So, would you rank S/L the most useful def to build for in mids?
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Biospark,
Posted on: 2010-07-31 19:57 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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No.|
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Votes for nerfing IO Defense buffs.
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Less brazen response: how about keep the IO defense buffs, but raise and increase the options for res buffs mkay?
On-topic: I wouldn't say S/L is necessarily the most "useful", but it's certainly the easiest to build for on most chars.
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Because what we really need is to be even harder to kill.........|
Originally Posted by Tangler
No.
Less brazen response: how about keep the IO defense buffs, but raise and increase the options for res buffs mkay? |
The IO defense buffs are clearly out of control when you have softcapped Blasters running around. They're not the only squishies like that, just the most extreme example. There's a reason why we're having this conversation, and that's because softcapping is very popular with those that choose to really use the IO system. It's that popular because it is extremely effective.
Everyone hates the word 'nerf' but if you don't nerf things then your only other response is to buff everything else until you effectively nerfed it, or ignore it and create a trivial situation that just leads to an excessive feeling of 'grinding'.
A compromise would certainly work, however. Resistance need not be a totally useless IO attribute the way it is in its current form. However, bumping it up and keeping defense based attributes the same would not be the way to go. By themselves, defense or resistance have built in failure points.........but combined it is very difficult to get around.
While I would like to see more resistance bonuses in sets, defense bonuses aren't going to change. Can you imagine the outcry if people had to rework their builds because the devs started moving around bonuses in more than one set? People howled over the Blessing of the Zephyr change, and that was one set only being slightly reduced in effectiveness.
Even if the change doesn't seem much to you (not saying you do), the devs are very reluctant to change anything already in game because of how people can react.
On top of that, it seemed clear that Castle was settling for where things were at for defense. They lowered BotZ's benefits as it gave too much benefit, but the rest remained as they were. Softcapping is apparently okay, but they don't want to make it too easy for us (and I would doubt whether it's worth it for some squishies to go to the def cap, as they have to give other bonuses). Castle noted it might have been better to not allow each AT to softcap, but he was going to have to be okay with it.
That's paraphrasing, obviously, but I'm fairly sure that was the gist, as the issue is of interest to me.
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One thing that I would add to the conversation is the difference in IO sets which offer S/L defense as opposed to "positional" IO set bonuses.
You can live off all the 4-piece bonuses that are "typed", where positional defenses often can get you bigger numbers per bonus (not always), but they are usually at the 5 and 6 piece bonus locations.
Prior to this realization, I was "die-hard" positional defense. You only needed to really focus on Melee and Ranged, and get a decent amount of AoE. But once they "paired" the Defenses up and some veterans kept suggesting to go "typed", I really noticed how you can get some great mileage out of 4-piece bonuses, and conserve some slots to really round-out your builds instead of "stretching" out to grab those 6-piece Oblits, Mako's, ToDs etc...
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Can't raise the resistance numbers too much, the devs have pretty specifically spoken against high defense AND resistance being available at the same time. There is some wiggle room though between what we have now and what they are afraid of.|
Originally Posted by Tangler
No.
Less brazen response: how about keep the IO defense buffs, but raise and increase the options for res buffs mkay? On-topic: I wouldn't say S/L is necessarily the most "useful", but it's certainly the easiest to build for on most chars. |
But I also am one who feels the defense numbers are too high right now. I think I would have more fun if you required outside buffs to hit the softcap without the assistance of a primary or secondary that gave defense.
Meaning, if you put into every single power choice a set that gives defense, and took all the pool power defenses, you still can't cap without using a purple insp or a team mate. But if you have defensive powers build into your character (forcefields, ninjitsu, etc), you can cap on your own. That is what I would like. Get to 35-40%? Sure. But 45%+, ideally no.
It'll never happen, and I accept that. But I would like it.
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This game being so casual friendly and relatively easy to play is what keeps drawing me back to it. I'd rather not see everyone nerfed down (especially for those who have put so much time into IOing out their character).
