Ranged/Armor AT!

Not the same!

They could even do it like a VEAT!

Dual Pistols/Widows style secondary, call it "Longbow Elite" unlocks at lvl 20!

Which would beg the question of "what's the point?". It would be a nominally damage based AT that can't deal damage. How is that at all useful?

I'd much rather see an assault/(support + armor) AT than a straight up ranged/armor AT. Damage evenly spread between ranged and melee (so that you can close to melee to deal your entire potential of damage or stay at range and only deal a portion of your potential damage) and support split between personal support and team support (to keep you alive while in melee while giving you a reason to exist on a team). It's be more like the ******* child of a corrupter and a scrapper than anything else, and be much more balanced and playable than a pure ranged/armor AT.

It'd be funner to play then a Blastermind.

truthfully, I don't care...I'd want it for concept purposes. This is me, wanting the hero I pictured when I picked up the box.

If it's not up to Scrapper or Blaster levels. Oh well.

Though I don't see why it couldn't be up to VEAT levels, seeing as they're ranged/armor now.

But doesn't fit with the concept. Have a force field generator following you.

Could do the same with Force Fields or Sonic...but it doesn't give the feel of what I know I'm looking for in my concept.

Though, it does give me a thought on how to do it, and keep it within Corrs/Defender. I'll have to come up with a suggestion for a new Buff/Debuff Power Set!

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

....This is an interesting solution that I never really entertained.
However, the problem I do see is that Arachnos EATs, for one, don't have to make any sacrifice to do full damage, and STILL get very tough defences. I mean, Crab Spiders especially are effectively Range/Armour, given you can skip on the melee attacks they have (Same with HEATs, who have more powers in Primary and Secondary)
Given a chunk of VEAT mitigation is in Defences, Rikti would arguably have to have higher resistances to make up for lack of defences. I know that I've not seen any Rikti with defences...except for Guardian shields and those !!!!! Drones...

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I don't think so. Primaries would have 4 melee attacks, 4 ranged attacks, and a self buff (re: BU or equivalent) and Secondaries would have a weak mez toggle, 2-3 armor powers, and a remaining suite of support powers. It would play much the same as a nominal assault/armor AT with the exception that it wouldn't be as tough (thanks to lacking full armor capabilities) but would provide more force multiplication (thanks to having some support abilities).

The biggest problem with designing any AT with a more than tangential focus on ranged damage as well as full support is that you start getting into the realms of tankmagery. By diluting the survivability or damage you risk rendering the AT largely redundant: if damage is too low, what's the point of bringing them onto a team when you could grab a Scrapper and if the survivability is too low, what's the point of bringing them onto a team when you could grab a Blaster. By mixing a support role into the armor subset, you allow for the AT to have a function on a team even when there are other ATs that already fulfill the role of hardy damage dealer (Brute, Scrapper) which an assault/armor AT would be attempting to fulfill.

Where the powersets are concerned, it would actually be rather simple considering the powersets we've already got. The Fire secondary would be a combination of thermal radiation and fiery aura. The Ice secondary would be a combination of cold domination and ice armor. An Energy set could be a combination of Force Field and Energy Aura or Kinetics.

Well, for the Armor sets, they pretty much are *just* 2-3 powers. Looking at sets like Energy Aura or Electric Armor, there's only 3 core defense powers with the rest being utility or filler/'you can skip this power' choices. IMO, I still don't think to mix so much onto 1 AT is right.

And that's why I believe an Assault/Armor AT would be just dandy. Overall, you're diluting the damage (Every assault set lacks the Nuke or tier 9 melee attack) and providing utility (again, assault sets have a spot for 2 utility powers in the form of a buff and a debuff/control.

Besides, spreading the focus of the AT so much either limits what role it will take (you're stuck as 2nd wing melee or support or damage, depends how the mods let it fly) or overpower it to 'do it all'.



Yeah, now link it with the melee set and you've got a reason to use those buffs/debuffs...because they're needed to keep you alive in melee.

Speaking of roles, the regular ATs usually have a 'base role' they can fill. I'd imagine an Assault/Armor AT could actually be an Armor/Assault AT and be more defensive. The Assault sets are already mild on damage, nothing extreme or bursty, so could be an alternative to a Tanker. Not as defensive but more aggressive.

