Hover speed? Intel Codes? ToHit? Taunt kick?
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2010-07-30 14:57 in Player Questions
The simple version of the hit or miss formula is (To-Hit - Target's Defense) x Accuracy = Final hit chance. So to-hit, point for point, counters defense. Of course, it's limited so any end value outside the 5%-95% range is adjusted to fit within, before Accuracy.
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I would guess you have the AT dropdown box set to 'Tanker'. All of the pool power attacks taunt when used by a tank.
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Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
Why does Mid's list a taunt on Jump Kick? does it actually taunt?
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Slow. Hover's default fly speed is supposed to be the same, or close to, your base flying speed. |
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
Here we go:
What is the fly speed of hover and group fly. I can't find it anywhere and Mids only lists percentages. |
On my Ill / Storm I have no fly enhancements on Hover and two crafted fly enhancements on Swift. Flight speed is around 17mph.
Group Fly: hard to say. I haven't ever taken one to 50. It's slower than normal fly though.
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| I found an old CoH Code in an Intel Motherboard box. I know it's only for a new account, but is it an unlimited account or trial? Is it 14 day or 30? I'd like to give it away, but won't bother if it's no different than a free trial. |
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| What good is toHit really? I never understood it and therefore shun powers like Tactics, but I feel like I'm missing something. |
ToHit is the direct answer to Defense, and thus is more important than Accuracy in determining whether or not you actually hit something.
However, because of the way the game engine works you'll always have a 5% chance to hit something and a 5% chance to miss no matter what your accuracy and to-hit numbers are. This means that there is a practical limit on how much to-hit and accuracy can help you hit something.
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In Mids, click 'View Totals' and the 'Misc Buffs' tab in the resulting window. It lists Run speed, Jump speed and height, and Fly speed. Then, toggle on the power in question, Hover, Fly, G-Fly, Energy Flight, whatever you have, even Swift, and you can see the numbers change, dynamically.|
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
... What is the fly speed of hover and group fly. I can't find it anywhere and Mids only lists percentages.
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| ...I found an old CoH Code in an Intel Motherboard box. I know it's only for a new account, but is it an unlimited account or trial? Is it 14 day or 30? I'd like to give it away, but won't bother if it's no different than a free trial. |
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| ...What good is To-Hit really? I never understood it and therefore shun powers like Tactics, but I feel like I'm missing something. |
Looks like there are answers to your other questions...
(Edit) Aaand scooped by Je Saist.
Be Well!
Fireheart
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Nope! Scrapper in this case. I can also see it on other ATs too.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
I would guess you have the AT dropdown box set to 'Tanker'. All of the pool power attacks taunt when used by a tank.
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I suppose the smarter question is what effect tactics has on accuracy slotting. Is anything tactics can do going to make it so you don't need to slot as much?|
Originally Posted by je_saist
ToHit is the direct answer to Defense, and thus is more important than Accuracy in determining whether or not you actually hit something. However, because of the way the game engine works you'll always have a 5% chance to hit something and a 5% chance to miss no matter what your accuracy and to-hit numbers are. This means that there is a practical limit on how much to-hit and accuracy can help you hit something. |
I'd like to do a test by using no accuracy enhancments and only Tactics and some other IO bonuses to see what effect it has.
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Sweet! Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Fireheart
In Mids, click 'View Totals' and the 'Misc Buffs' tab in the resulting window. It lists Run speed, Jump speed and height, and Fly speed. Then, toggle on the power in question, Hover, Fly, G-Fly, Energy Flight, whatever you have, even Swift, and you can see the numbers change, dynamically.
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Open Mids.|
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
I suppose the smarter question is what effect tactics has on accuracy slotting. Is anything tactics can do going to make it so you don't need to slot as much?
I'd like to do a test by using no accuracy enhancments and only Tactics and some other IO bonuses to see what effect it has. |
Make a build. Select Tactics. Turn tactics on by making the little toggle button green. Look at final accuracy chance of an attack/debuff/whatever. Turn tactics off by making the little toggle button not-green. Look at final accuracy chance of an attack/debuff/whatever.
