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I'm going to hazard a guess that you're the kind of guy who doesn't slot endurance reduction in his attacks.
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Originally Posted by tarrantm
It's just at the lower end of investment that we seem to disagree, and I am still convinced that at SO performance levels, /Fire and /Elec outperforms /Dark due to the lack of an End bar refill power in the set.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
After seeing Dechs vids i'm in process of a dark/fire tank myself. He's 28 atm. Yet to play him tho. Waiting til 32 so i can IO him. I've always wanted a dark tank but listened to how bad they were. Now that ive seen otherwise, its on like donkey kong. 
And on a side note, can your stoner run 28mph in GA? Mine can.
Ok, so ive gotten the oppertunity to play on a friends lvl 41 claws/DA. I have to say, its the most fun ive had on a brute in a while. However, the end usage is absolutely insane. His build is all SOs and he has only 1 slot in stamina, so that could be the reason. But I think i should be able to build recovery pretty easy. But aside from that, the survivability was alot better then i had expected, and most importantly I had alot of fun. So I think ive decided to make my own Claw/DA once GR comes out.
Thanks to everyone in this thread who offered information. Esp. to Dechs, whose video inspired me to consider a /DA
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Lol it's a Brute, acc, end red and recharge is pretty much all the slotting it needs, in that order. But what didn't help was that my /Dark started off with Stone/. No amount of end slotting ever makes that get better until slotting 2 purple IOs in every power I can for +recov.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'm going to hazard a guess that you're the kind of guy who doesn't slot endurance reduction in his attacks.
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Having played several /Dark Scrappers and pretty much every non-stone armor set in the game, I find Dark to be moderately hungrier than average as far as endurance... the big thing that I find skews my own perception against it is that, not coincidentally, I tend to gravitate toward sets with +recovery/+end powers. With Willpower being one of the darlings of the past year, I'm not surprised that a lot of people find Dark end-heavy by comparison.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'm going to hazard a guess that you're the kind of guy who doesn't slot endurance reduction in his attacks.
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My SO'd Katana/Dark Scrapper bottoms out after a single spawn of +0/x5 Council with no bosses (barring blue inspirations), and she has at least one endredux in every single power in her primary and secondary except OG and Build Up. This happens over a broad range of defensive power usage. She hasn't been respecced since just after ED, so her build could use some small tweaks, but I don't see any of them making her drastically more efficient. However, I have non-/Dark melee characters who do as poorly or worse. Not coincidentally, she also does better than most of my characters against those spawns, so I don't consider it particularly off.
On the other hand, my minimally frankenslotted Dark/Dark Scrapper can go pretty much indefinitely while barely touching Dark Consumption. Primary makes quite a bit of difference, and even some basic IOs go a long way.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
/em gets onto soapbox
Honestly, I don't understand why people still use SOs at all. They are MORE expensive than IOs for less benefit. I, personally, find trying to determining which one gives what bonus and finding the right origin to be more of a pain than crafting, but other people don't, and that is fine. The expiring in the middle of a mission has not only gotten me killed, but also rendered me incapable of finishing the mission without spending millions of inf on replacements. That doesn't happen with IOs.
Evidence on cost and benefit:
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So you can at level 17 slot something that gives higher bonus than a +3 SO. A crappy level 20 acc/dam/End or dam/end/rech IO can cost you 34k, a 25 SO will cost you 30k. |
"Better" than a +3 SO: Level 35/40 commons (35 are 1% lower, 40s are .4% higher) Level 24+ Duals (.1% better) Level 20+ Triples (.1% better) Better than a +3 DO: Level 15 Common (.2% better) Level 13 Dual (1.7% better) Level 11 Triple (.9% better) Cost: SO for 1 slot of accuracy from level 22 through level 50: 260k Level 35 IO memorized accuracy: 33k + salvage Level 35 IO not-memorized: 61k + salvage Level 24 IO dual: 36k + salvage Level 20 IO triple: 34k + salvage "average" cost for 1 acc/dam/end/recharge SO: 38k (level 25s are 30k level 50s are 48k to 60k |
The 24-26 duals are dirt cheap and there's far more selection and you can still slot them 1 level sooner than SOs (except the Yin-os or the ones that drop when you kill an AV).