A melee/buff&armor AT could basically be a 'sub-melee' that can do some spot support. Not nearly as supportive as a Defender/Corruptor but not as frustrating because you get mez protection.

You're kidding, right? Energy Aura and Elec Armor are your guideposts, and, even then, you can't get them right? Elec Armor and Energy Aura are designed to be utility armor sets. Elec has 4 powers that must be taken at a minimum in order to have even a remote chance of surviving decently (Charged Armor, Conductive Shield, Static Shield, and Energize) with others that fulfill utility and survivability roles (Power Sink and Grounded). Energy Aura virtually requires 7 of its powers (all but CP and Overload) or did you forget that Energy Drain has a heal component attached to it.

When looking at normal armors that aren't designed around having massive utility, only having 2-3 armors and a mez prot power looks rather sparse. SR has 6 direct armors, a mez toggle, a single utility power, and a god mode. Regen has an entire suite of powers focused on personal survivability, only 2 of which are actually skippable. Invuln is the same. If you honestly believe that the armor sets are pretty much just comprised of 2-3 powers and a mez toggle with the rest just filled with utility stuff, I have to wonder if you've even looked at an armor set.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. What's the point of having ranged powers if you're going to be in melee all the time regardless? What's the point of having a full strength armor set if you're not going to be spending all of your time in melee? An assault/armor set would be like having a lower damage Scrapper on a team: there simply isn't a point to it. This is why you lower survivability and add support. While solo, the support bolsters the existing survivability. While on a team, the support allows you to contribute where your lower damage and survivability would otherwise prevent you from doing so.

A "balanced" assault/armor AT (i.e. lower damage to compensate for ranged capabilities) would always take second chair to virtually any other damage AT in the game: Blasters would do more damage, Scrappers and Brutes would be both harder to kill and do more damage.

That's a lark. Did you not read what I was saying previously? If you provide an even division of melee and ranged powers in the attack set you force a decision between going into melee to deal full damage by using all of your attacks or sticking to the periphery of the fight and dealing less.

Are you looking at the same Assaults sets that I am? Without equivocation, all of the Dominator Assault sets look to have very nice on the damage from where I'm standing. Earth Assault has both Seismic Smash and Heavy Mallet. Electricity Assault has Charged Brawl and Havoc Punch. Energy Assault has Bone Smasher and Total Focus. Fiery Assault has both Incinerate(!) and Blaze(!). Should I go on? Whenever I see the assault sets, they generally look like they got the best powers from their parents. They don't seem light on the damage in the least.

What you're suggesting with an armor/assault AT is essentially a Tanker with some ranged attacks, which I heartily doubt will happen, especially since you're, without a doubt, going to be coughing up either damage or survivability to counter the advantages of range. At that point, you should start asking yourself why not just bring a tanker?

Any variant on an AT with ranged damage and an armor set is going to force you to ask the question of "why?" simply because it's going to be bringing two things to a team, damage and survivability, neither of which it's going to do any better than other ATs that are already in game. Unless it has some secondary functionality to account for the lack of capability within a team, it's not going to be balanced, much less an attractive option.

By providing it with a support sub-role, there is actually a point to bringing it, to such an extent that it actually allows the AT to have a purpose beyond making the existing ATs look better. Armor powers would present to offset the reliance on melee damage to reach full damage potential. Support powers would be present to offset the lower performance that would have to be present with both ranged damage and a degree of survivability greater than Blasters. You can't have full ranged damage and survivability higher than base without rendering Blasters redundant (by dealing the same damage while being safer to play as well). No matter how you build it, the support needs to be present to any extent to make the AT a viable and balanced option within the AT "marketplace".

If you want to argue that it would be too strong, remember that I'm defining support as team support. The usefulness of the powers in the secondary while solo beyond the armor sets would be limited (i.e. make all but a couple of them targeted buffs) so that, while solo, they provide nothing, forcing the required performance balance. Similarly, there would be animation time considerations: you can't play full support and full damage. You have to choose to allocate your time in order to fulfill one role or the other so that, though you may be able to deal the same damage as a Scrapper, you wouldn't be able to do any support at the same time (which means you're fulfilling the role of a Scrapper while being easier to kill).

