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Why move Frost up and add in "Frozen Strike"? I would probably keep Frost in the third slot (level 2), move Placate up to level 12, and put Ice Patch back in. This gives a bit more control at level 18 while having some early AoE with Frost (the only AoE power). If Ice Patch seems to defensive, it could be slide over to the Secondary (Armor) and we could instead put in another AoE attack such as Ice Sword Circle (from the Dominator's Ice Assault set).|
Originally Posted by Arctic_Princess
Hello,
The following is my proposed list of Ice Melee Stalker Primary: 1. Frozen Fists 1. Frozen Strike 2. Ice Sword 6. Assassin's Chill 8. Build Up 12. Frost 18. Placate 26. Freezing Touch 32. Greater Ice Sword |
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Originally Posted by Arctic_Princess
1. Hide 2. Frozen Armor 4. Hoarfrost 10. Wet Ice 16. Permafrost 20. Glacial Armor 28. 35. Energy Absorption 38. Hibernate |
So here would be my preferred changes to your suggestion:
Ice Melee:
1. Frozen Fists
1. Frost
2. Ice Sword
6. Assassin's Chill
8. Build Up
12. Placate
18. Ice Sword Circle
26. Freezing Touch
32. Greater Ice Sword
Ice Armor:
1. Hide
2. Frozen Armor
4. Hoarfrost
10. Wet Ice
16. Permafrost
20. Glacial Armor
28. Ice Patch
35. Energy Absorption
38. Hibernate
Two key things: Can't get Hibernate because it's in the epic pools. No way Frost is going to be a lvl 1.
Was pondering this a bit was thinking the primary might work better like this:
1. Frozen Fists
1. Ice Sword
2. Frost
6. Assassin's Chill
8. Build Up
12. Placate
18. Freezing Touch
26. ???
32. Greater Ice Sword
The ??? could be replaced by Arctic Breath (cone so it synergizes with Frost), Frozen Aura (AoE sleep), or Shiver or Benumb (no damage but a good debuff).
For the secondary, I don't think Chilling Embrace is that big of problem as long as it comes later in the set since /dark has offensive toggles. However, it absolutely can not have Hibernate. Plus, Hoarfrost might be lacking since Stalkers have such low HP caps:
1. Hide
2. Frozen Armor
4. Permafrost
10. Glacial Armor
16. Wet Ice
20. Insulator (Dark Regeneration knockoff)
28. Chilling Embrace
35. Energy Absorption
38. Absolute Zero (a tier 9 that instead of buffing the Stalker, it creates an aura that massively debuffs the speed, recharge, regen and damage of nearby enemies. Ends with a crash)
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I wouldn't want them to remove Frozen Aura. Unless the power is deemed 'too much control' for the Stalker's capabilities, there is no precedence for removing a tier 9 attack. If we can get Lightning Rod that doesn't drop Hide, I see not why we can't have an AoE cold attack that sleeps minions.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Two key things: Can't get Hibernate because it's in the epic pools. No way Frost is going to be a lvl 1.
Was pondering this a bit was thinking the primary might work better like this: 1. Frozen Fists 1. Ice Sword 2. Frost 6. Assassin's Chill 8. Build Up 12. Placate 18. Freezing Touch 26. ??? 32. Greater Ice Sword The ??? could be replaced by Arctic Breath (cone so it synergizes with Frost), Frozen Aura (AoE sleep), or Shiver or Benumb (no damage but a good debuff). |
That said, from your proposal, with Shiver it would be a weaker version of Tanker IM and Benumb doesn't fit at all as that's a ranged debuff, not an attack.
If you must replace attacks, look into Ice Assault. It's got Ice Slash and Ice Sword Circle that are possible candidates.
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For the secondary, I don't think Chilling Embrace is that big of problem as long as it comes later in the set since /dark has offensive toggles. However, it absolutely can not have Hibernate. Plus, Hoarfrost might be lacking since Stalkers have such low HP caps: 1. Hide 2. Frozen Armor 4. Permafrost 10. Glacial Armor 16. Wet Ice 20. Insulator (Dark Regeneration knockoff) 28. Chilling Embrace 35. Energy Absorption 38. Absolute Zero (a tier 9 that instead of buffing the Stalker, it creates an aura that massively debuffs the speed, recharge, regen and damage of nearby enemies. Ends with a crash) |
As for Insulator (Dark Regen knockoff)? No. Getting full or near full HP every 30 (or even 60) seconds? On a defense armor set? One with endurance management!? No...just no.