By the time you're 28 and replace that L25 SO with a L30 you're spending another 35k or 36k. and again and again and yet one more time before you're finally 47.
Seriously, why waste the money on something with lower enhancement values that expires on you in the middle of a fight?
/em gets off soapbox
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Because not everybody has the time to devote to crafting in this game. (I don't speak as one of those people, just defending those who are.)
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
/em gets onto soapbox
Honestly, I don't understand why people still use SOs at all. ... Seriously, why waste the money on something with lower enhancement values that expires on you in the middle of a fight? /em gets off soapbox |
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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/this, though I tend to retrofit with common IOs. Plus, of course, they drop "ready to use." |
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Because not everybody has the time to devote to crafting in this game. (I don't speak as one of those people, just defending those who are.)
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Personally, if I "need" sets to "work right," something's broken AFAIC. (I don't mean as in "an optional way to do something," like KB IO vs Acrobatics with that, either.) I tend to want to know how something works with SOs/commons (I have recent 50s that are mostly SOs still, TBH) versus what a mix of sets will do.
(Somewhat related to me not bothering with most forum builds - don't care what a few hundred million or whatever will do @50 when I'm trying to improve something at 22-35.)
(DA wise - DA/SS brute, SS/DA tank, DM/DA scrapper, Spine/DA scrapper... I really have to get them out of the mid-late 20s, though of the four, so far the DM/DA doesn't seem to need END at all.)
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My DM/DA went without stamina for a long time, might still be actually, prolly is but what helped was dark consumption that was hasted plus atleast one end red per attack and multihitting multiple targets with aoes as best as possible. Sometimes you don't get what you want as far as end rec goes as mobs die just before you use dark consumption which is something to watch for in teams. It's better to run into new groups that your just about to fight and use it.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
(DA wise - DA/SS brute, SS/DA tank, DM/DA scrapper, Spine/DA scrapper... I really have to get them out of the mid-late 20s, though of the four, so far the DM/DA doesn't seem to need END at all.)
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Before IOs, Dark Armor was a set you really had to have both your eyes open when you took it, or you would find yourself quickly overwhelmed.
When IOs first hit the scene, we were gifted with Knockback protection IOs. With Acrobatics no longer a necessity, Dark became more forgiving, and more people could take it without auto-sucking.
Then, they introduced the Accurate sets, and the Theft of Essence +Endurance Proc was born.
A singe -kb IO, and the Theft of Essence proc in Dark Regeneration, is all anyone needs to not suck with Dark Armor. It still takes time and practice to really get GOOD with the set, but it no longer has such a steep learning curve.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
Baseline, no slot end consumption on brutes (da/ela/fa). All running all available toggles, second number w/tough and weave. Third number is w/1 L50 basic IO per armor toggle, 2 per offensive toggle (Dmg aura/CoF), also w/tough and weave.
DA: 2/s - 2.65/s - 1.7/s
ELA: 1.25/s - 1.9/s - 1.25/s
FA: 1.04/s - 1.69/s - 1.11/s
Even basic slotting for end reduction puts DA over the baseline 1.67 recovery. It is, in fact, an end hungry set. Is that still a debate? You can frankenslot the toggles to get down around 1.5/s, but that's not really within standard levelling parameters. DA does* have some options. You can drop cloak of darkness for combat jumping. You can also skip CoF in favor of OG. Giving up CoD/CoF will be walking away from what makes the set unique, not really a fair trade off IMO. Heavy spawns running OG will run into a separate issue as well. The ticking damage of OG is based on each mob hit (correct me if I'm wrong), that damage, couple with standard incoming damage will leave you relying more heavily on dark regeneration. DR's whopping 33.8% baseline cost is ridiculous. Even touching the DR cap your looking at about 18%.
