Do All My Tankers Need Tough?

I have one of every type of Tanker in City of Heroes. I'm hearing all this talk about softcaps (which I am clueless about) and maximum resistances and such. A few of the guides I read suggest taking Tough even with types that I didn't think would need them (like Invulnerability).

I know some Tankers benefit from Tough, like Fire and Dark. But do all my Tankers need it? I have such tight builds with them anyways, and endurance is always a concern.

And for the record, my only Tanker at 50 is my Stone/Stone.

Do they need it? No. Will they benefit from it? Yes.

Smashing and Lethal are the two most common types of damage in the game, so increasing your resistance to them is always a good thing. On top of that, Tough is also a prequisite for Weave, which provides a nice increase to defense.

Inv, for example, gains a particularly large benefit from Tough because it already has very good SL resistance. Due to the way resistance (and defense for that matter) works, the more you have to begin with, the more each additional point is worth. With Tough, you can pretty much ignore these damage types as you'll be at (or at least very close to, I forget the exact numbers) the cap of 90% resistance. Inv also benefits greatly from Weave, as it stacks nicely with the defense from Tough Hide and Invincibility.

In the end, it really comes down to how tough (sorry, bad pun...) you want your tank to be. If you want to just run normal missions with a good team supporting you, then in general, you can probably get by without it, particularly on a Stone/* tanker. If you want to be able to jump into +4x8 mobs with no support and laugh at their pathetic attempts to damage you, then Tough and Weave are very useful.

The softcap you keep hearing about is only in regards to defense. The term is used to talk about a point of defense where you can add more, but there is no benefit to doing so. Enemies have 50% chance to hit us, and they will always have a minimum of 5% chance. Anything defense over 45%, then, is wasted.

But PhroX sums it up very well when he says each percent of defense or resistance does more than the percent it builds on.

The last 5% of defense does as much for you as the first 40%.

The last 10% of resistance does as much for you as the first 80%.

Tough helps a lot with everything but Stone/*, as mentioned above. Weave helps with everything, but is at its best when stacked with enough +Defense to softcap you to all three positions (melee, ranged, AOE) or at least smashing/lethal. You can get by without either. However, I'd still recommend it for any Tanker, Brute, or Scrapper and it isn't terrible for other sets if you've got the powers to burn.

Take a Fire/* Tanker with 46.8% S/L resistance (assuming 3 resistance SOs). For every 100pts of S/L he is hit with, he takes 53.2pts. Add Tough (again, with 3 resistance SOs) and that 46.8% becomes 70.2%. Now he only takes 29.8pts per 100pts dealt. Damage has been reduced by 44% by adding Tough. S/L being the most common damage, this is very useful.

Take an Invuln/* with 66.6% S/L resistance, currently being hit for 33.4pts per 100pts dealt. Add Tough and that goes up to 90% (softcapped). Now he's only taking 10pts per 100pts dealt. In this case, admittedly the extreme, S/L damage has been reduced by 70% by adding Tough.

Pure defense sets will benefit the least from it, but it's still nice there. If nothing else, it shaves off 23.4% of incoming S/L damage and serves as a prereq for Weave.

Every tank I make gets tough... EVERY tank..

Thanks for the advice. I've already given my Fire Tanker Tough, and I'm probably going to give it to my Dark Tanker and Shield Tanker (who is unfortunately my softest one at the moment). I guess the next big question is how many Endurance reductions does everyone put in their shields?

I typically put in one SO or IO's worth of End Redux in my shields unless I'm going for set bonuses.


If it's resistance/defense IO set I'll typically grab the following IO's, for example:

Resistance

Resistance/End Redux

Resistance/Recharge

Resistance/End Redux/Recharge

Going with a level 35 set would net you around 41.29% end redux compared to 36.7% for a level 35 end redux IO, or 42.4% for a level 50 end redux IO. All of the above would drop a toggle using .21 end/sec down to .15 end/sec.

Typically your biggest end user will be your attacks. Make sure you've got them adequately slotted for end redux.

Depends on the build, really. I made an Invulnerability build that doesn't have it, yet he still has about S/L resists as my Fiery Aura tank that has Tough... but I also built him to get in the low 40s defense to S/L with one target, as well as Energy/Dark. He tanks quite well, though Psychic attacks are still a problem, even though I got him more resist and defense there. Tough wouldn't make a difference there, though.

Tough would make him even more resilient, but the question is whether it's needed. Not every set needs it. Heck, it ups the resilience of Fiery Aura quite a bit, but I can usually run on a team with just Weave going. Tough is nice when I run into defense debuffs, though.

Short answer: Nearly all competitive builds for all tanker powerset combos include Tough and Weave.

I found it really beneifts my Fire, Dark and Willpower tanks, since it moves them from 50% Resistance to around 75% resistance for Smashing and Lethal. Thats half the incoming damage from Freak Swipers etc.

On an Invulnerable tanker, I'd say its less necessary. 90% S/L resist does look great on paper (instead of 67% or so from slotting the native Invulnerable powers), but since you're also packing 20 to 30% S/L Defence you can probably get by without it in almost all situations.

I think it depends partly on how you play. The weekend they released Dual Pistols on live, I spent most of the day tanking for pickup groups of mostly low-level DP blasters and offense-based DP defenders, plus the odd scrapper. That day, I wished I had Tough and Weave, because I was getting zero help from the team. If you need your tanks to excel in a vacuum like that, definitely take Tough and Weave.

My main tank, a level 50 Inv/Axe, has never had the Fighting pool, and I've not regretted it. I have a lot of attacks six-slotted with Crushing Impact for psi resist, and three AoEs six-slotted with Obliteration, and my shields are four-slotted with Impervium Armor including the psi resist one. She's worked out just fine. I wouldn't say she's squishy, but she's not soft-capped for defense, hard-capped for S/L resist, or anything else. But she provides a fine focal point for enemy aggro and friendly buffing and healing, and is a lot more fun for me to play than my recently respeced Willpower/DM who does have Tough and Weave, is really hard to kill, but hasn't had slots or powers to do much else at level 32. But she'd probably handle the team full of DP noobs just fine.

Hmmm I would say all tanks should have tough. Weave on the other hand is good but not needed for tanks only with resistance.

Most of my tanks have ended up getting Tough. I didn't bother on my Stone tank.

I debated about adding Weave on my Fire/Fire tank so I took it over to test and tried doing missions with and without Weave in the build. Even without additional set bonuses, Weave slowed down the damage enough to make me feel it was worth while on the tank.

I've noticed a huge difference with my Fire Tanker, but my Invulnerability Tanker has (knock on wood) not had any problems even on +4 runs. I guess the last reason I'm not a crazy awesome Tanker is the fact that I've never really explored IOs. I've played since before CoV and never really got into the crafting system. I know it makes a huge difference, but I've never honestly given it a try. I used to do Hamidon runs for better enhancers.

Every Single Tank I have ever built has tough and weave. Even the Stone I built for my wife...