Instead of Insulator, just put in Ice patch for some soft control. If Ice patch is getting replaced from Ice Melee, it'd be a shame to be completely locked out of it...I love that power.
As for the tier 9 change from Hibernate. I dunno. It's hard to think of anything. Perhaps a 'combat' hibernate that basically is a moderate recharging toggle that improves regen a bit, recovery and give a small (like 8%) def buff but renders you unable to use other powers...kind of like a mini-Personal Force Field...you can toggle it on while you move to the next spawn and position yourself to cut down on downtime then turn it off when you're ready to AS.
So from me:
Stalker Ice Melee
1. Frozen Fists (pie-in-the-sky suggestion: Ice Sword)
2. Ice Sword (pie-in-the-sky suggestion: Frost)
3. Frost (pie-in-the-sky suggestion: Ice Slash from Icy Assault)
4. Assassin's Chill
5. Build up
6. Placate
7. Frozen Touch (slight decrease in damage)
8. Greater Ice Sword
9. Frozen Aura
Stalker Ice Armor
1. Hide
2. Frozen Armor
3. Hoarfrost
4. Permafrost
5. Wet Ice
6. Ice Patch
7. Glacial Armor
8. Chilling Embrace
9. Insulator - self toggle (30sec cap), self +regen/+recovery moderate +def all, only affects self
Think of that incarnation of Insulator as the toggle version of Shadow Meld which is like a short duration defensive 'Build up' to bolster your mitigation for a time. Insulator would be kinda-like a portable rest that buffs instead but would only last 30sec at most and recharges much faster. How much regen and recovery, I dunno...
I spent some time thinking about this a while back, and there are actually some interesting subtleties.
First, while the stalker melee sets do lose an AoE in the translation, it's interesting to note that it's *never* the tier 9 AoE (if the set has one). Headsplitter, shockwave, 1K cuts, lightning rod, golden dragonfly, throw spines - stalkers keep all of these. So, if we follow that precedent, stalker ice melee should keep frozen aura.
The second issue is: what do you put at level 2? If you drop frost and the taunt for AS and placate, the natural order would look something like:
1: Frozen Fists
1: Ice sword
2:
6: Assassin's strike
8: Build up
12: Placate
18:
26:
32: Frozen Aura
The three remaining powers to fill the empty slots with are freezing touch, ice patch, and greater ice sword. None of those really seems like a tier 3 power to me - can you imagine the ability to lay an ice patch at level 2? Freezing touch is mechanically the set's best ST attack, and GIS is obviously *supposed* to be the big hitter, even if it doesn't work out that way.
So unless you invent a new attack, whatever you put at level 2 will seem a bit of an odd choice for that slot. The best choice would probably be greater ice sword, even if it does seem a bit odd, simply because freezing touch and ice patch would be even more so. Of course, there's also the possibility of moving ice patch over to the secondary and inventing a new power for the level 2 slot, but that's problematic because...
While I can't say why at the moment, there is no problem at all with leaving chilling embrace in the secondary (remember that dark keeps its mez auras). Icicles does definitely need to go away in favor of hide, but CE would stay. Of course, that leaves no empty spot in the secondary for ice patch.
The secondary has a different problem, though, because stalker leviathan mastery has hibernate in it. In previous cases when a newly proliferated primary/secondary collides with a power in an APP/PPP, the primary/secondary gets changed, so hibernate would have to be replaced. With what, I don't exactly know, but my guess would be some variant on a traditional godmode.
My best guess as to what the sets would look like is:
Ice melee
1: Frozen Fists
1: Ice sword
2: Greater ice sword
6: Assassin's Icicle
8: Build up
12: Placate
18: Ice patch
26: Freezing touch
32: Frozen Aura
Ice armor:
1: Hide
2: Frozen armor
4: Hoarfrost
10: Wet ice
16: Chilling embrace
20: Permafrost
28: Glacial ice
35: Energy absorption
38: <random godmode>
There are also a couple of specific changes I would make to individual powers.
First, frozen fists needs to become a 4 second, scale 1 attack, switch to the 0.83s brawl animation, or both. As it stands, its DPA is absolutely pathetic - the only worse tier 1 attacks are super strength's jab and spines' barbed swipe, and both sets more than make up for it elsewhere.