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Wanted to chime in with these posts Dechs. It would be much more relevent to the topic if you posted experience as a scrapper, those are the numbers that brutes share. I run a FM/WP brute, she mows down spawns. I wouldn't take her accomplishments over to the tank forum as a point of reference for how FM functions for tankers. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'm going to hazard a guess that you're the kind of guy who doesn't slot endurance reduction in his attacks.
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A well slotted tank should run about 70% s/l, 30% en, 60% ne, 45% f/c, 30% tox, 75% psi. Also with 15% pos. defense across the board. Not gamebreaking, but solid resist numbers. You'll also be getting more mileage out of DR with a tankers higher HP/HP cap.
The same brute will run alot closer to 50% s/l, 25 en, 45% neg, 35% f/c, 23% tox, 55% psi, 11%ish pos. defenses. That's running impervium armors/lotgs, which I would consider optimal for DA. Either tank or brute could slot to the neck for positional defense. Again that's not a solid measurement of performance of the set. Nearly any character with infinite patience for slotting can achieve the same.
In closing, DA is not bad per se. It's got esoteric resists, it's got some unique melee tools, its got a monsterous heal, and it flat out looks stunning (an overlooked bonus). It is not a toon I would roll on a welfare budget given the high cost of toggles vs. the annoyance of micromanaging toggles. I've played into the forties, but found another shiny toon to play.
So, how bad is the loss of Fury from the control-toggles?
I find on my brutes I tend to rely on getting hit to build Fury faster (yes, I do have Brawl on auto).
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It's great when running solo at x/8.|
Originally Posted by Ghostwind_EU
So, how bad is the loss of Fury from the control-toggles?
I find on my brutes I tend to rely on getting hit to build Fury faster (yes, I do have Brawl on auto). |
Issues do come up in groups when you don't have aggro from well over the 10 mob-OG-hit limit to provide you with Fury, or there's another Brute/Tanker in the group or the Dom/Troller is doing too good a job. At which point it all depends on whether you have a buzzsaw like build or not. If you have a stacking mitigation primary like I have on my Stone/Dark, I'm looking at about a 15-20% difference in Fury generation (if you use your slow activating attacks) vs. say a DM/DA build.
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Yeah, but I have posted with experience with a brute. Dechs isn't the only person in CoHland to essentially max out a DA. My DA/DM tanker was fully IOed and pulling off crazy stuff in the neighborhood of what Dechs' video showed well before he put that out(no, I am not trying to take anything away from Dechs, he is a nice fellow, and deserves respect, if for no other reason than because he has the patience for advanced math.) Granted, my brute isn't 50 yet, but it also isn't rocking any IOs for help yet either. End use hasn't been any worse than any of my other brutes as of yet. I waited to get DS until after getting stam, slotted my attacks accordingly, as well as DR. |
Originally Posted by prev1
Wanted to chime in with these posts Dechs. It would be much more relevent to the topic if you posted experience as a scrapper, those are the numbers that brutes share. I run a FM/WP brute, she mows down spawns. I wouldn't take her accomplishments over to the tank forum as a point of reference for how FM functions for tankers.
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Originally Posted by prev1
A well slotted tank should run about 70% s/l, 30% en, 60% ne, 45% f/c, 30% tox, 75% psi. Also with 15% pos. defense across the board. Not gamebreaking, but solid resist numbers. You'll also be getting more mileage out of DR with a tankers higher HP/HP cap.
The same brute will run alot closer to 50% s/l, 25 en, 45% neg, 35% f/c, 23% tox, 55% psi, 11%ish pos. defenses. That's running impervium armors/lotgs, which I would consider optimal for DA. Either tank or brute could slot to the neck for positional defense. Again that's not a solid measurement of performance of the set. Nearly any character with infinite patience for slotting can achieve the same. |
The general concensus is not to slot for positional defense for DA, and your slotting is not what all would consider optimal for DA.
It is interesting to bring up the "optimal" slotting for DA, as there are different roles that people take with brutes. Some make them like scrappers on PCP, others make them like
squishy tanks that hit really really hard. The "optimal" IO slotting is going to be different for both of them.
