Quote:
Please define a loaded statement for me. Brutes cannot achieve the same resist numbers as a tank without outside buffing. Ever. Not once. Cannot happen. The defense oriented slant of IOs prevents it. In the future maybe the resist sets will get some love. A DA brute CAN achieve the exact same defense numbers as a tank. Please see the above about the defense slant of IOs. Also, bear in mind, that this is in fact a RESIST set that we are talking about.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
That's so loaded it's not even funny. Show me ANY brute with tank resist numbers, short of Stone.
As far as hp goes, my claws/DA with have over 2k hp when I am done with him, and that isn't even focusing on hp. base hp on a DA tank is 1874. Capped, no, but up to tanker level, yep. It is just beyond me why everyone has to crap on DA. The fact of the matter is, it has been shown that not only is DA solid, when people actually learn to play it it is an overachiever capable of some incredible feats. If you can't get a handle on it, don't play it. But really, is there any reason to pretend that it is garbage just because you can't wrap your head around it? I hate SD with a passion, but I don't run around telling people not to play it, or spend tons of energy trying to "prove" it is broken. |
_Deth_, I was not, nor ever did, imply that DA is broken, useless, worthless, unplayable, or in need of fixing. I stated the FACT that when you choose the set, and level it, you have the OPTION of taking 3 very unique toggles (CoD, CoF, and OG). I also seem to have posted that you can easily work around taking CoD (with CJ), and CoF can be skipped for OG. If you are going to choose the set, I would highly recommend CoD and at least Cloak of Fear OR Oppressive Gloom. The added toggles are what make the set unique. If you are not going to, you may as well roll a different toon. I also pointed out that the set does in fact have strong points as compared to others. The only caveat to that, is that I would plan on making a substantial investment into the toon. Most of the posts I've seen contradicting the numbers posted are of the "My softcapped McPurpled XX/YY is unstoppable, and therefore, you suck" variety. >shrug< Most of my toons are levelled with basic IOs, and a few double/triples where appropriate.
Could you please load up one of your DA toons, open combat attributes and tell us what your End consumption is? It would go a long ways towards validating your argument that my numbers were slanted to make DA look bad. They weren't btw, it's true. If you take the toggles and run them.... you use some more end.
As far as not understanding the ZOMGaWESOME of the set, I have played a claws/dark brute to ~40 (38 maybe?) and a spines/DA scrapper to 35.
Quote:
No offense was taken, and there's no need to apologize. You saw something that didn't sit right with you and you called it out.|
Originally Posted by prev1
I realize the post was inflammatory, specifically to Dechs. I do apologize for that.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by prev1
Outside of those, scads of survival tools come into play. Notably def. slotting. That has little/nothing to do with DA and is achievable with any AT or combo.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by prev1
Please show me an /DA brute with tank hp/resist numbers, I'll gladly retract my thoughts on the comparisons.
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I dare you to find one prominent player to claim that brutes can't be built "tough enough."
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
CoD, CoF and OG are far from the defining powers of the set. My DA "softcapped McPurpled XX/YY is unstoppable" tank only has CoD for the defense, and doesn't use CoF or OG. It doesn't have any purples either. |
Originally Posted by prev1
Please define a loaded statement for me. Brutes cannot achieve the same resist numbers as a tank without outside buffing. Ever. Not once. Cannot happen. The defense oriented slant of IOs prevents it. In the future maybe the resist sets will get some love. A DA brute CAN achieve the exact same defense numbers as a tank. Please see the above about the defense slant of IOs. Also, bear in mind, that this is in fact a RESIST set that we are talking about.
