Abandoning the Rogue Isles.
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2010-08-04 09:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I still think the problem with the Rogues is being tied to Arachnos, it's too stifling. GR, to me, seems a stop-gap measure that gives villains a way to be themselves outside the web.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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I don't see how this is any different than heroes being tied to the Freedom Phalanx/Freedom Corps. Players frequently just ignore that if it doesn't fit their concept. In fact, they freely and openly play villains who, by all rights, Freedom Corp would certainly hunt down and arrest. They don't give it a second thought.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I still think the problem with the Rogues is being tied to Arachnos, it's too stifling. GR, to me, seems a stop-gap measure that gives villains a way to be themselves outside the web.
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This is even EASIER to do in the Rogue Isles since the group you are supposedly tethered to is one which is frequently trying to kill you, and you are frequently trying to kill them. Not much of a stretch to imagine that you aren't part of that organization.
I do, however, hope that when they get around to doing the CoH2 project, they try to stay away from black and white and go more with the shades of grey they are introducing with Going Rogue. A faction-based system seems like a logical choice here. Get in good with The Family and they give you better and better jobs and are less likely to shoot you when they see you around the city. Go up against them too often and they'll go out of their way to take you down.
- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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You aren't part of Arachnos, you just do some jobs here and there for them.
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Originally Posted by Garielle
I don't see how this is any different than heroes being tied to the Freedom Phalanx/Freedom Corps. Players frequently just ignore that if it doesn't fit their concept. In fact, they freely and openly play villains who, by all rights, Freedom Corp would certainly hunt down and arrest. They don't give it a second thought.
This is even EASIER to do in the Rogue Isles since the group you are supposedly tethered to is one which is frequently trying to kill you, and you are frequently trying to kill them. Not much of a stretch to imagine that you aren't part of that organization. I do, however, hope that when they get around to doing the CoH2 project, they try to stay away from black and white and go more with the shades of grey they are introducing with Going Rogue. A faction-based system seems like a logical choice here. Get in good with The Family and they give you better and better jobs and are less likely to shoot you when they see you around the city. Go up against them too often and they'll go out of their way to take you down. |
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Choosing an Arachnos Patron is just another job for them?|
Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
You aren't part of Arachnos, you just do some jobs here and there for them.
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Though considering the nature of Project: DESTINY, I guess it kinda is.
I will probably place some characters in the vigilante/rogue area and maybe make a complete switch for one or two temporarily, for some variation in content.
Of my 10 level 50s I have 8 villains and 2 heroes. One hero will likely move one from blue-side to red-side, a couple of the others might be placed in between. For those below level 50 it remains to be seen.
Temporary moves, that will definitely happen a few times - permanent moves, more likely to red-side than blue-side.
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To be fair, in the second Patron arc you beat up your patron, and in the fourth you beat up the big cheese of Arachnos. The point of the patron arc is kinda that Arachnos doesn't have **** on you|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Choosing an Arachnos Patron is just another job for them?
Though considering the nature of Project: DESTINY, I guess it kinda is. |
Let's not forget that the special VEAT contact outright hates Arachnos and wants you to feel the same. You fight Arachnos as often you work for them. I mean, you're a villain, you make and break alliances all the time.
The point is more justifiable on the hero-side because we want to be a part of the forces for good, but on the villain-side, the knowledge that everything you do is under the eye of Arachnos is contrary to the basic ambitions of a villain. It's even worse that just as you flex your own muscles as a force to reckon with, the game is over. I don't see GR resolving this, as it really just puts both sides in an infinite loop with one another.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Yes, my Blasters freely wail on EBs & kill them with thier damage, especially Fire/fire Blasters who, let's face it, are Gods of Damage and fear only mezzes and sleeps. And they don't fear them much; they fear being out of BFs I guess. Thats about it.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I am confused. Your argument here seems to be that because a Blaster doesn't have Control powers... that the Triangles don't exist. Blasters can then freely wail on EBs and kill them with their damage?