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In order to get softcapped, anyone with no defense to start with has to gimp other aspects of their build, or take powers that they may otherwise not consider. |
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
But I also am one who feels the defense numbers are too high right now. I think I would have more fun if you required outside buffs to hit the softcap without the assistance of a primary or secondary that gave defense.
Meaning, if you put into every single power choice a set that gives defense, and took all the pool power defenses, you still can't cap without using a purple insp or a team mate. But if you have defensive powers build into your character (forcefields, ninjitsu, etc), you can cap on your own. That is what I would like. Get to 35-40%? Sure. But 45%+, ideally no. It'll never happen, and I accept that. But I would like it. |
I don't know too many blaster players that would take the fighting pool unless they were chasing a softcap, because Tough and Weave are pretty weak by themselves. That's 3 power choices to get around 4% defense. 7% if you count the ability to slot a Steadfast in Tough.
You also get locked into certain IO sets, which are often very expensive, and may not be the best choice to slot in a given power. Have you looked at what Kinetic Combat actually does for the power it's slotted in? The enhancement values on it kind of suck, and you end up using 6 slots anyway, in order to not gimp the power for the defense bonus. And if you put them in powers you don't actually use, you've burned at least 3 enhancement slots that could be used elsewhere.
If you're softcapping a controller to smashing and lethal, chances are you will be slotting Kinetic Combat in Boxing and Brawl to get there. How many controllers actually USE either one of those powers? I'm betting not very many at all. So in order to get to the softcap on S/L those people used 6 slots in powers that they will never use, when those slots COULD have been used to enhance the powers they DO use.
Now, softcapping a blaster to ranged, is actually a little more sensible, but you are still required to use specific sets to get there. Thunderstrike in single target ranged attacks, Eradication in PBAoEs, 2 BotZ in any travel power, probably either Maneuvers or Weave slotted with Red Fortune. A lot of things you are forced into doing to get there.
So, softcapping a character that has no native defense has a price you pay to do it. You will frequently make that character less effective at it's role in order to chase defense bonuses. It wouldn't be very fair to suddenly take that away from the people that decided that trade off was worth it. I agree that it shouldn't be made any easier, but since you have to do so many things you might not want to in order to achieve it, it should be left alone.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Personally, I'd like to see a "kind of" nerf for the IO Def bonuses, but balanced in other ways:
1: lower the bonuses a bit, but each bonus also gives Defense Debuff Resistance. So you can't softcap as easily, but OTOH you can have a more dependable Defense in the 20s and 30s.
2: increase the Resist bonuses a bit.
That would, IMO, balance everything a little better. Softcapping would be harder but having consistent defense at solid levels (20s-30s) wouldn't be hurt since you won't have to worry as much about being debuffed out of it. And you'll be able to layer resists a little bit better to get close to the same overall damage mitigation, although a bit less debuff/control mitigation.
Yeah spend 10 minutes on mids making a softcapped blaster and then come back and try to say its easy again, because its not. You sacrifice a lot, typically end up picking powers youde never dream of having on a blaster, and even then some combos literally dont seem possible (without the pvp io +3% def for sure, with it I dont know.) Bottom line, when you softcap a blaster, you are sacrificing A LOT to get the softcap. Unless you have done it/tried it, you should not be commenting on the difficulty. And considering how hard it is, the outcome still aint that amazing. Softcapped blasters still have their base HP.
But yeah, I am definitely for putting more resistance bonus's in the game. Especially exotic damage resistance.
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Controllers are one of the easier softcaps due to an AOE and a single target Immobilize being perfect for 2 sets of Enfeebled Operations. I think my Plant/Kin/Stone was my 2nd easiest toon to softcap S/L on right after my Ice/Kin Corr and neither of them took the Fighting power pool. And /Kin helps tremendously too.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you're softcapping a controller to smashing and lethal, chances are you will be slotting Kinetic Combat in Boxing and Brawl to get there. How many controllers actually USE either one of those powers? I'm betting not very many at all. So in order to get to the softcap on S/L those people used 6 slots in powers that they will never use, when those slots COULD have been used to enhance the powers they DO use.