_Deth_, I was not, nor ever did, imply that DA is broken, useless, worthless, unplayable, or in need of fixing. I stated the FACT that when you choose the set, and level it, you have the OPTION of taking 3 very unique toggles (CoD, CoF, and OG). I also seem to have posted that you can easily work around taking CoD (with CJ), and CoF can be skipped for OG. If you are going to choose the set, I would highly recommend CoD and at least Cloak of Fear OR Oppressive Gloom. The added toggles are what make the set unique. If you are not going to, you may as well roll a different toon. I also pointed out that the set does in fact have strong points as compared to others. The only caveat to that, is that I would plan on making a substantial investment into the toon. Most of the posts I've seen contradicting the numbers posted are of the "My softcapped McPurpled XX/YY is unstoppable, and therefore, you suck" variety. >shrug< Most of my toons are levelled with basic IOs, and a few double/triples where appropriate. Could you please load up one of your DA toons, open combat attributes and tell us what your End consumption is? It would go a long ways towards validating your argument that my numbers were slanted to make DA look bad. They weren't btw, it's true. If you take the toggles and run them.... you use some more end. As far as not understanding the ZOMGaWESOME of the set, I have played a claws/dark brute to ~40 (38 maybe?) and a spines/DA scrapper to 35. |
Running 9 toggles- all armors, tough, weave, cj & sprint, i use 1.69 end/sec. Thats straight from my combat attributes. My end recovery is 3.55 end/sec.
What I find hilarious is that people use the "only using Basic IOs or SOs" argument to try to show how weak it is. Do a lot of people still only run in SOs, yeah, sure they do. I don't IO the hell out of all my toons, only the ones I plan on playing a lot. Just because most people only use SOs doesn't change the true potential of any set.
And if you haven't IOed the hell out of it, or even loaded it up with basic IOs then you haven't come close to the "ZOMGaWESOMENESS" of the set.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Quote:
Now that the GR NDA is lifted, I'm getting back to this and I can say that they no longer have the same cap.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
get back to what later, they have the same cap. is it harder for brutes to hit that cap than it is for tanks, yes, but it can be done.
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Quote:
I play a SS/DA brute, 50 since before IO's existed. The character was fun back then, and has only gotten better. DA provided a far more even play experience redside than other sets (example: Invuln - uber to Council, weaker to CoT, etc).|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
Meh, u play a tougher AT that's easier to softcap plus you're on blueside where everything is easier including cheaper IOs. Did u actually have the DPS to take out a Zeus on your own btw?
There'd be no way even a fully IOed out /Dark Brute can stand against 4/8 Arachnos or Longbow without a group behind him. Even the much vaunted endurance drain resist of Dark does nothing against -recov. If you actually want to test how much tougher Mu -recov is compared to Malta Sappers, run the arc that involves taking down Sirocco in the Mu fest. With the stacked -recov, /Dark would run itself dry before u hit 50% Fury. |
I will point out that managing endurance with just SO's took serious work. DR on SO's is just that greedy. But these days one PerfShifter+end and one ToE+end pretty much solve that. Or you can go for uniques and +rec/+max end bonuses and feel like you have quick recovery.
Now? My current build has a mere 30% melee def and the aforementioned +end procs/uniques. I can solo +1/x8 easily, and honestly haven't bothered trying harder stuff, I don't really feel the need. My end just doesn't drop substantially unless hasten & rage crash at the same time... and it goes right back up afterwards.
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You can have lots of fun with a DA brute! You have inf, and that's good -- you'll need it. I think DA requires more money to be brought up to a "good" level, but its versatility makes it a lot of fun, and there's an infinite amount of infamy out there just waiting to be earned. I say spend the money and enjoy yourself. I've had my SS/DA since villains went live, and I still play her a lot.
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Originally Posted by Rofctaf
I've read alot about how sub-par DA is. But I mean, is it really that bad? I have wanted to make one for a while, but could never think of a good backstory for one, and i have finally found one that works for me. I am not looking for performance levels like that of my farmers, but also do not want to faceplant every third mob. I have a reasonable amount of inf to pour into him, but dont really want to get into minimaxing on this toon. So finally to my point: Can i have fun on a /DA brute without it getting to be overly frustrating?
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Alright Dechs, now I'm curious. If I have anything it's free time. I need a new project toon anyhow. Sorry if this is highjacking the thread, but heres the build I cooked up. How's this look?