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| A Dominator, though it does have control powers... will still deal its damage no matter what the amount of Status Protection an EB has... same as a Blaster. I guess I must be missing something? |
Blasters and Doms are not really comparable. Blasters do have their weak spots, but the PToD are not one of those spots. Not that I've ever noticed.
Actually, my Hero, Knight of Iron-Star will be going to the Rogue Isles for a big badge hunt. 
My Lego Models http://www.flickr.com/photos/30369639@N07/ lemur lad: God you can't be that stupid... I'm on at the same time as you for once, and not 20 minutes into it you give me something worth petitioning?Lady-Dee: Hey my fat keeps me warm in the winter and shady in the summer.
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Thank you, Storm. |
Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
You aren't part of Arachnos, you just do some jobs here and there for them.
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I was making the point that the villain side is less restrictive than the hero side. You just reinforced the point. And I say that, not in a smart alek sort of way. I mean exactly what I said, "Thank you."
- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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errr. RIght. I think I hit quote on the wrong person :P I knew what you meant.
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Originally Posted by Garielle
Thank you, Storm.
I was making the point that the villain side is less restrictive than the hero side. You just reinforced the point. And I say that, not in a smart alek sort of way. I mean exactly what I said, "Thank you." |
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That's not what I said. A dominator deals its damage to an enemy with PToD and a blaster can deal its damage to an enemy with PToD... ergo, a dominator can deal its damage the same as a blaster can.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Dominators deal the same damage as Blasters?
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
...and a great deal of upper level NPCs in this game are sporting those little purple triangles which protect them from Control, to a great extent.
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And no, I was NOT saying that a Dom and a Blaster are on equal footings... just that the fact that they can't get mezzed doesn't seem to hurt a Blaster. It only hurts a Dom in so much as it's damage is inferior and well.... that's it, isn't it?
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If the Blaster is dealing more damage than the Dominator such that the Dominator needs the mitigation of its controls to make up the difference to survive an encounter, then PToD will ruin its day where it wouldn't ruin a Blaster's.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
That's not what I said. A dominator deals its damage to an enemy with PToD and a blaster can deal its damage to an enemy with PToD... ergo, a dominator can deal its damage the same as a blaster can.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
So... then what I hear you saying is that a Dom needs more damage... not that the PToD should go away?
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If that were the case then the problem wouldn't exist solely when faced with PToD, would it?
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
So... then what I hear you saying is that a Dom needs more damage... not that the PToD should go away?
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I only have 1 villain that is turning hero; and 1 hero turning villain. That's about it.
"Certain it is and sure: love burns, ale burns, fire burns, politics burns, but cold were life without them." - Romulan proverb
My Characters
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Personally, I would say that the PToD on elite bosses needs to go away. Increasing the Dom damage would make them overpowered against all other opponents, factoring in their control abilities, so that would be a bad thing.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
So... then what I hear you saying is that a Dom needs more damage... not that the PToD should go away?
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I'll face PToD elite bosses now and then with my blasters. I just finished wiping out all the Praetorian EBs (except Shadowhunter) with my Ice/Ice blaster. But I won't bother fighting PToD EBs with my dominators.
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Doms doing more damage is simply not going to happen, so I would never waste my time postulating same. Here's what I was getting at:| Thirty: [PToD] protect [elite bosses, etc.] from CONTROL not from DAMAGE. So what you are REALLY saying seems to be that Dominators should do more damage? |
*Blasters: Damage primary/damage secondary
*Dominators: Control primary/damage secondary
OR, in a worst-case scenario, Control primary/"buff" secondary. OMG.
This automatically means that Dominators are doing about half the damage of a Blaster, if they're lucky. You seem to think that there is no difference between a character doing damage or exerting Control, and I assure you there is a great big difference. This is why many people complain about upper-level Doms being all but forced to team: they often don't have the firepower to take down anything that is resisting their entire primary set. My Dom was often found in PvP zones getting the Shivan and Nuke temp powers as a result, esp. before they made getting Shivans much more difficult to get solo.
I have one level 50 Dom and I doubt I will ever have another: I simply have too much fun playing characters who have no problem whatsoever with EBs. If I want to play a Control type, I play a 'troller, who seem to have far fewer difficulties - at least, so it seems to me. I have a Fire/kin 'troller who has the powers of a literal god. He is all but unstoppable.