If I were to design it, I would make it so that, at best, you can manage roughly 75% of the damage and survivability of a Scrapper while supporting at roughly the 75% of the support functionality of a Defender. On a team, you would act much like a Corruptor (less support than a Defender but more damage), with the exception that you expose yourself to more risk while being harder to kill.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Personally, I'm a massive fan of click based survivability, though I know I'm in the minority there. I really wish that the devs would create more sets around the */Regen model rather than the */SR model.

The biggest problem with designing survivability around clicks is the issue of recharge and animation time consumption. If the powers are affected by +rech, you could get to the point where powers that are intended to have only 50% uptime with SO slotting (which it seems like you're suggesting) have substantially better uptimes, potentially perma (just look at Dull Pain). Similarly, if powers have low durations (such as you're suggesting) to go with those relatively high uptimes, you're going to have to start accounting for the animation time that those powers consume over time because you'll essentially be planned around losing a specific percentage of your time to get your defenses.

Those should have easy solutions. Point for point:

If recharge is a problem and a specific uptime has to be enforced (I envision 50/50 so as to not slant participation, but I can see 60/40 in favour of melee to account for some buffer before it drops), then the simple solution is to make these powers unaffected by recharge. Toggles provide constant protection, these provide semi-constant protection. If we can set them all on Auto, that'd be the best.

If animation time is a problem, then these powers don't need to have rooting animations, only visual effects, if that. Precedent for this already exists in the form of Temporary Invulnerability. This is a power that, while it has an animation, this animations can be interrupted by OTHER POWERS.

If anything, the actual act of clicking too many clicks too often would probably be the problem, which is why such an AT would probably need some kind of additional quality of life improvement to the effect of a macro "powexec_name power 1$$powexec_name power 2$$powexec_name power 3" That you could either spam, hold or just single-click that would activate all of your clicks. Possibly an inherent power of some sort.

The reason is that we'll be clicking things every 60 seconds or so (30 up, 30 down), and that can get overwhelming when you have three or four things to click, so an easier solution is necessary. I don't want to go with a higher cycle time, either, nothing like 2 minutes up, 2 minutes down because I'm looking to swap stances in the middle of a fight, not alternate between fights. Being able to alternate between fights just makes one approach superior, and I want BOTH to be useful and both to actually be used.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I wouldn't be adverse to the recharge being unaffected by buffs or debuffs (which is one of the reasons I qualified that statement with "if"), but when you look at the general opinions on those powers that already do so (OwtS and SoW, namely) they're not generally that popular. Of course, that could just as easily be due to the fact that they're set to have a comparatively low uptime ratio and a long base recharge and "weak" effects (when compared to true god modes with more substantial crashes). Either way, it's an issue that would need to be addressed, though if recharge isn't going to be enhanceable, I would expect there to be multiple enhanceable attributes to "make up" for the lack of enhancing what would otherwise be a "needed" enhancement (i.e. multiple of +res, +hp, +regen, +def in each power).

IIRC, the animation from TI can be interrupted, but the root cannot. In other words, while you may be able to continue running if you activate it while you are running, you wouldn't be able to activate another power while you're activating it. The same thing happens with Recon, which means that, regardless of whether you can continue moving or not, you're still incapable of making attacks for the time frame of the power's activation.

Tell that to my DM/Regen Scrapper. 3-4 clicks is more than manageable as long as you ensure that they're on different timers.

Another option would be to make it so that you have a suite of different powers that all share a cooldown. You could take however many different powers within the set, each with different effects, that all force a cooldown of all of the click powers within the suite so that you can only use one at a time. Each power could have a separate enforced cooldown (such that power1 causes all powers to recharge for 15 seconds while power2 causes all powers to recharge for 1 minute). If the devs really wanted to, I'm sure they could even have multiple suites of powers, such that you would be dealing with 2 different "clicks" to cycle as you saw fit (one focused on damage mitigation and another focused on damage recovery, with each power having a different secondary effect, potentially).

Well, I meant Defences in the more general term (stuff that protects you), not in the Defence (not getting hit) vs. Resistance (get hit, but suffer smaller amounts) way. So yeah, they would be "Resist <damage type> Damage" toggles.

