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Yes, the whole reason for the change was so that, when Electric Armor was ported to Tankers/Scrappers, they didn't have 2 powers named 'Conserve Power'.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
The name changed
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| the end cost, recharge, duration and just about everything else changed |
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| what the power does changed |
Ok, since we agree they're unlikely to drop anything from the set, what if they went through the game and ADDED a tenth power to all sets (somewhere in the middle)? They could add a ranged attack to some of the melee sets or something else to fill in gaps. What do you think?
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Snaps fingers, and poof, they are there. They shall be called APP/PPP's.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
They could add a ranged attack to some of the melee sets or something else to fill in gaps. What do you think?
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Ya, those are nice, but they don't quite do the same thing, and they come very late in the character's life.
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Are you seriously suggesting to add a 10th power "somewhere in the middle" to every single set would be an easier solution? |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Ya, those are nice, but they don't quite do the same thing, and they come very late in the character's life.
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You would have to add not only to melee, but to all ATs, otherwise, the mother of all screams would be put on these forums if just melee ATs got this 10th power.
What would would blasters get - a melee attack like their secondaries?
Is the gap for a controller the same for a dominator?
How nice would it be for stalkers to have a ranged attack at lower levels? It will mesh so well with all their melee attacks from hide.
What about sets that have ranged in them (heard of Hurl by any chance?), what do they get?
What would you do for dual blades and the combos?
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I'm not saying every set would have the same kind of power, or at the same point in the set. I'm saying choice is always a good thing. An extra power in each set would mean more choices. Exactly what each set would get would have to be decided. For melee sets lacking a ranged attack, I'd give them a ranged attack of some kind, as appropriate. Blasters might get a different kind of supporting attack, or perhaps some kind of defensive power. I don't know, it's just the seed of an idea here.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
Are you seriously suggesting to add a 10th power "somewhere in the middle" to every single set would be an easier solution?
You would have to add not only to melee, but to all ATs, otherwise, the mother of all screams would be put on these forums if just melee ATs got this 10th power. What would would blasters get - a melee attack like their secondaries? Is the gap for a controller the same for a dominator? How nice would it be for stalkers to have a ranged attack at lower levels? It will mesh so well with all their melee attacks from hide. What about sets that have ranged in them (heard of Hurl by any chance?), what do they get? What would you do for dual blades and the combos? |
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Ultimo_, I just don't understand some days.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I don't know, it's just the seed of an idea here.
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After 6+ years of the current ATs, powerset designs and we have APP/PPPs to pick from, you want to suggest a 10th power, for more choices???
I can't even begin to think what sort of balancing and testing would be required for every single set and AT, just for more choices.
As mentioned above very early on, there are some better suggestions for EM than adding a 10th power.
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Sure why not? More choice is always nice.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Ultimo_, I just don't understand some days.
After 6+ years of the current ATs, powerset designs and we have APP/PPPs to pick from, you want to suggest a 10th power, for more choices??? I can't even begin to think what sort of balancing and testing would be required for every single set and AT, just for more choices. As mentioned above very early on, there are some better suggestions for EM than adding a 10th power. |
As for balancing and so on, I haven't thought about it, this is just an idea that popped up while we were talking. I haven't fleshed anything out.
You're right, though, there are better and more important things to worry about.
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So's free pie. You're right, it'd be nice to have more variety within a set - but at this point, we're more or less cruising okay as it is. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Sure why not? More choice is always nice.
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The APPs coming late in a character's life is a problem, true, but for the most part, it's a problem that 'fixing' runs the risk of creating more problems.
Oh well - mebbe the devs will let us customize pools, and if that happens, a 'blast set' pool power might not be a terrible addition to ask for.
I wonder, how popular is Stun? It seems rather skippable to me, especially for a Tanker, so what if they replaced it with Explosive Blast?
(I know, they won't do it, I'm just hypothesizing)
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Originally Posted by macskull
Energy Melee needs two things:
1. A buff to Whirling Hands 2. A buff to Energy Transfer (and no, adding knockback is not a buff in any way, shape, or form). So here's what you do: 1. Increase the radius of Whirling Hands from 8 feet to 10 feet, increase the damage slightly 2. Give ET the Stun animation, and give Stun the old ET animation. Problem solved! |
thought they nerfed energy transfer. It used to be more powerful before.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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All right, but Stun's not much better in either department. I'd rather have Total Focus and Power Thrust than Total Focus and Stun, total no brainer. I suspect the OP feels the same way.|
Originally Posted by macskull
No, TF is for doing lots of damage, but also happens to stun the target. It's incredibly inefficient as a mez due to its animation and recharge times.
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| To summarize a redname: if a potential power change renders that power unable to slot a type of enhancement it could previously, it probably won't be changed in that manner. For example, you might see Stun have a knockback/knockdown component added, but it wouldn't outright replace the stun component. |
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Pretty sure that happened before I11's release (i.e. was changed during a beta before the power even made it to live).
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Counter-example from 2007: Strength of Will no longer accepts recharge enhancements, because the power was changed to be unaffected by recharge time buffs or enhancements. So it's not a rule without exceptions.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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No, it was a replacement. The primary function of the power changed, and the old primary function was drastically reduced in effectiveness - heck, it didn't even keep the same name. News flash: it's a heal, that happens to have kept an endurance discount because otherwise people wouldn't be able to post this sort of drivel about how "it wasn't replaced, it just had the name, recharge, endurance cost, and every single specific effect that it does changed*! That's not a replacement!"|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Conserve Power was a power that gave you +end redux. Energize is a power that gives you +end redux and stuff.