Second, freezing touch's damage should be 1.96, not 1.68. This is actually more of a bug fix - freezing touch has 6 ticks of 0.28 damage, but based on its endurance cost, it should have *7* ticks. This puts it on par with greater ice sword in damage, which makes it more believable that it would be later on in the set than GIS.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
With Hibernate being available in Leviathan Mastery, I'm gonna have to say that a self-buff tier-9 (godmode) in Ice Armor is a no-go. It'll have to be an enemy debuff, so I think the "Click Auto-Hit Aura Foe -Seed -Recharge -Def" idea is a good way to go.
Muon,
Why would Stalkers have to drop Frost at all? It's just a cone and other sets like Ninja Blade/Broadsword get a cone (a larger one at that) in the 3rd slot.
As for the godmode, maybe keeping in line with the 'Cottage Rule', the tier 9 should do something similar but with an 'extra' added to it?
Using a Stalker like theme: What about something like 'Ice Clone'? Kind of like Hibernate (freeze yourself in a block of ice) and buffs regen/recovery while making you 'phased'. But you have a short window (like the first 10 sec) where, if you turn off the toggle manually, it basically placates all aggro on you, spawns a pet (basically, just leaves the block of ice there) that draws the aggro and you slip out the back, hidden.
Ice/Ice would be nice for a Stalker (at least ignoring the loud sounds you'd make with Ice armour and weapons while prepping for an AS 
).
Primary I'd go with some something along these lines;
*all the -recharge values would need to be dropped incase its just a tad too over powered
1) Frozen Fists
1) Ice Sword
3) Frost
6) Assassin's Strike
8) Build Up
12) Placate
18) Ice Slash
26) Something new - Ice Sword Circle just not going to happen, Frozen Aura and Freezing Touch seem over powered or ill fitting, at least without changes. ISC could be changed into the Demon whip cone power, less targets ect?
32) Greater Ice Sword
The armour set;
1) Hide
2) Frozen Armour
4) Hoarfrost
10) Wet Ice
16) Glacial Armour
20) Perma Frost
28) Energy Absorption (probably requires some modifcation)
35) Ice Patch
38) God Mode - a modified Overload
Leo: since the cottage rule doesn't really apply to power sets that haven'y been made, and only applies to changes to current sets out in use, I don't see the harm in introducing a standard God Mode power as the tier nine, especially since I totally forgot Stalkers get access to Hibernate in the PPPs.
I don't see what's wrong with Ice Sword Circle, personally, though my experience with it has been limited. A modified version ( all imported powers should be modified to fit the new AT anyway ) would be no worse then any other PBAoE Stalkers can get.
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Outside of the combo sweep you can have from Dual Blades, Stalkers dont have any PBAoE's available to them - cones a plenty for sure. Thats why a straight up ISC would not happen and at best would have to be modded into a cone, hence my suggestion turning it into Crack Whip type power.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Right
Leo: since the cottage rule doesn't really apply to power sets that haven'y been made, and only applies to changes to current sets out in use, I don't see the harm in introducing a standard God Mode power as the tier nine, especially since I totally forgot Stalkers get access to Hibernate in the PPPs.
I don't see what's wrong with Ice Sword Circle, personally, though my experience with it has been limited. A modified version ( all imported powers should be modified to fit the new AT anyway ) would be no worse then any other PBAoE Stalkers can get. |
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It's not really based on what other sets get, rather what other sets give up. Every single stalker set loses one AoE or AoE-ish power for assassin's strike. Ice melee has two AoEs. Since all the stalker sets with AoE tier 9s keep them, presumably stalker ice melee would too. That only leaves frost as the AoE to drop to add assassin's strike. Ninja blade/broadsword get to keep their melee cone because they had another non-tier 9 AoE to be removed.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Muon,
Why would Stalkers have to drop Frost at all? It's just a cone and other sets like Ninja Blade/Broadsword get a cone (a larger one at that) in the 3rd slot. |
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Spine Burst, Lightning Rod? I think a PBAoE would be justified for a Stalkers set.
Of course I don't have my heart set on that type of power, a cone would work just as well. I just don't think Stalkers can't have a PBAoE.
Not sure I'd want it, but they might give the hordeling self rez, bit of a waste of a power but a cool animation.
