boxing, and then getting back up to fight again. This could be done by leaving all your defensive toggles on when you're defeated by a player, and giving everyone a self-res power that can be used only when defeated by an other player. Then you can be up and fighting again instantly. To get a point of rep you need to knock down another player five or so times. If you flee from a fair fight, you lose rep and your name is displayed in yellow with a chicken icon for the next day. Determining whether a player is fleeing from a fair fight would be tricky: a lone corruptor running away from six blasters is not cowardice. Similarly, six blasters ganking a lone corruptor should reduce the rep of all the blasters involved because it's not a fair fight. If you lose rep in a fight, you have no chance for a PvP recipe drop. In short, PvP should be made more like a boxing match rather than an assassination. By providing in-game motivations to abide by a certain code of conduct, PvP could be a lot more fair, fun and engaging, at the same time being much more like the rollicking fights you see in the comics and movies. |
this sounds alot like the lolfiteklubber's pvp system so No.
Look, pvp post i13 wasn't perfect but it was difficult, fast paced, and semi-successful and had plenty of room to grow and improve on in the right direction.
it doesn't need to be slowed down. it doesn't need to be more like a boxing match. it needs a system that is implemented using logic and reason that is just as fast paced, fun, and rewarding as it was pre nerf.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Quote:
ummm...These are horrible, RPing, FiteKlub, Tru Warrir ideas, are you honestly saying that there should:|
Originally Posted by Rodion
To get a point of rep you need to knock down another player five or so times. If you flee from a fair fight, you lose rep and your name is displayed in yellow with a chicken icon for the next day. Determining whether a player is fleeing from a fair fight would be tricky: a lone corruptor running away from six blasters is not cowardice. Similarly, six blasters ganking a lone corruptor should reduce the rep of all the blasters involved because it's not a fair fight. If you lose rep in a fight, you have no chance for a PvP recipe drop.
In short, PvP should be made more like a boxing match rather than an assassination. By providing in-game motivations to abide by a certain code of conduct, PvP could be a lot more fair, fun and engaging, at the same time being much more like the rollicking fights you see in the comics and movies. |
a) be no teams because teaming and getting kills reduces rep due to being on said team
b) if you try to evade or break LOS, as any sane person would do if trying to not die, then you lose rep.
c) 5 times to kill one person to get rep, that would just allow people to get knocked down 4 times then zone out.
c) everyone should just stand and slug it out, toe-to-toe, because that is what each AT's specialty is right?? I mean a blaster isn't really supposed to be a ranged attacker, it is supposed to stand there with it's 1606 capped hp and slug it out with the tank/scrapper/brute with 2400-3500 hp that may be a regen with instant healing running or w/e, no matter that they have almost double the HP. Shouldn't we juay ask the devs to also remove inspiration use in all PvP, because if it is not a power you have then you shouldnt be able to use them, Heroes in comic books don't carry little inps around with them............ Riiiiiiiiight, again just more horrible ideas.
How about this, we just ask the devs to take away all travel powers, all ways to team in a PvP zone and make everyone that zones into a PvP zone actually just zone into an arena cage match that is just big enough to fit those 2 toons in melee range and they go at it and when that fight is over they auto zone into some other cage with some other person......lol.
This crap is the mentality that got the Devs to put in the anti-spike code in i-13 that was removed because it is one of the stupidest things I have every heard of . No matter what a team should always be able to kill the lone, tru-warrir.
It is pretty easy to figure out, if you are a solo player attempting to fight a team, you will be defeated, so get a team of your own and co-ordinate and not attempt to solo fight a bunch of different battles all over the map.
The draw of this games PvP is the movement, why ruin it with having to make people stand around and Fireklub it out?
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
Also? The suggestions in this thread are just stoopid except for Psoma's. Think about the potential of barnyard scratchfests in arena? That sounds pretty damn fun. You could add a whole new dimension for Rp'ers... do a barnyard match( have to add a new map) and the objective can be "Tame the rooster"!! The rooster can be ... HMMMMM I am not sure but something lustworthy and dont forget to add a badge or 2 as well.. Game ON!!! OO and then you could have an arena match named "Fried Chicken!!" Import the big lava map from Cap A diable trial and any player that falls in the lava gets "fried". Objective being the team that does the most damage to the boss in the middle wins. Those are good ideas ,all the npc's on that map look like fiery chickens so appropriate and there would be little coding involved . This "Fried Chicken" needs to be implemented A.S.A.P!
I am going to make sure and start a "Fried Chicken " thread in player suggestions. Please show your support for an objective based match with badges and a roleplaying aspect over in the appropriate subforum.Headed to " Player suggestions and Ideas " now!!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Neeto
well ok it's more like chickens running around and some have "can't touch me bubble" others are stealthy chickens that scratch ur back real good, 'Locks' chickens can make ur chicken run around like you got ur head chopped off chicken, other chickens have TP and icy things, all the other classes in WoW are described above. Played wow a lot. i gots a 80 ret pally geared with S2 and S3 stuff from whenever and a lock with decent stuff. That game's PvE and story is pretty good but the PvP is sooo bad cuz all fotms are one trick ponies that takes no brain to use especially in duels. Now Starcraft 2 is a different story
|
Why don't they just give assigned predetermined class roles.Why dont they do THAT in PVP here along with something like the 'Fried Chicken"? Because so far all they seem to do is piss people off that actually pvp in this game. Doncha think it would be about par for the course to add 3 or 4 things to INTEREST all players and be half done YET still fun?? Thats a better idea than 'Fried Chicken" arena option! WOW .. am on a roll!!
What are some more bright ideas to interest all walks of COX ( no pun intended)players to pvp?
Disclaimer: All you dev fanbois in beta... I know who you are.
Edited to change some phrasing so mod12 doesnt have a pms fit at me.
???
I dont understand