DA can be very tough. IOs help an awful lot. Knockback protection IOs can help avoid needing Acrobatics, which is fairly endurance expensive. The Theft of Essence chance for +Endurance proc is super helpful. Dark Regeneration eats a lot of endurance without it.
I personally much prefer Oppressive Gloom to Cloak of Fear because the endurance cost of CoF can be troublesome with such a toggle-heavy armor set.
By Dechs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69TK0oACdXI
Video shows him soloing huge spawns of Arachnos, Malta, Knives and Carnies, as well as 4 simultaneous DE Giant Monsters.
Also, long discussion on the tanker forums including discussions of Master Of Badges. End result: Dark Armor is not bad at all, but individual players of dark armor characters may be. Individual dark armor builds may be.
The stun aura and fear aura do not hurt your fury nearly as bad as some make it out.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I find slapping to hit debuff sets into cloak of fear to be much more helpful than gloom because then it helps a little against bosses and lieuts, whereas oppressive gloom never will do anything to them unless you have stuns to stack with it.
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Originally Posted by Gearsinger
I personally much prefer Oppressive Gloom to Cloak of Fear because the endurance cost of CoF can be troublesome with such a toggle-heavy armor set.
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"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
So it sounds like its not broken, but rather hard to play?
That will just make it all the more fun
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Gah! I let someone beat me to a Dark Armor thread! I must be slipping...|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
By Dechs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69TK0oACdXI Video shows him soloing huge spawns of Arachnos, Malta, Knives and Carnies, as well as 4 simultaneous DE Giant Monsters. |
I've actually been able to hold the aggro of 6 DE GMs on my own. Did that to herd for the Hami raid, but they weren't ready for about ten minutes after I started herding.
I've also held the aggro of Reichsman and all four of his AVs in a Kahn TF. The screenshot is in that thread.
The short of it is as Gavin said: If Dark Armor is doing poorly, it's the result of operator error.
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Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Isn't your DA a Tanker though, Dechs?
I have to echo the statement that /DA is hard to play, at least on a Brute which is where my only experience with the set lies. A lot of its mitigation comes in the form of gadgets rather than pure defense (or resistance in the case of DA), so you need to stay on top of things.
That aside, it's really fun to play when things are going well. And don't buy into the "DA kills Fury" argument; it might technically be true (and I'm saying might), but much like the water level in the tub dropping when you get out of it, it's completely meaningless.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Like I mentioned in that Tanker DA thread, DA redside can be painful. Mainly because redside you fight Longbow...a lot. And after lvl 35 (?) those Longbow Lts. throw out the -RES grenades and...well...1 or 2 of those and DA hurts (anything does really).
But if you put some IOs in DA and maybe cap Defense or what have ya, it might not be so bad 
Try it out!
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I usually end up having to warm up into playing my DM/DA. I do believe in herding up mobs tight and killing all before being killed as its more fun. You can almost die but dark regen in time and that why I find it fun. If ya die, soul transfer and carry on.
There is plenty of survivability if you use your toggles well. CoF is mag 3 fear I think, that's better than what tankers get. You shouldn't have to min max and spend billions on a good one, just accept what type of character it is from the powersets and run with it.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Yes, my DA is a tank, so it will be inherently tougher than the brute. I'm pretty sure most of you brutes will tell me, though, that a brute can be built tough enough.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Isn't your DA a Tanker though, Dechs?
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Considering the "kill them faster" nature of a brute, I have no doubts that a Fire/Dark Armor brute could do the same things I have.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
My main brute, and second to 'main' character is a Energy Melee/Dark armor brute. He's beastly, even though he relies mostly upn his powers, using no +defense Io bonuses. He did dip in to grab 'tough,' though. I found the S/L resistances, usually lower, to be beneficial to /DA. All of his bonuses lean to +recovery, though, because he runs the following toggles:
dark embrace
death shroud
murky cloud
obsidian shield
cloak of fear
oppressive gloom
tough
combat jumping
sprint
Yeah, a bit blue-hungry. But he's at standard set for +0/x6, and does quite well. With cloak of fear/Oppressive gloom, most of the melee foes are let unable to attack back. ranged enemies may plink away, but that helps for fury whilst the smackdown goes on groups in my face that didn't get stunned/feared. Many people talk about how the mez auras slow fury generation; this is silly. you can limit only 10-20 enemies in melee...mostly around 10. As such, bump your number to make sure you always have more than 10 per spawn and you'll be peachy. The stunned/fearful stuff just works as easy dark regeration fuel, and still squeezes out a few hits here and there.
The kew to survival, by the way, is timing the dark regen. Once you're used to the ammount of damage your average mob gives the brute, you can pretty easily know hom many ticks more before you go down, and fill completely up before then. I'd regularly team with people that said things like "!!" "careful.." *heal to full in a couple seconds* "oh, nvm." Getting the animation time down is big too.