And just for clarification, brutes have the same HP/Res caps as tanks. Tanks just have more Res out of the box. So your theory of tanks getting more mileage out of DR is null.
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Originally Posted by prev1
In closing, DA is not bad per se. It's got esoteric resists, it's got some unique melee tools, its got a monsterous heal, and it flat out looks stunning (an overlooked bonus). It is not a toon I would roll on a welfare budget given the high cost of toggles vs. the annoyance of micromanaging toggles. I've played into the forties, but found another shiny toon to play.
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I could do the same thing with stone, inv, wp, SD and fire. They all have their strong and weak points. The FoTM is SD, which I hate with a passion and consider to be much more end heavy than DA. Keep your math to yourself, I am going from my own experience with a level 50 SS/SD brute with basic IOs, heavily slotted for end redux.
That said, I will be the first to admit that I got annoyed and quit playing the toon before I got a solid handle on it. I just never really got into the set. It looks neat, is capable of some really nifty stuff, but I just hate it. Most people really dig the set, but not I.
Which leads me to the point I make when anyone badmouths any set. Every set has some nifty tools, some sets require more attention than others. That's all there is to it. None are inherently better than the others, if you learn to play it, you will be just as able to survive in most circumstances, and will better than the rest in others. That is the design. The end usage in DA is fine, if it was set and forget, then you would have a crapton of DA tanktrollers out there. It's like the people that complain about FA, it has tools that make it work great, if you learn to use em.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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My experience is relevant in the context of comparison. If a DA tanker can do things the other kinds of tanks can and some things they can't, then the same should ring true for brutes. All brute secondaries suffer the same AT modifier differences from tanker sets equally. My experience is proof that a DA tanker can be as survivable any other tank. That experience translates directly to brutes in that they can be built comparably.|
Originally Posted by prev1
Wanted to chime in with these posts Dechs. It would be much more relevent to the topic if you posted experience as a scrapper, those are the numbers that brutes share. I run a FM/WP brute, she mows down spawns. I wouldn't take her accomplishments over to the tank forum as a point of reference for how FM functions for tankers.
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If you brought the FM brute's accomplishments into the tanker forum within the context of being better or comparable to elec or war mace, then yes, that is a point of reference for how FM functions for tankers. Since the AT mods change but the powersets do not, FM should compare to ELM in more or less in the same manner on brutes and tanks and scrappers.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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This is slightly disingenuous in general, but is fairly valid in the particular case of your tank in that the reason your tank is so good is the softcapped defence, and most of that comes from IOs which are unaffected by AT mods. The problem is that what defence you do get from powers will reduce, and you'll need to slot more IOs to softcap, so you may have to compromise the build somewhat.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
My experience is relevant in the context of comparison. If a DA tanker can do things the other kinds of tanks can and some things they can't, then the same should ring true for brutes. All brute secondaries suffer the same AT modifier differences from tanker sets equally. My experience is proof that a DA tanker can be as survivable any other tank. That experience translates directly to brutes in that they can be built comparably.
If you brought the FM brute's accomplishments into the tanker forum within the context of being better or comparable to elec or war mace, then yes, that is a point of reference for how FM functions for tankers. Since the AT mods change but the powersets do not, FM should compare to ELM in more or less in the same manner on brutes and tanks and scrappers. |
<nitpick> FM DOES of course change from tank to brute combustion -> cremate.
Endurance sustainability is possible even on a dark/SM which I did as a tank as I didn't fancy having no fury, I am softcapped to S/L too.
While I think a dark tank can be as good as any other, a brute might not be as good as some other sets on the same IO investment, but can still be pretty powerful.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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It doesn't do anything of the sort. Tanks have more hitpoints out of the box too, and as such get to their hitpoint cap faster and easier than a Brute (I think I've only hitpoint capped my Brute once when I was the sole Brute in a group full of Corruptors), which makes his point on DR quite valid.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
And just for clarification, brutes have the same HP/Res caps as tanks. Tanks just have more Res out of the box. So your theory of tanks getting more mileage out of DR is null.