Wish my Dom could say the same
Bad Influence,
The problem may lie in one simple fact--Dominators do not match your play style. That's not saying it's your fault or a lack of skill on your part. Obviously, there are other ATs that you do well with, so you obviously have an understanding of game mechanics. It's not a flaw in the design of Dominators or the existence of PToD either. There are players who play them and enjoy playing them.
The real issue is that, because CoH was around well before CoV, many CoH characters came over to CoV and tried to create characters they could play the same way as their CoH characters. This was never the way the ATs were designed. In fact, they were designed to be almost polar opposites.
Let's take a common example... Brutes and Tankers. There are a lot of people who want to play Brutes like they play Tankers and then get upset when they don't get the same defense. The Defense is a PRIMARY power set for Tankers. It is a SECONDARY set for Brutes. They are exact opposites of each other. In fact, the Brute actually most closely resembles....wait for it.... a Scrapper. The Scrapper also has a Melee primary and a Defense secondary.
Does this mean people should trying playing Brutes more like Scrappers? Not really. The Scrapper's attacks are designed to be fast, decent damage, attacks, relying more on speed and agility. The Brute's on the other hand are (or should be) designed more to take advantage of, well...Brute Strength (sorry... couldn't resist). Additionally, the Brute has to build up some rage in order to realize their full potential, so trying to play just like a Scrapper will only lead to epic fail and utter frustration.
The bottom line is, the Archetypes are all designed to be played differently. This is by design, and it's a good thing. I know there is one game that I absolutely despised because every single character type played almost exactly the same, and only the "flavor" of the attacks and abilities changed from character type to character type. Bleh!
The key is to find an Archetype you like or a few you like and stick to those instead of trying to mold every single Archetype to meet your individual play-style. I don't know that anyone should expect to be able to become a Master of All Archetypes (even the developers themselves). That's not a knock on you, or anyone else. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. In RL, I am very much a logical thinker. Give me a screen full of computer code and I can see the values flowing from variable to variable and follow the logic the computer is going to use when executing the code. Give me a list of network specifications, and I can see the subnetting needed in my head with almost no effort. Ask me to hand draw you a picture of what the screen is gonna like when that code executes, or a picture of where everything will be plugged into that network, and you're gonna end up looking a jumbled sketch that looks like it was drawn by a 6-year old. I have no artist skill whatsoever. I admire those who do, but I am just not one of them.
This is the same way I think about ATs. Like you, I love my Controller. I also tend to like Defenders. On the villain side, I like my Mastermind and my Crab Spider. All of these allow me to hang back, attack from a distance, and, where applicable, support the team. I tend to shy away from the in-your-face melee ATs like Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Tanks because they don't suit my play-style well. ( I will admit though, I have a growing affinity for my Widow)
Maybe, once you can get your Dominator over to Paragon and try it against some different content, you will find you are right, and that it was the types of foes you were facing that gave you issue. Maybe you will find that you don't like the Dominator over there either. So be it. Just find something else, which you do enjoy playing, and have at it.
- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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Yes, I am aware of this. It does not really address the fact that my Dom needed to be teamed to get past many EBs, when really.... almost no one else I play does. No one else, hero or villain, need fear the PToD. No other AT is hamstrung in quite that way. | The bottom line is, the Archetypes are all designed to be played differently. This is by design, and it's a good thing. |
I did not begin in CoH, playing villains exclusively for two entire years before I ever rolled a hero. So its not that I am used to playing heroes and cannot play villains. Most of my top 5 favorite characters are actually villains. Three out of five, to be exact.
You are right about one thing though: I don't play ATs I don't find enjoyable these days. Perhaps this accounts for the paucity of Dominators one finds throughout the game - no other AT is nearly that scarce, and the higher you go, the scarcer they are. There's a reason for that, I'd wager. I can guess what it is
Some people enjoy the challenge of playing difficult, situational powersets. I'm cool with that, but I am not one of them. The first thing I will delete for is a perceived lack of strength. Strength can take different forms, but if I have bosses resisting most of what I can do.... I say weak. Mileage of course will vary.