Well, firstly, if we're considering the Assault/B&A AT, this set-up won't be doing any tanking, that's a given considering it won't have any taunt auras or purely taunt. Not to mention, it's not one of the key roles you offered up as a possibility for this AT. That being said, yes, the armor sets only have 2-3 core powers that make up the set's 'Armor'. The other stuff is utility (and I count 'Oh Sh*t' buttons as utility they really shouldn't constitute the baseline performance of a set) Examples:

Energy Aura- 1. Kinetic Shield 2. Power Shield 3. Entropy Field. While the passives do help survivability, they are indeed skippable (my EA brute skipped one and there's only 1 available on stalker...and mine skipped it). Yes, Energy Drain has a heal...but considering it didn't always have one and EA characters still managed or that for the most part, the current players that use EA don't rely on ED as a heal anyway...it's basically just utility that helps you keep trucking along.

Electric Armor- 1. Charged Armor 2. Conductive Shield 3. Static Shield. Again, Energize wasn't always around and my Elec Brute managed to survive. Now it's a staple of the armor set, but it is not the core of the set.

Super Reflexes- 1. Focused Fighting 2. Focused Senses 3. Evasion. That is the lion's share of your mitigation. Honestly, if a defender was solo and had just those, there'd probably be nothing they couldn't solo. The rest, while it improves your survivability, is not a necessity for a non-tanking supportive damage dealer.

Regeneration- 1. Integration 2. Reconstruction 3. Dull Pain. On my Elec/Regen stalker that goes crazy AoE scrapping on teams, rarely ever uses the other stuff but it's there...kind of like a security blanket ready to use when the crap hits the skillet....kind of like a neat piece of utility one might say.

Fiery Aura- Prime example. 1. Fire Shield 2. Plasma Shield 3. Healing Flames. The rest aren't so much mitigation as they are utility...but mitigation through defeat is what that utility is.

There are examples of sets that need more than just 3 too(Stone Armor, Willpower, Invincibility) but my point still remains: How much of the armor set would this AT really need considering it doesn't even have to be in melee? You're basically cutting the fat from the armor sets and replacing it with gratuitous improvements without much penalty besides 'well, now you're not the tank'.

Not saying that's bad direction to take but personally, I still don't find it 'fair'. Not fair to Defenders/Corruptors because they don't get the same mez protection but much of their strategic advantage will be shared. And not fair to melees because they give up a lot of force multiplication and range for that armor.


That starts getting into 'What are people actually asking for?'. Do the posters responding now *want* to be arsed with tossing out debuffs to compensate for their anemic survival (bet you the Assault/B&A would be squishier than a Stalker who usually only give up 1 armor power for Hide and any buff auras...the proposed would be giving up 6!)? Are people Aiming for an Iron Man-esque character here? A true agile gun-fu master?

Besides finding out what the players are looking for, I still don't find ranged damage on an armored character as 'unbalanced'. As has already been said, look at the EATs.

But why have ranged on a fully armored character? Well, if there is some correlation to survivability and range, then you'd want to stay at range to survive easier than if you stayed in melee. But I'd probably put some mechanic in there to give such a character more offense if they are at ranged using those attacks and less when not at ranged with them. So, if you want to get more damage with ranged attacks, you need to be at ranged. No need to lower the damage as, once again, Assault Sets already come with less damage (no nova/tier 9s and another power taken out for a utility power) not to mention Tanker lvl melee for an AT with less melee attacks (only 4) wouldn't out dmg a tanker...unless the foes stayed at range.

Why pick this AT over a more offensive scrapper? To tank, of course. The only offensive edge the AT would get is, if it could keep the enemies at ranged it'd do more damage but only until the enemy closes in. Add a tanker to the team? The tank tanks for one tank and vise versa, both covering for the other without literally stepping on eachother's toes.