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Villain Profile:
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Level 1: Strike KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(46), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(46), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 1: Dark Embrace RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(37), RctvArm-ResDam(40), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(40)
Level 2: Slash KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 4: Murky Cloud RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(5), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(5), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(15)
Level 6: Spin Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(9), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(13), Oblit-Dmg(13)
Level 8: Combat Jumping LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Ksmt-ToHit+(9)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield EndRdx-I(A), S'fstPrt-ResKB(11), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(11)
Level 12: Hurdle Jump-I(A)
Level 14: Super Jump Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Death Shroud Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Armgdn-Dam%(43)
Level 18: Health Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(19)
Level 20: Stamina P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(21), P'Shift-EndMod(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(43)
Level 22: Cloak of Darkness LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(23), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 24: Dark Regeneration Theft-+End%(A), Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen(37), Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Heal(40)
Level 26: Focus Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(27), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 28: Boxing KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(29), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(29), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 30: Tough RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam(31), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(31)
Level 32: Weave LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 35: Cloak of Fear SipInsght-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SipInsght-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(36), SipInsght-ToHitDeb(36), SipInsght-Acc/ToHitDeb(36), SipInsght-Acc/Rchg(37)
Level 38: Follow Up KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 41: Taunt Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(42), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(42), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(42)
Level 44: Hasten RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 47: Swipe Mocking-Taunt/Rng(A), Mocking-Taunt(48), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(48), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(48)
Level 49: Oppressive Gloom Empty(A)
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Level 1: Brawl Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 6: Ninja Run
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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It's worth pointing out that I made some fairly serious concessions to get to the s/l cap. I would prefer Eviscerate to Slash for an actual attack, and Strike is only a slot mule. Pretty spendy tradeoff, but no real issue. Follow ups accuracy is also anemic with only the KCs slotted, but I have a reasonable global accuracy and the kismet to lean on.
Quote:
I don't have time to look at it now, but I'll try to look at it tomorrow.|
Originally Posted by prev1
Alright Dechs, now I'm curious. If I have anything it's free time. I need a new project toon anyhow. Sorry if this is highjacking the thread, but heres the build I cooked up. How's this look?
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I have to warn you, however, that I've never been particularly good with brutes (or scrappers for that matter). Regardless, I will do my best to optimize the build. Would you say that you're dead set on keeping the S/L softcap? Just so I have an idea how far to go with it.
Actually, how about we take it to PMs to avoid further threadjack. I'll send you my revisions (if I have any) when I get some time tomorrow.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I run a DM/DA Scrapper quite a bit using a low-budget IO set build that isn't softcapped to anything (probably nothing more than slightly slotted CoD). I run all */DA toggles, plus CJ & Sprint, and the set's mitigation has been great for survivability. PerfShift:+End, Stamina, Dark Consumption, and Conserve Power all help to keep him moving. I did spend for a few -KB IOs and consider them a great purchase.
The biggest adjustment for me was that */DA requires more attention from the player and smart use of click powers. Like with Regen, you have to keep an eye on your HP, but you also have to keep an eye on your End. You can get into trouble if you like to chat during combat or prefer a more relaxed playstyle, but it isn't that big of an issue.
On a Brute, you could concentrate a bit less on damage and a little bit more on endurance reduction when choosing IOs, which would be helpful. If you ignore the mitigation auras or find yourself in a situation where they don't work, then you can expect reduced survivability.
With enough inf or lucky drops, you can overcome survivability issues. It's a lot easier to plug defense into a build than resistance, so a resistance/mitigation set like */DA has a lot of upside.
DA is a lot like Energy Aura when it comes to rep. Both sets are perceived to be subpar until you start adding IO's. Once you get endurance under control with DA it does become a very good set, but it is not easy mode like WP. You do have to think to play it well. I have a lot of brutes at 50, so I can tell you that DA performs just as well as most of the other secondaries. The only 2 I can't compare it to are SR and Shield which I haven't taken to 50 yet.
I do like playing my FM/DA brute a lot. Is he my favorite? No, that would be me Energy Aura.
Quote:
yeah, so you are basing an argument on something that hasn't gone to and may not make it to the live servers. Until it goes live, it means nothing. |
Originally Posted by tarrantm
Now that the GR NDA is lifted, I'm getting back to this and I can say that they no longer have the same cap.
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so yeah, once again, they have the same cap.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
The effect per end of DA is relative to the AT. Running all toggles at once all of the time through choice rather than need will impact recovery.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
It's been hashed out already. I'd be more surprised if it doesn't go live as is. lol at denial.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
yeah, so you are basing an argument on something that hasn't gone to and may not make it to the live servers. Until it goes live, it means nothing.
so yeah, once again, they have the same cap. |
Quote:
way to miss the point
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Originally Posted by tarrantm
It's been hashed out already. I'd be more surprised if it doesn't go live as is. lol at denial.