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I would vote for changing the core mechanics for "squishy" characters.
For characters with a native Armor power set (Tanker, Brute, Scrapper, Stalker): game mechanics remain unchanged. They defend using their highest defense value.
For characters without a native Armor power set (Blaster, Controller, Corruptor, Defender, Mastermind): game mechanics are revised. Instead of defending with their best defense value, they defend using the average. For example, if an attack is tagged Smashing, Ranged, and Cold, the character defends using the average of those three defenses.
The reason for doing it this way is it still allows the high defense to be useful, but not uniformly so, while simultaneously providing a reason to keep using Force Fields and the like, because they boost defense to several positions instead of 1 or 2.
The problem right now is its too easy to cap to 1 or 2 positions and have that carry you through. That option, IMO, should only be open to armored characters.
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I am aware of all that, and in my earlier post when I said I am ok with it not being changed, that is really the reason why. I know the tradeoffs having gone that route (with help from the forum to pull it off).|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
In order to get softcapped, anyone with no defense to start with has to gimp other aspects of their build, or take powers that they may otherwise not consider.
<snip> Now, softcapping a blaster to ranged, is actually a little more sensible, but you are still required to use specific sets to get there. Thunderstrike in single target ranged attacks, Eradication in PBAoEs, 2 BotZ in any travel power, probably either Maneuvers or Weave slotted with Red Fortune. A lot of things you are forced into doing to get there. So, softcapping a character that has no native defense has a price you pay to do it. You will frequently make that character less effective at it's role in order to chase defense bonuses. It wouldn't be very fair to suddenly take that away from the people that decided that trade off was worth it. I agree that it shouldn't be made any easier, but since you have to do so many things you might not want to in order to achieve it, it should be left alone. |
But I do think that the ABILITY to do it at all, no matter how hard or what tradeoffs, takes a little away from team support characters. I don't think people need to be able to solo on +4/x8. I'd actually like it if being able to was looked at with the same sense of amazement as when some of the more difficult GMs and AVs are solo'd. Instead of it being the goal for farming on multiple different ATs.
Note that I did say "a little" and that I did reiterate I'm ok with the status quo. I have also said in other posts, and I still believe that the way people in CoH can solo the hardest threats is truly amazing and one of the reasons I like the game so much. So I do have some conflicting feelings about it all. I am glad that it is not as easy as some others seem to think it is, and I am glad there are tradeoffs.
In the end, I have fun as it is, and I know most other players do too. And that's really what's important.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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That is way too complex a mechanic. I think it puts too much burden on the devs for the tradeoff. Now, adding small amount of DDR into some pool powers (weave and maneuvers are the obvious ones, but another thread did open the idea of adding new powers to existing pools like was done for APPs and Patrol Pools) an enhancement station buff, a temp power and/or a new unique IO with a small amount of DDR?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I would vote for changing the core mechanics for "squishy" characters.
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that is much more do able, and that would make a fair portion of what you are looking for happen.
besides isn't pve/pvp bad enough? Do you really want 4 different mechanics for the Devs to have to balance independently?
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I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I tend to agree with this assessment, but I think that one major difference between "Armored" and "Squishy" characters is Status/Mez protection. Take for instance my defender who runs around on his solo build with +30% hps, 60%+ S/L resist, 30%+ Energy resist and a 25%+ heal every few seconds. He also sits around 20-25% defense to the four major damage types ( S/L/E/N). Yet, my scrappers can crank up the difficulties to beyond his easily and without being IOed to the gills. All because of mez effects ( Well, not ONLY this. There is also the extra DPS and hps. But if a scrapper could achieve my numbers without IOs they would be very happy. So why does a +1/x4 mob kick my *** ? Answer : Mezz effects).|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I would vote for changing the core mechanics for "squishy" characters.