Chilling embrace is not really suitable, only dark armor has aggroing toggles, and they also incapacitate.
I don't see a problem with ice sword circle, as people have quoted, spine burst and lightning rod are in already.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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Well, it's not so much that Every set must lose an AoE for AS. It's more that AoEs are one of the possible things on the chopping block to make the replacement. Looking at Dark Melee, that set could have given up Shadow Maul, as that's an actual AoE attack, but instead it got rid of Dark Consumption (kind of can be an attack if used in conjunction with Soul Drain but it recharges too slow...and we don't get Soul Drain to make the attack more worthwhile either). Then Electric Melee removed Thunder Clap, a non-dmg mitigation power.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
It's not really based on what other sets get, rather what other sets give up. Every single stalker set loses one AoE or AoE-ish power for assassin's strike. Ice melee has two AoEs. Since all the stalker sets with AoE tier 9s keep them, presumably stalker ice melee would too. That only leaves frost as the AoE to drop to add assassin's strike. Ninja blade/broadsword get to keep their melee cone because they had another non-tier 9 AoE to be removed.
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This means, a set can get rid of a PBAoE attack, a utility power or an auxiliary control power in exchange for AS. But what must remain in the set is the string of single target attacks, the tier 9 and the ST control/mitigation power. This is present in every melee set available to Stalker.
Which brings up an interesting point: Fire Melee. Every other set has a ST mitigation power (DM = ToF, MA = Cobra, EM = Stun, Elec = Thunderstrike, etc.) but Fire Melee doesn't. So that kinda leave room for an extra AoE instead.
So Tanker FM would actually be better for us than the Brute/Scrap version as with the Tank version, we can get rid of Combustion for AS and keep Fire Sword Circle and Fire Breath. For the Brute/Scrap version, we'd end up giving up FSC for AS and get Cremate instead.
So it's a point of do we want Cremate or FSC?
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Originally Posted by Minotaur
Chilling embrace is not really suitable, only dark armor has aggroing toggles, and they also incapacitate.
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Well, Fire Melee has DOTs which will mess up Placate. Adding in the lack of any soft or hard control and it has the potential for being a poor set on Stalkers.
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For DoT, see Spine's chance for toxic DoT.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Well, Fire Melee has DOTs which will mess up Placate. Adding in the lack of any soft or hard control and it has the potential for being a poor set on Stalkers.
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For lack of mitigation, that is the appeal of the set. It gives up mitigation for damage. Just like on Scrapper, I see Fire Melee being the go-to set for pure damage, ST or AoE.
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Considering I very rarely even use Placate on my Elec Stalk, I see no reason Fire would be a bad choice.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
For DoT, see Spine's chance for toxic DoT.
For lack of mitigation, that is the appeal of the set. It gives up mitigation for damage. Just like on Scrapper, I see Fire Melee being the go-to set for pure damage, ST or AoE. |
I would *love* FM on stalks.
The issue with dropping Frost, I think, would be nothing else would really work as a good Tier-3 attack. Furthermore, there's really nothing else in Ice Melee that can be dropped effectively for AS without sacrificing some of the control that makes the set feel unique. I can think of one way to hit a potential compromise, though. Remove Ice Patch for AS. Then, stick it in Ice Armor in place of one of the aura toggles.
I hope, regardless, that something is done with it. I want to see some proliferated Ice Melee out there already!
Ice seems conceptually wrong to me - people would notice the intense cold and that would make sneaking around pretty hard.
yeah and moreover
ice power generally benefit more from long fight.
i mean what is the interest of slowing and flooring a mob rech when you while insta kill it and/or placate it?
it would work on a brute/scrapper/tank but even if you do play your stalker like a scrapper, it doesn't mesh well with a silent assassin imo
i mean even /regen on a stalker is designed with placate/AS "hit & run" playstyle in mind
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If you're in a room, the entirety which is below zero, how does that make it hard to sneak around? It's not like the enemy would be able to tell where the cold is coming from...because cold numbs. At best, they'd just know there was a temperature change.|
Originally Posted by Ghostwind_EU
Ice seems conceptually wrong to me - people would notice the intense cold and that would make sneaking around pretty hard.
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Besides, your armor is ice so, conceptually, your body is translucent ice. It basically be as if the enemy is trying to look at a glass panel.