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| Keep your math to yourself, I am going from my own experience with a level 50 SS/SD brute with basic IOs, heavily slotted for end redux. |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
My experience is relevant in the context of comparison. If a DA tanker can do things the other kinds of tanks can and some things they can't, then the same should ring true for brutes. All brute secondaries suffer the same AT modifier differences from tanker sets equally. My experience is proof that a DA tanker can be as survivable any other tank. That experience translates directly to brutes in that they can be built comparably.
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| If you brought the FM brute's accomplishments into the tanker forum within the context of being better or comparable to elec or war mace, then yes, that is a point of reference for how FM functions for tankers. Since the AT mods change but the powersets do not, FM should compare to ELM in more or less in the same manner on brutes and tanks and scrappers. |
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Originally Posted by Minotaur
<nitpick> FM DOES of course change from tank to brute combustion -> cremate.
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Originally Posted by tarrantm
Well there is the Combustion difference...
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Tanks have more hit points out of the box, yes, but brutes have the same cap, which means they can get just as many hit points as a tank, which means that they get the same mileage out of DR. His point was that brutes have a lower hp cap, which they do not. |
Originally Posted by tarrantm
It doesn't do anything of the sort. Tanks have more hitpoints out of the box too, and as such get to their hitpoint cap faster and easier than a Brute (I think I've only hitpoint capped my Brute once when I was the sole Brute in a group full of Corruptors), which makes his point on DR quite valid.
The guy presents a valid breakdown of endurance usage between resist sets and your response is to bury your head in the sand. All I can do is lol at that. It's classic and obvious denial. |
The guy presented a bunch of numbers and said that you can't efficiently run a DA. I am saying that I leveled one and that I did.
Giving real world experience versus presenting math problems is not sticking my head in the sand, in fact, it is just the opposite. Good try tho.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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It's harder for Brutes to hit the hitpoint cap because they start with about 350 less hitpoints than a Tanker. |
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Tanks have more hit points out of the box, yes, but brutes have the same cap, which means they can get just as many hit points as a tank, which means that they get the same mileage out of DR. His point was that brutes have a lower hp cap, which they do not.
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As for them having the same hitpoint cap, I'll get back to this later...
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The guy presented a bunch of numbers and said that you can't efficiently run a DA. I am saying that I leveled one and that I did. Giving real world experience versus presenting math problems is not sticking my head in the sand, in fact, it is just the opposite. Good try tho. |
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get back to what later, they have the same cap. is it harder for brutes to hit that cap than it is for tanks, yes, but it can be done. |
Originally Posted by tarrantm
It's harder for Brutes to hit the hitpoint cap because they start with about 350 less hitpoints than a Tanker.
As for them having the same hitpoint cap, I'll get back to this later... No, you merely said har har, my opinion overrules your facts, so keep your facts to yourself. That isn't a valid argument. |
What I said wasn't opinion, what I said was a fact. I have done what he said you couldn't do. You can throw all the math you want at it, it doesn't change the fact that he was incorrect in his assumption.
He said, here is some math that says playing a DA brute is going to be much more painful on endurance than any other set, . I responded, well, after playing a DA brute, and having played other sets, I didn't notice it being any more painful on end than any other set.
That plainly contradicts the "fact" that he was trying to prove with his math. So, you can throw all the math at it you want, he was wrong.
It's kind of like when I was grouped with some folks on some task forces the other day. Kept hearing all this crap that DA couldnt be end efficient even with IOs, and then joked about how many blues i probably had to suck down to keep up. Someone even passed me some blues thinking I was running out of end. After 4 tfs, I didnt run out of end once, and didn't pop a single blue.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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That it can be done doesn't equate to happens as frequently. As I said, I've hit that number once on my Brute and I don't recall how many Cold Corrs it took. On my Tank it happens far more often despite me playing him extremely infrequently.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
get back to what later, they have the same cap. is it harder for brutes to hit that cap than it is for tanks, yes, but it can be done.