Don't see Tremor for Earth Assault (although that's an outlier example considering there is no blast set to pull attacks from). Don't see Ball Lightning, Thunderous Blast or Lightning Rod in Elec Assault. Don't see Explosive Blast, Nova or Energy Transfer in Energy Assault. Don't see Fire Ball (!), Rain of Fire, Inferno, Fire Sword Circle or Greater Fire Sword in Fiery Assault. Should I go on? It's not that the powers in the assault sets aren't good, but they aren't the most potent of the parent sets either. I don't believe I even said the Assault sets were 'light' (although I may have), but 'mild' sounds like a perfect descriptor.


Hmmm, that's not what you said here:


So either the support is limited in use, not providing much to compensate for the decreased offense and defense unless teamed. Or it's bolstering base survival, solo and teamed, as compensation for lower natural damage and defense.

Either way, you're looking at the same issue you claim an Assault/Armor AT would have, decreasing the level of performance for balance. IMO, I don't think that'd have to be the case for either but force multiplication is a tricky business...

And this is an argument I would now bring up *against* the idea. Personally, I find it a waste. On a dominatior, there's a reason to use ranged...because you *have* to use control first. That and it's filler until you *can* get close enough to melee. There's no 'allocating time for one role or the other', the role is rolled into one and the sets are tailored to help this.

Sounds powerful. Really, it depends what powers these mixed sets actually get. Most likely, it won't get the utility of Armor sets but I don't think it should get the premiere buffs of support sets either (no Fulcrum Shift, Adrenaline Boost, Melt Armor, etc) as that *would* be overpowered.

I am a pretentious *****! How nice of you to notice (and try to tell me by circumventing the language filter)!

/facepalm

Scrappers don't do any tanking either but they still have the full allotments from their secondaries. I really have to wonder if you've ever actually attempted to play a set with just those powers beyond the first few levels. Only having those powers to rely upon largely a joke, especially when you completely ignore mez powers on one set while taking them on others. Even worse, I'm not even sure if you realize what the powers you're ignoring do. You're said, quite explicitly, that the armor sets are "pretty much just 2-3 powers". If you honestly believe that, then I have to ask you why no intelligent person would ever dream of taking less than 5 of the powers from their armor set, if not 7 or 8? You can argue that a power doesn't do much but they you're completely ignoring the whole "mitigation stacking to provide continually improved returns" aspect of those powers. Seriously, stop trying to make yourself look like less of an idiot for making a grossly uneducated comment and simply fess up to it: you were wrong and had no idea what you were saying.

Well, considering that I have said multiple times that, in order to achieve full damage capability, it would need to be in melee, I'm reasonably sure that I'm not providing them a reason to never be in melee. Secondly, if you honestly believe that the SR passives, Instant Healing and MoG, and Energize are "the fat" of those sets, I'm just going to have to dismiss anything you say from now on outright. You have officially passed into "utter dip-****" territory.

Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about. The lack of tier 9s isn't that stellar (not to mention that it's not even true; Total Focus, Psionic Shockwave, and Seismic Smash are all tier 9 powers) nor is the apparent lack of the powers you mentioned because they've generally been replaced by powers that are just as good. You can scream about not having Fireball for FSC, but it doesn't really mean anything when you've still got Fire Breath and Combustion. Static Discharge is actually better than Ball Lightning. The list goes on. Just because you don't see one or two explicit powers doesn't mean the damage is low. It just means it didn't take those powers. There's a reason the highest damage builds in the game right now are Dominators: the Assault sets are incredibly good.

You're wanting the devs to invent tech to deal variable damage based on the range of the target and now you're going to try and argue that, in CoX, it wouldn't be possible to keep at range? That's a joke, right? We're talking about the same game, right? Where I can just turn on CJ + Hurdle and spend half a second bunny hopping 100' from where my target is? Where a controller can simply lay down an AoE immobilize and permanently keep entire enemy groups where they are? If you honestly, think that "having to keep enemies at range" would do anything other than make players completely ignore their melee attacks, you must be smoking something really expensive to be that detached from reality.

So. Much. Facepalm.

Do you need reading glasses because I think you didn't read that all the way? I said that the support bolsters your existing survivability and that all but roughly 2 powers within the set would be team support. Those statements aren't mutually exclusive.

Or you have some support abilities that are useful solo but you need to be on a team to fully access all of your support capabilities. See how actually reading a comment works! Seriously, I'm getting tired of dealing with people with the reading comprehension skills of a soft headed 5-year-old.