For characters with a native Armor power set (Tanker, Brute, Scrapper, Stalker): game mechanics remain unchanged. They defend using their highest defense value. For characters without a native Armor power set (Blaster, Controller, Corruptor, Defender, Mastermind): game mechanics are revised. Instead of defending with their best defense value, they defend using the average. For example, if an attack is tagged Smashing, Ranged, and Cold, the character defends using the average of those three defenses. The reason for doing it this way is it still allows the high defense to be useful, but not uniformly so, while simultaneously providing a reason to keep using Force Fields and the like, because they boost defense to several positions instead of 1 or 2. The problem right now is its too easy to cap to 1 or 2 positions and have that carry you through. That option, IMO, should only be open to armored characters. |
So I agree that something could be looked at, but my thoughts are to make the IO set bonuses to mezz resist work more like the Defense Debuff method, where 95% status resist means that the duration of any status effect becomes 5% instead of 50%. Then you will see some remarkably different focus for "Squishy" Builds IMHO.
I could be wrong though.
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Where do FF and Sonic Defenders stand in this proposal? Squishy or non-squishy?
They have native armour and mez protection.
The reason Resistance IO bonuses aren't very good is that Resistance, once granted, cannot be taken away. (Well, except by unresistable -Res debuffs, which are very rare if they exist at all these days). Since resistance resists resitance debuffs, the only way to counter it is to pile on more damage, which affects those with and without resistance equally.
Defence on the other hand, is countered by anything with Aim or Buildup, or a DE Quartz resonator, or Fortitude, or def debuffs. Pretty much half the enemy groups in the game
have some counter to defence. And these counters make a huge difference to those with defence, but never more than double the incoming damage to those without defence.
Not sure which person you were addressing Dr.Mike
My idea was strictly related to "Status" effects. Actual damage resistance (to me) is balanced just fine, with the possible exceptions of Tough (which IMO is too low for blasters and scrappers) and the Entire Sonic Resonance set (which should protect the defender better, again IMO).
FF as a set is extremely nice because you get lots of base defense and can stack even more on top with IO sets and Pool powers. Topping it all off with basic "mezz" protection makes the set very "Armored" in it's playstyle. IF you take away this status protection, I think the set becomes very "average" for a defender set. Perhaps even underpowered.
Thats the fulcrum point as I see it.
As far as the whole "soft-cap" craze goes, it takes such specific powers and IO sets for anyone that is not ALREADY defense-based to achieve this to 1-2 positions (not to mention a boatload of cash) that I think it should be left alone. Especially, with the fact (as you pointed out) there are so many ways in the game for critters to reduce or neutralize this advantage in a hurry. As far as adding DDR to pools, I dont think so. Its just my personal opinion, but ONLY powersets that depend on Defense to survive should have DDR.
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^^^ That is 100% QFT
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Originally Posted by Biospark
My idea was strictly related to "Status" effects. Actual damage resistance (to me) is balanced just fine, with the possible exceptions of Tough (which IMO is too low for blasters and scrappers) and the Entire Sonic Resonance set (which should protect the defender better, again IMO).
As far as the whole "soft-cap" craze goes, it takes such specific powers and IO sets for anyone that is not ALREADY defense-based to achieve this to 1-2 positions (not to mention a boatload of cash) that I think it should be left alone. Especially, with the fact (as you pointed out) there are so many ways in the game for critters to reduce or neutralize this advantage in a hurry. As far as adding DDR to pools, I dont think so. Its just my personal opinion, but ONLY powersets that depend on Defense to survive should have DDR. |
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If IO sets also had Resistances worth getting, I would be doing a combination of Defense and Resistance based on what kind of toon I was playing.
For example as an Ice Tanker, I may want some S/L Resistance just so spikes don't hurt as much. But sadly, IO Sets are rediculously one sided towards Defense, which is buffed massively per IO set.
Votes for nerfing IO Defense buffs.
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Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484