Slot an accuracy in your attack/debuff/whatever. Look at final accuracy chance of attack/debuff/whatever. Turn tactics on. Look at final accuracy chance of attack/debuff/whatever.
That is what it does.
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Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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... my gut reaction is... no.|
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
I suppose the smarter question is what effect tactics has on accuracy slotting. Is anything tactics can do going to make it so you don't need to slot as much?
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Now, I haven't actually run the numbers, this is just from playing experience. First, To-Hit buffs are Schedule B enhancement, which means an even con SO will deliver a 20% buff. If you cap this into ED you'll be pushing a 50%~60% boost.
On SO builds, even if you slam tactics into ED (on a tank) you'll only have about an 11% boost. This is actually a lot of to-hit. Only thing is, in my play experience, it does not replace slotting powers with an accuracy boost. There's also another reason I would not skip putting at least one acc boost in acc-check powers: most builds have no protection to to-hit debuffs.
This is one of the key differences between Focused Accuracy and Tactics. FA offers a high to-hit debuff resistance, which means that powers that lower your to-hit are much less effective. In high level play you'll encounter multiple enemies with accuracy / to-hit debuffs. Tactics lacks this protection.
That being said, on SO builds, there are very few powers that I'd invest more than one accuracy enhancement in to begin with. For the most part I wouldn't try to push the performance envelope of an avatar on SO's, so I wouldn't be looking to get into situations where I would need an extra to-hit or accuracy buff.
Against SO's, on it's own, Tactics won't change your base states enough to drastically change most of your personal slotting choices.
On IO builds most powers that have an acc-check also have IO sets that combine accuracy checks with recharges, endurance reductions, and effect boosts. Ergo, if you are slotting for sets you'll pick up some accuracy boosts anyways on most powers that have acc-checks.
Against IO's, on it's own, Tactic's again won't really change most set choices.
That being said, one of the problems with IO's is that you may not get the enhancements you actually want, or you may want to focus on a different aspect of a power. Say, you have a set like this:
- Effect / Accuracy
- Effect / Recharge
- Effect / Recharge / Accuracy
- Effect / End
- End / Recharge
For these types of situations I like to use the term Edging.
Tactics, from my point of view, is an Edging tool. On it's own it's not a replacement for any particular slotting choice.
When coupled with the possible boosts from IO sets it enables me, on a situational basis, to round out a build for the effects I want to have.
Does that answer your question?
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PLEASE NOTE: je_saist is only part right. Different ATs get different buff values --|
Originally Posted by je_saist
On SO builds, even if you slam tactics into ED you'll only have about an 11% boost.
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Defenders' base value for Tactics is 12.5% ToHit.
Controller/Corruptor/VEAT base value is 10%.
HEATs get 9%, Dominator/Masermind get 7.5%, all other ATs get 7%. These are the archetypes where the final numbers start looking anemic.
Although he is correct in that Tactics does not grant tohit debuff protection, so if you don't have any enhancements slotted and are facing, for example, Circle of Thorns... prepare for whiff-fest.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Tactics three-slotted for to-hit can sort of replace accuracy on a Defender: tactics will give you a 95% chance of hitting an even-con opponent. A single accuracy SO will give you 99%, but this is capped at 95%. The difference comes at higher levels: the accuracy SO will keep you at 95% when facing a +1 opponent, while Tactics won't.|
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
I suppose the smarter question is what effect tactics has on accuracy slotting. Is anything tactics can do going to make it so you don't need to slot as much?
I'd like to do a test by using no accuracy enhancments and only Tactics and some other IO bonuses to see what effect it has. |
On any other archetype, Tactics is weaker, and cannot replace accuracy enhancements.
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doh. I forgot this was one of the pool powers that still changed numbers depending on AT.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PLEASE NOTE: je_saist is only part right. Different ATs get different buff values --
Defenders' base value for Tactics is 12.5% ToHit. Controller/Corruptor/VEAT base value is 10%. HEATs get 9%, Dominator/Masermind get 7.5%, all other ATs get 7%. These are the archetypes where the final numbers start looking anemic. |
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| Although he is correct in that Tactics does not grant tohit debuff protection, so if you don't have any enhancements slotted and are facing, for example, Circle of Thorns... prepare for whiff-fest. |
At lower levels there are the Tsoo which can shred acc / to-hit. Banished Pantheons can also take acc / to-hit away. Council also have common enemies that drop to-hit / acc.