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Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
All I can say is...I play a Dark Armor Stalker. At first, I hated the set and wondered if I made a mistake. Then it just sort of clicked, and now my survival rate* is phenominal. I'm not sure how to explain it...I think my biggest issue was getting it through my skull that I will be getting damaged. A lot. However, /DA has more than enough tools to deal with that.
Also, I don't have much of an Endurance issue these days. Not sure what my slotting is offhand, but I seem to have balanced it out nicely using almost purely common IOs, a few SOs, and like two set IOs.
KB is the bane of my existance, I admit. One of these days I'll have my precious Steadfast Protection unique. Someday. I skipped Shadow Dweller, so Immob gets me, but I'm a teleporter anyways so no worries.
*(I considder popping Soul Transfer in the heat of battle to be "Surviving". Defeat is when all options are exhausted, and you are forced to use an Awaken or the hospital. That's my view, anyways.)
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
Quote:
The steadfast protection is easy to get, just do level 10-14 bronze rolls from AE tickets. Don't forget, there is a Karma KB protection IO as well. Easiest thing you can do to take care of KB/Imm is take Combat Jumping and slap a Karma or, if you feel like spending big, a Blessing of the Zephyr KB protection. |
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
All I can say is...I play a Dark Armor Stalker. At first, I hated the set and wondered if I made a mistake. Then it just sort of clicked, and now my survival rate* is phenominal. I'm not sure how to explain it...I think my biggest issue was getting it through my skull that I will be getting damaged. A lot. However, /DA has more than enough tools to deal with that.
Also, I don't have much of an Endurance issue these days. Not sure what my slotting is offhand, but I seem to have balanced it out nicely using almost purely common IOs, a few SOs, and like two set IOs. KB is the bane of my existance, I admit. One of these days I'll have my precious Steadfast Protection unique. Someday. I skipped Shadow Dweller, so Immob gets me, but I'm a teleporter anyways so no worries. *(I considder popping Soul Transfer in the heat of battle to be "Surviving". Defeat is when all options are exhausted, and you are forced to use an Awaken or the hospital. That's my view, anyways.) |
And yeah, that is the whole point of Soul Transfer, which is why I don't understand folks always skipping it.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Quote:
Check your ingame mail!
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Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
KB is the bane of my existance, I admit. One of these days I'll have my precious Steadfast Protection unique. Someday. I skipped Shadow Dweller, so Immob gets me, but I'm a teleporter anyways so no worries.
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Friends don't let friends play /DA brutes.
Quote:
Read the guide in my signature. |
Originally Posted by Rofctaf
I've read alot about how sub-par DA is. But I mean, is it really that bad? I have wanted to make one for a while, but could never think of a good backstory for one, and i have finally found one that works for me. I am not looking for performance levels like that of my farmers, but also do not want to faceplant every third mob. I have a reasonable amount of inf to pour into him, but dont really want to get into minimaxing on this toon. So finally to my point: Can i have fun on a /DA brute without it getting to be overly frustrating?
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Just made a SM/DA for Rogue.
This aint my first time playing it, I really got it down when I played it pre-IO's so I feel I'll be good this time around. I have lots of experience with the set.
My 1 question is, what kind of numbers for Def are good? Thats the one part of this /DA I don't get or how to fit it in.
I have a FM/DA and I have about 25% defense to all. With all my resist and the great mitigation offered by DA I am happy with that amount. Since you are SM you also have Fault which offers even more mitigation. I found getting that much defense was easy without sacrificing +recovery and end reduction which are so important on DA.
That's so loaded it's not even funny. Show me ANY brute with tank resist numbers, short of Stone.
As far as hp goes, my claws/DA with have over 2k hp when I am done with him, and that isn't even focusing on hp. base hp on a DA tank is 1874. Capped, no, but up to tanker level, yep.
It is just beyond me why everyone has to crap on DA. The fact of the matter is, it has been shown that not only is DA solid, when people actually learn to play it it is an overachiever capable of some incredible feats.
If you can't get a handle on it, don't play it. But really, is there any reason to pretend that it is garbage just because you can't wrap your head around it? I hate SD with a passion, but I don't run around telling people not to play it, or spend tons of energy trying to "prove" it is broken.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.