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Originally Posted by Nny_the_mad
yeah and moreover
ice power generally benefit more from long fight. i mean what is the interest of slowing and flooring a mob rech when you while insta kill it and/or placate it? |
But if you have slows, the period you have before the enemy can attack again is extended to 14 seconds (just made that up), giving you 17 seconds before retaliation. It's basically extending your period of effective burst damage (if the enemy can't retaliate over a longer period before you defeat them, it's the same as defeating them faster).
I don't know about you, but there are times I cannot defeat an enemy (or group of enemies) before it can strike back. But with -rech, you've got a better chance of doing that. Not to mention, Ice has control that can sleep or outright hold the enemy, slowing their period to retaliate even more.
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| i mean even /regen on a stalker is designed with placate/AS "hit & run" playstyle in mind |
What better than sneaking up on an unsuspecting enemy? Sneaking up on a sleeping enemy.
Think about it.
From a conceptualization point
Ice melts. No evidence of the murder weapon and any fingerprints get washed away when the ice melts.
Plus the cold in the room...yeah that's the cold chill of death waiting to strike.
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Now that the GR NDA is lifted, it's safe to say that they've fixed this. DA toggles won't affect enemies while you're hidden. That's gonna take a load off of the micromanaging of toggles for a lot of stalkers
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Originally Posted by Minotaur
Not sure I'd want it, but they might give the hordeling self rez, bit of a waste of a power but a cool animation.
Chilling embrace is not really suitable, only dark armor has aggroing toggles, and they also incapacitate. I don't see a problem with ice sword circle, as people have quoted, spine burst and lightning rod are in already. |
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Which is actually quite exciting to me. I know that there aren't many and it doesn't directly affect me right now, but the fact that one could run the two mitigation toggles from Dark, get into position, and then AS to come out of hid stunning / fearing the enemies around you... that's pretty hot. I wonder how much fun it would be to do the same thing with Energy Aura's Repel?|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
Now that the GR NDA is lifted, it's safe to say that they've fixed this. DA toggles won't affect enemies while you're hidden. That's gonna take a load off of the micromanaging of toggles for a lot of stalkers
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That would be one way to scatter the Alpha, eh, eh?
do you all realise that a ice primary would break one of our strongest tool, placate?
any slow or - rech applyed on a mob would make him ignore the placate effect (like placating a mob that is walking on you caltrops)
and a ice set that doesn't apply a -spd,-rech debuff would not be a true ice set.
maybe it's why they won't made a ice set for stalker.
Hello,
I was thinking the other day about Proliferation. Specifically about Ice Melee / Ice Armour for Stalkers.
Conceptually I think it's a good enough idea but mechanics wise (specifically where the powers that need to be in are placed and what exactly gets taken out) I'm not so sure.
I'll start with:
Ice Melee
The following are from the Tanker secondary (hence the levels):
1. Frozen Fists
2. Ice Sword
4. Frost
10. Taunt
16. Build Up
20. Ice Patch
28. Freezing Touch
35. Greater Ice Sword
38. Frozen Aura
Stalker Powers
Hide, Placate, and Assassins's Strike obviously need to be in.
Taunt, Ice Patch, and Frozen Aura need to be removed.
The following is my proposed list of Ice Melee Stalker Primary:
1. Frozen Fists
1. Frozen Strike
2. Ice Sword
6. Assassin's Chill
8. Build Up
12. Frost
18. Placate
26. Freezing Touch
32. Greater Ice Sword
Now I may have put the (un)holy trinity of AS, BU, and Placate in the wrong order. Forgive me if I have.
Now to:
Ice Armor
1. Frozen Armor
1. Hoarfrost
2. Chilling Embrace
6. Wet Ice
8. Permafrost
12. Icicles
18. Glacial Armor
26. Energy Absorption
32. Hibernate
Icicles and Chilling Embrace need to go.
This removal, however, means I am one power short (as Hide comes in as the first power).
1. Hide
2. Frozen Armor
4. Hoarfrost
10. Wet Ice
16. Permafrost
20. Glacial Armor
28.
35. Energy Absorption
38. Hibernate
That's how I propose the proliferated powers to work on the secondary power structure.
So, what should be the level 28 power? Some kind of extra placate (similar to Ninjitsu's Smoke Flash)?
I am stumped.
Anyway, your thoughts and suggestions on if/why/what/where/when/how for Ice Melee and Ice Armor for Stalkers.