Added to, not replaced. And calling it a replacement gives fodder to the people who think Energy Transfer might get replaced with Nova, or whatever piece of nonsense they want to court today. |
A "non-replacement" would be like the Dominator damage scale changes on attacks in their secondaries (how many Energy Blast users would like Energy Assault's Power Push?). A good clue as to whether or not a power was replaced? If you have to specifically look for similarities because even the name changed, it probably was. Even if there are similarities.
And in any case, the post was meant sarcastically, as in: "Yes, they just changed one power in how many years? Surely they must concede and do whatever replacements we want, now!"
* - by this, I mean nothing about the power went untouched: even the only part retained other than the animation - the endurance discount - was cut in half
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Yes. Strength of Will hasn't been able to lower its recharge since before it went live. |
Originally Posted by macskull
Pretty sure that happened before I11's release (i.e. was changed during a beta before the power even made it to live).
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And the Energize thing is being way discussed to death. The power was changed much more than the devs usually do for a power, because the set needed it. You can say it's a new power or was added to, but it was still changed more than powers usually are when they're tweaked.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
A similar thing happened with Combat Training: Offensive for VEATs - the power originally gave a tohit buff during closed beta but because it was deemed too powerful it was changed to its current accuracy buff. Basically, it's possible to greatly change a power's effects (or even completely replace a power) while the powerset is still in testing, but once that powerset goes live the odds of that sort of thing happening is pretty slim. Another example is the epic/patron changes in I13 - originally the new powers were going to replace existing ones but that caused a stink so they were simply added as a fifth power.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
My personal take on the "cottage rule" is that powers won't change so much that can no longer be used for their original purpose. That way, people who did like the old version, no matter how few they are, don't lose a power they liked. So while Energize has changed a lot from CP, it does still provide a nice decrease in End costs.
Actually, IMO the closest we've come to breaking this rule since the Grav changes is with the alterations to Domination, where it flat out lost the damage boost. Yes, doms were compensated with increased damage all the time (and are better for it), but the actual functionality of the power changed more than, say, Energize.
I think that a buff to WH would be acceptable, but I think I'd rather see a different change. I would like to see total focus and stun be adjusted toward one another to become more similar. TF would become quicker to activate than currently, but would do less damage than it does now, while stun would do more damage than it does now, but be a little slower to activate than it is now. TF would still do notably more damage than stun.
This might bring a little speed back into the set.
Bringing back the feel of quickness to EM would be the most pleasing change I'd like to see.
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The Dominator changes weren't so much the change to the Domination power itself (which, if you had large amounts of global recharge, was actually a nerf) as they were the rebalancing of entire powersets. Domination might have been the only power to lose an aspect, but there were a great deal of changes to individual powers (PSW and the entire Psi Assault set come to mind).
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Originally Posted by PhroX
Actually, IMO the closest we've come to breaking this rule since the Grav changes is with the alterations to Domination, where it flat out lost the damage boost. Yes, doms were compensated with increased damage all the time (and are better for it), but the actual functionality of the power changed more than, say, Energize.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I am behind that 100%. We should blow this thread up to 1k posts so Castle has no choice but to buff Energy Melee.
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Originally Posted by macskull
Energy Melee needs two things:
1. A buff to Whirling Hands 2. A buff to Energy Transfer (and no, adding knockback is not a buff in any way, shape, or form). So here's what you do: 1. Increase the radius of Whirling Hands from 8 feet to 10 feet, increase the damage slightly 2. Give ET the Stun animation, and give Stun the old ET animation. Problem solved! |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Less Filling!
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True, but my point was more that Domination no longer boosting damage is probably the closest we've come to breaking the "cottage rule" in the sense of a power no longer doing what it did before. While the other changes might well have had more effect, the powers still do the same things as before, they just do them by a different amount (PSW still damages stuns and slows the recharge of nearby foes for example).
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Originally Posted by macskull
The Dominator changes weren't so much the change to the Domination power itself (which, if you had large amounts of global recharge, was actually a nerf) as they were the rebalancing of entire powersets. Domination might have been the only power to lose an aspect, but there were a great deal of changes to individual powers (PSW and the entire Psi Assault set come to mind).
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I find this is the main problem with my name-sake, who's currently (still) a stalker at 35. I have like, what now, 6, 7 attacks? including vets rewards and I end up standing there... standing there... ok, there's one back now... |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Barrage is still Tier 1, but it recharges rather slowly. All the attacks do, it seems. There were many times I found myself standing around with no attacks because they were all recharging. Not unusual on Mace, I suppose. I was just surprised EM was doing it too.
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I know they upped the recharge times for a reason and all, but I think they made bad choices and made it the least fun to play of any I've tried. And I like my stalker! ;_;
When people suggest changes to powersets, one absolutely critical thing they need to remember is that replacing powers wholesale just won't happen. A power might have more effects added to it to make it useful (Frozen Aura, or Energize) or have some of its attributes changed to make it more desirable (adding certain debuff protections in the Invuln passives or Temperature Protection, for example, or greatly increasing the damage scale of Clobber to turn it primarily into an attack rather than a mez), but it won't generally be outright replaced by another power. To summarize a redname: if a potential power change renders that power unable to slot a type of enhancement it could previously, it probably won't be changed in that manner. For example, you might see Stun have a knockback/knockdown component added, but it wouldn't outright replace the stun component.
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."