It was my EM/DA's performance that persuaded a friend to roll a DA/EM tank.
I have a SS/DA Brute at level 34 and I have fun playing him. I admit that although I've been playing off and on for a year now, I'm still a noob. I created the guy in 2006 on a trial and when I subbed last year I decided I'd try and level him. I can usually run all of my missions without any problem, although I do die every once in a while. I say give it a try, it can be fun. I'd have to say, of all of power sets and archetypes I've tried, this guy is the most survivable.
Until you sink IOs in it, it's that bad. At the SO level, I think I get better performance out of /Fire. After a couple billion in IOs, it's probably just under an equivalently tricked out Willpower and Shield.
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Fix'd.|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
Until you learn to play it, it's that bad.
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Originally Posted by tarrantm
At the SO level, I think I get better performance out of /Fire.
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Originally Posted by tarrantm
After a couple billion in IOs, it's probably just under an equivalently tricked out Willpower and Shield.
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In a race for sheer survival, "tricked out" DA beats Shields with ease, and it stands toe to toe with Willpower until the WP sees endurance drain. Then again, it should beat Shields, because Shields is the offensive set.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Yeah, my frad controller can do that.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I've also held the aggro of Reichsman and all four of his AVs in a Kahn TF. The screenshot is in that thread.
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I'm curious though, what about STF? do you tank all 4 patrons at once or do you do single pulls? and what about the RSF? do you have a DA Brute that you tank RSF's with?
This is all genuine curiosity, I've always seen you as a good player, and 'bragging' about tanking the 4 AVs on the Kahn TF just doesn't sound quite right to me :s
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Meh, u play a tougher AT that's easier to softcap plus you're on blueside where everything is easier including cheaper IOs. Did u actually have the DPS to take out a Zeus on your own btw? |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Fix'd.
Hyperbole is bad, mmmkay? I only spent 300 million in IOs on mine. Granted, it's a tank, but a brute should have an easier time taking care of +4/x8 Malta than I did. In a race for sheer survival, "tricked out" DA beats Shields with ease, and it stands toe to toe with Willpower until the WP sees endurance drain. Then again, it should beat Shields, because Shields is the offensive set. |
There'd be no way even a fully IOed out /Dark Brute can stand against 4/8 Arachnos or Longbow without a group behind him. Even the much vaunted endurance drain resist of Dark does nothing against -recov. If you actually want to test how much tougher Mu -recov is compared to Malta Sappers, run the arc that involves taking down Sirocco in the Mu fest. With the stacked -recov, /Dark would run itself dry before u hit 50% Fury.
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Wait, what? If it can't solo a zeus, do 4/8, and/or has trouble with mu it's broken? Sorry dude, wrong. My aforementioned brute has soloed four or so AV's (using candy, though) and has no io defense. The guy bought a pair of impervium armors for his armors to asuage the endurance costs because the set has some nice +recovery, and his stuns the same for the +recovery bonuses, but he's cost me on the whole no more than25million. (Half of that cost being a numina unique I recently bought.)|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
Meh, u play a tougher AT that's easier to softcap plus you're on blueside where everything is easier including cheaper IOs. Did u actually have the DPS to take out a Zeus on your own btw?
There'd be no way even a fully IOed out /Dark Brute can stand against 4/8 Arachnos or Longbow without a group behind him. Even the much vaunted endurance drain resist of Dark does nothing against -recov. If you actually want to test how much tougher Mu -recov is compared to Malta Sappers, run the arc that involves taking down Sirocco in the Mu fest. With the stacked -recov, /Dark would run itself dry before u hit 50% Fury. |
ANYTHING you want to do zeus, solo 4/8, and have no problem with mu will cost you big. ...And sorry, at that point dark's not far behind many other sets with the same investment.
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I've done all four at once, and held them for quite some time on my own. It really depends on how lucky GW is with her hold and the team I'm with. Those four can cause quite a bit of AoE damage, and if the team can't handle it it doesn't matter how long I can hold all four. |
Originally Posted by Silverado
I'm curious though, what about STF? do you tank all 4 patrons at once or do you do single pulls?
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If it's a Master of attempt then I do single/double pulls only.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
and what about the RSF? do you have a DA Brute that you tank RSF's with?
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Originally Posted by Silverado
This is all genuine curiosity, I've always seen you as a good player, and 'bragging' about tanking the 4 AVs on the Kahn TF just doesn't sound quite right to me :s
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EDIT: I see what you mean here. Had to read that a few times. I think tanking all four of them is a feat. I'd love to see an invuln, willpower, electric, or even a stone tank that could do the same. There's a lot of psi and even defense and recovery debuffs in these four.
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Originally Posted by tarrantm
Did u actually have the DPS to take out a Zeus on your own btw?