Not exactly a complete list, but there pretty much are enemies at most level ranges that can put a dent on your ability to hit them.
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This made me curious so I took a look at Jump Kick as well as Boxing, Kick and Air Superiority. All of them apparently have a taunt that lasts 13.5 seconds, at least according to the info window. When you look at the Effects window though, there is no taunt listed for any of them. I'm guessing this is because of one of two things:|
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
Nope! Scrapper in this case. I can also see it on other ATs too.
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1: Just an "oops" on the part of the Mids folks
2: Not really a taunt, but is instead just a way of showing the "look at me, I just whacked you" effect that you can get when you're playing without taunting toons.
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I'm pretty sure that it's a limitation of Mids'. Each powerset that's available to multiple AT's (like Dark Melee, for example, which 4 ATs can take) is a separate entry in the database. I can't open Mids' at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that there's only one database entry for each pool power. Since the powers use damage/buff/whatever scalars, most effects can be automatically adjusted for AT modifiers. But if the effect is purely AT dependent; Mids' doesn't know how to add or subtract it for other ATs. Therefore, on a very few powers, there is extraneous data that only applies to a couple ATs.
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Originally Posted by Pyber
This made me curious so I took a look at Jump Kick as well as Boxing, Kick and Air Superiority. All of them apparently have a taunt that lasts 13.5 seconds, at least according to the info window. When you look at the Effects window though, there is no taunt listed for any of them. I'm guessing this is because of one of two things:
1: Just an "oops" on the part of the Mids folks 2: Not really a taunt, but is instead just a way of showing the "look at me, I just whacked you" effect that you can get when you're playing without taunting toons. |
@Roderick
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Ah okay, that makes sense. I hadn't thought it through in that way.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
I'm pretty sure that it's a limitation of Mids'. Each powerset that's available to multiple AT's (like Dark Melee, for example, which 4 ATs can take) is a separate entry in the database. I can't open Mids' at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that there's only one database entry for each pool power. Since the powers use damage/buff/whatever scalars, most effects can be automatically adjusted for AT modifiers. But if the effect is purely AT dependent; Mids' doesn't know how to add or subtract it for other ATs. Therefore, on a very few powers, there is extraneous data that only applies to a couple ATs.
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It more confirms what I suspected, but it's very detailed, thanks |
Originally Posted by je_saist
... my gut reaction is... no.
Now, I haven't actually run the numbers, this is just from playing experience. First, To-Hit buffs are Schedule B enhancement, which means an even con SO will deliver a 20% buff. If you cap this into ED you'll be pushing a 50%~60% boost. On SO builds, even if you slam tactics into ED (on a tank) you'll only have about an 11% boost. This is actually a lot of to-hit. Only thing is, in my play experience, it does not replace slotting powers with an accuracy boost. There's also another reason I would not skip putting at least one acc boost in acc-check powers: most builds have no protection to to-hit debuffs. This is one of the key differences between Focused Accuracy and Tactics. FA offers a high to-hit debuff resistance, which means that powers that lower your to-hit are much less effective. In high level play you'll encounter multiple enemies with accuracy / to-hit debuffs. Tactics lacks this protection. That being said, on SO builds, there are very few powers that I'd invest more than one accuracy enhancement in to begin with. For the most part I wouldn't try to push the performance envelope of an avatar on SO's, so I wouldn't be looking to get into situations where I would need an extra to-hit or accuracy buff. Against SO's, on it's own, Tactics won't change your base states enough to drastically change most of your personal slotting choices. On IO builds most powers that have an acc-check also have IO sets that combine accuracy checks with recharges, endurance reductions, and effect boosts. Ergo, if you are slotting for sets you'll pick up some accuracy boosts anyways on most powers that have acc-checks. Against IO's, on it's own, Tactic's again won't really change most set choices. That being said, one of the problems with IO's is that you may not get the enhancements you actually want, or you may want to focus on a different aspect of a power. Say, you have a set like this:
For these types of situations I like to use the term Edging. Tactics, from my point of view, is an Edging tool. On it's own it's not a replacement for any particular slotting choice. When coupled with the possible boosts from IO sets it enables me, on a situational basis, to round out a build for the effects I want to have. Does that answer your question? |
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You should consider getting the Kismet +Acc instead; despite the name, it provides an additional 6% ToHit, nearly as much as Tactics for Scrappers and Tanks.|
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
It more confirms what I suspected, but it's very detailed, thanks
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It'll improve your HitChance a bit without costing a power slot or any endurance. (And Tactics is a fairly high-cost toggle.)