Or perhaps I just need to roll a fire/fire Dom, who knows.
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Not all that many. But I'm one of them. I love my dominators. They match my play style. I just don't fight PToD elite bosses with them.|
Originally Posted by Garielle
The problem may lie in one simple fact--Dominators do not match your play style. That's not saying it's your (BI's) fault or a lack of skill on your part. Obviously, there are other ATs that you do well with, so you obviously have an understanding of game mechanics. It's not a flaw in the design of Dominators or the existence of PToD either. There are players who play them and enjoy playing them.
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You seem to be saying that since some people enjoy playing them, there is no problem, and that anyone who has an issue with the dominator weakness against PToD simply has a different play style. I disagree. The PToD issue can be fixed... by getting rid of the PToD for EBs. There really is no reason for having PToD on EBs that I can see. They actually make the PToD EBs more protected against control powers than AVs, since EBs start with some control protection. Fix this problem, and more people might play dominators.
I'm thinking of having my Ill/Kin controller switch sides, just so I have a good EB killer with a control primary on the villain side.
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I try to avoid assuming fixes are as simple as that. It's easy for you or I to see here and say, "If you just do X, it will fix problem Y for this archetype". We, however, are standing in a box looking at the issue from one angle. The developers, have much more real data (not estimates or best guesses, but actual statistics) allowing them to look down on the problem and see the whole picture. |
Originally Posted by Mirai
You seem to be saying that since some people enjoy playing them, there is no problem, and that anyone who has an issue with the dominator weakness against PToD simply has a different play style. I disagree. The PToD issue can be fixed... by getting rid of the PToD for EBs. There really is no reason for having PToD on EBs that I can see. They actually make the PToD EBs more protected against control powers than AVs, since EBs start with some control protection. Fix this problem, and more people might play dominators.
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You say that the removal of PToD on EBs would fix the issue for Dominators, and it very well may. Have you given any thought to how this will affect the balance (either positive or negative) for the other archetypes though? Have you thought about what may be necessary to bring those archetypes back into balance?
If there is a problem with a particular AT, the first place you should always look is internal to that AT, and not externally. If you change something externally, then you are skewing everything. If you are visual, picture a 1" by 1" box. Now picture three pennies. Your objective is to place the pennies so that there is one penny directly in the center of the box, and each of the other two pennies is centered exactly one inch from the left side and the right side of the box. Now you have the box, and the left penny and right penny are exactly positioned, but the penny in the box is off-center. Do you move the penny, or try to move the box, and then have to move the other two pennies? Obviously, you just move the penny. Now, in this example, picture each penny as an AT, the one in the box being Dominators. The box itself is, of course, PToD. PToD is currently aligned fine with the other ATs, why change it? Instead just adjust Dominators slightly. Even then, you only do this if, when observed from above, it is indeed off-center and needs adjusting to begin with.
- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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Personally, I just OD on inspirations. That pretty much solves all my EB issues.
The detox afterwards is a bit of a pain though.
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Yes, I've thought about it. It would improve the situation for Mind/ controllers too. Other ATs besides dominators and controllers wouldn't really be affected. Why would my scrappers care whether elite bosses have PToD or not? Show me a balance issue that I've missed. |
Originally Posted by Garielle
You say that the removal of PToD on EBs would fix the issue for Dominators, and it very well may. Have you given any thought to how this will affect the balance (either positive or negative) for the other archetypes though? Have you thought about what may be necessary to bring those archetypes back into balance?
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| The box itself is, of course, PToD. PToD is currently aligned fine with the other ATs, why change it? |
There may very well be a considerable software problem in removing the PToDs. We don't know. The devs have always refused to comment on the problem, for some reason. I don't assume that it would be easy. But as far as I can tell, the problem for dominators would be removed by removing the PToD for elite bosses. A simple idea, but not necessarily a simple fix.
Are the rogue isles just dead?
Should I try rolling hero?
kinda a shame.... villain powersets are SOOOOOOOOOO much better