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Originally Posted by tarrantm
Even the much vaunted endurance drain resist of Dark does nothing against -recov.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I reckon Dark Armour Brutes could be tanking all 4 of the inner circle together. It's possible. I'd say tanks could throw LR in there for good measure if he didn't need them towers. When it comes to tanking nothing does it better than the tank.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Of course all those other tanks can do the same. Personally, I hate playing tanks and only have one I bother with, an invul that has held aggro of the Reichs AVs + Rechs, the 4 patrons and LR with zero support. To clarify wording, only LR was with 0 support. Focusing on the Reichs AVs, I've witnessed Stone do it, which should be no surprise. Elec Armor can be built up via IOs in the same manner DA can be; the basic framework is quite similar. Likewise, building up Def via IOs should make such a feat doable for Willpower as well.| EDIT: I see what you mean here. Had to read that a few times. I think tanking all four of them is a feat. I'd love to see an invuln, willpower, electric, or even a stone tank that could do the same. There's a lot of psi and even defense and recovery debuffs in these four |
Anyway, this is the Brute board. One of the criticisms I hear of DA for Brutes is that it hinders Fury building. I don't know that first-hand, I've never made one and I don't have one my to-do list just spouting "conventional wisdom".
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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The fun with brute's auras eliminating threats? You can spawn more of them. If you can guarantee that 10 members of every mob, more if you have CoF/OG together, will do very little fightback...you can do crazyier stuff. Then a mob of 15 means 10 minor threats and 5 normal threats. /DA axcells at messing up large messes of mobs. It's a less strong vs. hard targets, unless those are neg energy/psi in nature...even then it's still decent. You may have to pop candy, but having some well-rounded resistances means you have few achilles moments, and a heal can put you to 75% health per enemy is no small thing.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Anyway, this is the Brute board. One of the criticisms I hear of DA for Brutes is that it hinders Fury building. I don't know that first-hand, I've never made one and I don't have one my to-do list just spouting "conventional wisdom".
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I have no idea where you're pulling ur defensive inferiority complex from. I was talking about Brutes in comparison to Dech's Tanker (which, impressively, according to him, can solo a 4/8 Malta including Zeus', something I doubt my /Dark Brute could do no matter the IO costs). |
Originally Posted by Seldom
Wait, what? If it can't solo a zeus, do 4/8, and/or has trouble with mu it's broken? Sorry dude, wrong. My aforementioned brute has soloed four or so AV's (using candy, though) and has no io defense. The guy bought a pair of impervium armors for his armors to asuage the endurance costs because the set has some nice +recovery, and his stuns the same for the +recovery bonuses, but he's cost me on the whole no more than25million. (Half of that cost being a numina unique I recently bought.)
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| ANYTHING you want to do zeus, solo 4/8, and have no problem with mu will cost you big. ...And sorry, at that point dark's not far behind many other sets with the same investment. |
It's just at the lower end of investment that we seem to disagree, and I am still convinced that at SO performance levels, /Fire and /Elec outperforms /Dark due to the lack of an End bar refill power in the set.
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Hey, if you claim it's been done, I'm not going to challenge it. But just to be sure we're on the same page here, I do mean all four of Reichsman's AVs plus Reichsman at the same time. Not Reichsman plus one of his AVs at a time until that AV is dead.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Focusing on the Reichs AVs, I've witnessed Stone do it, which should be no surprise. Elec Armor can be built up via IOs in the same manner DA can be; the basic framework is quite similar. Likewise, building up Def via IOs should make such a feat doable for Willpower as well.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I have a love/hate relationship with Dark Armor. I love the style of the set. I hate the endurance monster that it turns into. Yes, yes I know you can largely fix that with IO sets. But should you *have* to? Should IO slotting be required to make the set not have hideous end problems? Apparently the Devs think that's ok, but I tend to disagree.
DA is good, period. Just to see if I could do it, about a year ago I made an AE mish full of praetorian AVs, I saw that vid of the WP/Mace, Powerforge, tanking 10 at once, and decided to see how well I could do in the same scenario. Tanked 8 of em at once until I got bored, and that was before I was even softcapped.
Yes, I know this is about brutes. Have a claws/DA that I am leveling, is at 23 or 24(i forget) now. End is hardly problematic, and I don't even have my ToE proc in it yet.
This toon is even more fun that me DA/DM tank, maybe even more fun that my kat/DA scrapper. Once I get it IOed, which won't cost all that much, it is going to be a monster.
Dechs has it right, if you have serious end problems or need IOs to make it work, you need to learn to play it.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
I've read alot about how sub-par DA is. But I mean, is it really that bad? I have wanted to make one for a while, but could never think of a good backstory for one, and i have finally found one that works for me. I am not looking for performance levels like that of my farmers, but also do not want to faceplant every third mob. I have a reasonable amount of inf to pour into him, but dont really want to get into minimaxing on this toon. So finally to my point: Can i have fun on a /DA brute without it getting to be overly frustrating?