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On a Defender Tactics is VERY useful, with one Acc SO in an attack you can still be capped on your chance to hit higher level mobs... and it affects the entire team. One defender can give, slotted to ED cap, over 19% tohit buff to the entire team. That will have everyone on the team reliably hitting +4 mobs, seeing stealthed/invisible mobs and generally working more efficiently. TWO defenders running Tactics will give the team ~28% tohit effectively capping hit chances against nearly anything you'll be fighting.|
Originally Posted by Jordan_Yen
It more confirms what I suspected, but it's very detailed, thanks
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Controllers are nearly as well off providing ~15% to hit buff from slotted Tactics. Don't forget that even the lower amounts you get from melee characters will stack with the rest of the team... there's a reason Leadership is a staple of most superteams.
Tohit is more effective than accuracy since it's a direct addition to your chance to hit while accuracy is a percentage increase of your tohit chance. To put it more plainly, you have (for most powers) a base chance to hit an even level mob of 75%. Adding an even level accuracy SO to that attack gives you a 33% boost to the 75% base moving your chance to hit an even level mob to 95% (100% capped to 95%). Now if you're facing higher level foes your base chance to hit drops quickly, and as your 75% base chance is lowered (I forget the formula but it's something on the order of -10% for each +1 level of the foe) that SO will be giving a proportionally lower benefit.
What To Hit buffs do is modify your base chance to hit BEFORE the accuracy SO is added. That makes your accuracy slotting more effective as it's giving 33% more of a higher base number.
Another benefit is facing mobs with defense... Rikti drones, Sky Raider force field buffs, Vengeance buffed Nemesis and the like. The mob's defense is subtracted from your base chance to hit FIRST, then any to hit buffs are added and finally your accuracy slotting is added. A 15% tohit buff will directly eliminate a mob's 15% defense.
All in all tohit buffs are considerably more powerful than simply adding more accuracy enhancements, and they affect all your powers. That's the reason why the Kismet +6% tohit IO (mislabeled as +6% accuracy) is a unique... tohit is that powerful.
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There's one situation where accuracy is better than to-hit: when you're facing very high defenses, very high to-hit debuffs, or a combination of the two. Defense and to-hit are applied before the minimum hit chance is set to 5%, so if your to-hit buffs aren't strong enough to get your chance above 5%, they do nothing. Accuracy, on the other hand, is applied after, so with a single accuracy SO, your minimum hit chance can never fall below 6.6%.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
You should consider getting the Kismet +Acc instead; despite the name, it provides an additional 6% ToHit, nearly as much as Tactics for Scrappers and Tanks.
It'll improve your HitChance a bit without costing a power slot or any endurance. (And Tactics is a fairly high-cost toggle.) |
I hadn't thought of it that way. That's pretty good advice, thanks
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Wow. I think I've been clearly underestimating ToHit. I'm going to have to take another look at my builds and see if I should make some changes.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
On a Defender Tactics is VERY useful, with one Acc SO in an attack you can still be capped on your chance to hit higher level mobs... and it affects the entire team. One defender can give, slotted to ED cap, over 19% tohit buff to the entire team. That will have everyone on the team reliably hitting +4 mobs, seeing stealthed/invisible mobs and generally working more efficiently. TWO defenders running Tactics will give the team ~28% tohit effectively capping hit chances against nearly anything you'll be fighting.