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What I said wasn't opinion, what I said was a fact. I have done what he said you couldn't do. You can throw all the math you want at it, it doesn't change the fact that he was incorrect in his assumption. He said, here is some math that says playing a DA brute is going to be much more painful on endurance than any other set, . I responded, well, after playing a DA brute, and having played other sets, I didn't notice it being any more painful on end than any other set. |
I double checked his numbers
1.4 End/Sec for the basic toggles for DA (leaving out CoF and OG which he included to give 2.0 End/Sec)
1.25 End/Sec for Elec
1.04 End/Sec for Fire
That's fact.
It's also fact that DA, unlike the other 2 resist sets, doesn't have an endurance recovery power like Consume or Power Sink.
Your experience is an anecdote. It's only factual in your own mind.
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| That plainly contradicts the "fact" that he was trying to prove with his math. So, you can throw all the math at it you want, he was wrong. |
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| It's kind of like when I was grouped with some folks on some task forces the other day. Kept hearing all this crap that DA couldnt be end efficient even with IOs, and then joked about how many blues i probably had to suck down to keep up. Someone even passed me some blues thinking I was running out of end. After 4 tfs, I didnt run out of end once, and didn't pop a single blue. |
ok, you win the interwebs, DA is terrible and is soooooo much worse than all the other sets and is the biggest endwhore out there. no one could possibly play DA and not have the soulcrushing endurance problems that everyone says it has.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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I realize the post was inflammatory, specifically to Dechs. I do apologize for that. As far as "optimal" slotting, I was referring to within the set. Obviously I would not recommend someone only slot thier armor toggles. Outside of those, scads of survival tools come into play. Notably def. slotting. That has little/nothing to do with DA and is achievable with any AT or combo.
Please show me an /DA brute with tank hp/resist numbers, I'll gladly retract my thoughts on the comparisons.
I really have to agree. They've done a re-jiggering at one point, but it's still very high. Much of this goes back to the simple fact that the set has a great many tools in power form that do very special, and many times powerful, things on their own. The much berated cloak of fear can indeed make many foes near you quake rather than hit, and they'll stay put for the beating for a bit too.
Dark regeneration can heal you by ridiculous ammounts.
Cloak of darkness gives unsuppressed stealth.
Death shroud is a vary good damage toggle.
All in all you have a set that can be less careful about where it starts fights, come back from near death, stop 10-20 low-tier enemies from punching their face much, all the while damaging them...then if they go down they can recover completely. This with the best psy resistance, resistance to toxic, and resistance to some nastier side effects. It looks darned good on paper.
It also has access to dark melee, which supplies an endurance recovery tool.
All this seems to mean the set needs a weakness, and the devs seem to have chosen endurance.
The problem is that the real-game iteration of the set just isn't the same as the paper version. The toggles miss, and overlap. Big foes are unaffected by them, yet eat up headcounts on that 'max 10' list. Many foes actually prefer range, or wander when stunned, making the melee auras less potent. Linked aggro makes unsuppressed stealth less potent. The exotic resistances are related to damage types not faced as often. Though dark melee can be paired up with it, and was probably designed in conjunction, it should work for itself, and never be even thought of in relation to dark armor's balance.
I do hope the devs look at it again; it is potent armor, but the endurance tools the devs have laid out as extraneous/optional do indeed make such a difference in normalizing/boosting the set that it could use a look-see. I can do awesome things, but before the +recovery/stamina acquisitions, my 'toggle management' consisted of slotting everything for endurance, still having trouble, and wondering what powers I HAD to run because it was more appealing to leave them off. Giving players powerful tools that they can't afford to use is a troublesome design perspective from an enjoyment perspective, and can cause frustration.
The nice thing in the case of dark armor is that making it affordable endurance wise doesn't become overpowered in light of using 'optional' tools like +end/+recovery bonuses, using the fitness pool, or possessing outside endurance management skills. Having 'too much' endurance is less troublesome than changing how much a player regenerates, resistance/defense values, or adjusting other such modifiers. It simply changes pacing, pacing already being overcome by means dubbed 'not necessary.'