Controllers are nearly as well off providing ~15% to hit buff from slotted Tactics. Don't forget that even the lower amounts you get from melee characters will stack with the rest of the team... there's a reason Leadership is a staple of most superteams. Tohit is more effective than accuracy since it's a direct addition to your chance to hit while accuracy is a percentage increase of your tohit chance. To put it more plainly, you have (for most powers) a base chance to hit an even level mob of 75%. Adding an even level accuracy SO to that attack gives you a 33% boost to the 75% base moving your chance to hit an even level mob to 95% (100% capped to 95%). Now if you're facing higher level foes your base chance to hit drops quickly, and as your 75% base chance is lowered (I forget the formula but it's something on the order of -10% for each +1 level of the foe) that SO will be giving a proportionally lower benefit. What To Hit buffs do is modify your base chance to hit BEFORE the accuracy SO is added. That makes your accuracy slotting more effective as it's giving 33% more of a higher base number. Another benefit is facing mobs with defense... Rikti drones, Sky Raider force field buffs, Vengeance buffed Nemesis and the like. The mob's defense is subtracted from your base chance to hit FIRST, then any to hit buffs are added and finally your accuracy slotting is added. A 15% tohit buff will directly eliminate a mob's 15% defense. All in all tohit buffs are considerably more powerful than simply adding more accuracy enhancements, and they affect all your powers. That's the reason why the Kismet +6% tohit IO (mislabeled as +6% accuracy) is a unique... tohit is that powerful. |
Yes, and Tactics does more than just buff To-Hit.
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...ership.Tactics
It gives resistance to Perception de-buffs and buffs Perception (to help you spot those sneaky buggers and resist smoke-bombs and such). It also resists Confuse and Terrorize.
As for Focused Accuracy, besides only being available to 4 ATs, and not until level 41, it also gives a To-Hit buff and Perception resistance and buff. It also gives resistance to To-Hit debuffs - which is very nice!
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...cused_Accuracy
However, the buff to To-Hit is actually considerably Smaller than what Tactics gives - it's former power has been shunted over to a 20% buff to global Accuracy. I'd also like to point out that you could run all three Leadership toggles for the Endurance cost of Focused Accuracy. (Well, 2 of them, anyway.)
Additionally, Focused Accuracy is self-only, while Tactics is an AoE party buff and stackable with other party buffs. I guess my point is that, even for Tankers, Leadership is an excellent pool and Tactics is a fine power.
Be Well!
Fireheart
>.> I always had the impression that +acc is better than +to hit simply for that fact that to hit is additive while acc is multiplicative.
Example:
The only time multiplication is worse than addition is when you multiply times 0 or 1.
5 + 0 = 5 compared to 5 x 0 = 0 
5 + 1 = 6 compared to 5 x 1 = 5 :/
5 + 2 = 7 compared to 5 x 2 = 10 
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Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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Except you are not multiplying by whole numbers, but percentages.|
Originally Posted by _Pine_
>.> I always had the impression that +acc is better than +to hit simply for that fact that to hit is additive while acc is multiplicative.
Example: The only time multiplication is worse than addition is when you multiply times 0 or 1. 5 + 0 = 5 compared to 5 x 0 = 0 5 + 1 = 6 compared to 5 x 1 = 5 :/ 5 + 2 = 7 compared to 5 x 2 = 10 ! |
Furthermore, the numbers that are additive include the subtractive numbers from defense before the multiplication ever kicks in.
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Here we go:
What is the fly speed of hover and group fly. I can't find it anywhere and Mids only lists percentages.
I found an old CoH Code in an Intel Motherboard box. I know it's only for a new account, but is it an unlimited account or trial? Is it 14 day or 30? I'd like to give it away, but won't bother if it's no different than a free trial.
What good is toHit really? I never understood it and therefore shun powers like Tactics, but I feel like I'm missing something.
Why does Mid's list a taunt on Jump Kick? does it actually taunt?
If a redname sees this, could they please consider implementing a booster affiliate program?
The reason I ask is because I've spent the last week upgrading the guides on my site and creating new detailed articles on each of the boosters and why you'd want them. I'll upload them regardless, but it'd be nice if I could get some credit for it