Is this a mistake on Blizzard?
By
3dent,
Posted on: 2010-07-14 16:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
No that is correct, even if not very sensible.
To go into more detail it both is and isn't a mistake.
Blizzard is a power that summons a pseudo pet, this means that since the values are associated with the pet rather than the power changing them for different ATs is a lot more difficult than for a regular power (essentially the devs have to create a new version of the pet and make a new version of the power to summon it). As such the devs tend not to bother doing so except in cases where the power is truly broken.
So the values should be different but it isn't an oversight on the devs part, more a case of being annoying to fix and not high enough priority to do so anyway.
In the case of Blizzard the damage is set by the oriignal Blaster version so Blasters are set and Defenders/Corruptors get bonus damage (although Corruptors do not get Scourge).
Traps also serves as a good example. Time Bomb and Trip Mine in Corruptor and Mastermind Traps deal Blaster level damage since they were copied directly from Devices. However when Defenders got Traps the devs made new pseudo pets for all of the powers (since Traps Defenders would have sucked otherwise) including Time Bomb and Trip Mine so those powers do a LOT less damage for Defenders than Corruptors even though the base damage of the two ATs is only 15% different.
Fulcrum Shift is another example. For a long time all ATs used the Defender values however the devs did eventually fix this (presumably as a way of reigning in all of the Fire/Kins at least a little bit).
I'm certain I've gotten scourge on one of the rain powers on my ice corruptor. Did they make a separate pet for the lower power (ice storm?) or am I just remembering incorrectly?
Going to go experiment with this now probably 
If in doubt, check Red Tomax. Corruptors did indeed get their own version of Ice Storm.
Corruptors:
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...uptor_IceStorm
Blasters, Defenders, Tankers and War Witch:
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...=Pets_IceStorm
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Corruptors can Scourge with Blizzard just fine - there actually is a separate pet for them that has Scourge, and the damage per tick wasn't changed. The same thing happened with Rain of Fire and Ice Storm, and Rain of Fire even gets extra Scourge damage (the Scourge ticks are twice the damage of the base ticks, so it does triple damage while Scourging).|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
In the case of Blizzard the damage is set by the oriignal Blaster version so Blasters are set and Defenders/Corruptors get bonus damage (although Corruptors do not get Scourge).
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Controllers also get Containment on their Ice Storm, since it was also set up with the AT inherent in mind.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Ah, yes, the ever so popular Fire/Dark Corr :]
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
The same thing happened with Rain of Fire and Ice Storm, and Rain of Fire even gets extra Scourge damage (the Scourge ticks are twice the damage of the base ticks, so it does triple damage while Scourging).
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In that case WTH do they get Blaster level damage with it? I don't mind when the devs don't update the pets by why on earth would they update it incorrectly?
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Corruptors can Scourge with Blizzard just fine - there actually is a separate pet for them that has Scourge, and the damage per tick wasn't changed. The same thing happened with Rain of Fire and Ice Storm, and Rain of Fire even gets extra Scourge damage (the Scourge ticks are twice the damage of the base ticks, so it does triple damage while Scourging).
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Well, im going to do what I do best, and point out the Obvious for this question.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
In that case WTH do they get Blaster level damage with it? I don't mind when the devs don't update the pets by why on earth would they update it incorrectly?
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Blasters get Aim+BU, unless they went with Devices, then they just get Aim.Also dont forget if you fire off a couple attacks on a Blaster you get a damage bonus anyhow, so that adds even more.
However, if you go on the basis that most take a Secondary that provides a BU on there blaster builds.The answer is simple.Blasters get 500 Damage base for Blizzard with a Additional 165% Damage bonus from Dual Build ups.Making it over 1300 before 3 SOs are added for a additional 500 points making it around 1800.
Corruptors get Scourge.Double Damage, as well as Aim that grants 45%ish damage boost.Its a little bit more difficult to gauge in common math the formula for a Corruptor, but it wont do as much as a Blaster will with Blizzard.Not to mention any additional damage from there Secondary that drops Damage Resistance or allows a Self buff.
Finally, the Defender.They get the standard 500 from the base Damage, then 50% from there Aim.They however dont get a Build Up, or a Scourge.There additional Damage is based on there Primary, is it grants a buff or Debuff.They get the weakest Increase from all the Blizzard carrying Plague dogs of CoX, but its still enough to raise an eyebrow when you see it go off.
A Blaster should pretty much destroy anything it hits with a Ice Storm and Blizzard Combo.Then followed by a properly built Corr, then a Defender set up to Obliterate anything in its path with the before mentioned Combo its self.
What I wrote made sense, but if it didnt to you, then my apologize.
In Lamens Terms, They left the damage base the same for Blizzard due to the rather sizable diffrence in additional Damage the ATs that have them possess.
Simple and you dont need Mid's to tell you this.
Kin Defender + Fulcrum Shift = way more than a Blaster.
Kin Corruptor + Fulcrum Shift + Scourage = OMG! Even more than a Blaster!
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Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Well, im going to do what I do best, and point out the Obvious for this question.
Blasters get Aim+BU, unless they went with Devices, then they just get Aim.Also dont forget if you fire off a couple attacks on a Blaster you get a damage bonus anyhow, so that adds even more. However, if you go on the basis that most take a Secondary that provides a BU on there blaster builds.The answer is simple.Blasters get 500 Damage base for Blizzard with a Additional 165% Damage bonus from Dual Build ups.Making it over 1300 before 3 SOs are added for a additional 500 points making it around 1800. Corruptors get Scourge.Double Damage, as well as Aim that grants 45%ish damage boost.Its a little bit more difficult to gauge in common math the formula for a Corruptor, but it wont do as much as a Blaster will with Blizzard.Not to mention any additional damage from there Secondary that drops Damage Resistance or allows a Self buff. Finally, the Defender.They get the standard 500 from the base Damage, then 50% from there Aim.They however dont get a Build Up, or a Scourge.There additional Damage is based on there Primary, is it grants a buff or Debuff.They get the weakest Increase from all the Blizzard carrying Plague dogs of CoX, but its still enough to raise an eyebrow when you see it go off. A Blaster should pretty much destroy anything it hits with a Ice Storm and Blizzard Combo.Then followed by a properly built Corr, then a Defender set up to Obliterate anything in its path with the before mentioned Combo its self. What I wrote made sense, but if it didnt to you, then my apologize. In Lamens Terms, They left the damage base the same for Blizzard due to the rather sizable diffrence in additional Damage the ATs that have them possess. Simple and you dont need Mid's to tell you this. |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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Defenders CAN get PBU from their epic, and it's 6 min recharge time doesn't matter if we're talking nukes. |
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Finally, the Defender.They get the standard 500 from the base Damage, then 50% from there Aim.They however dont get a Build Up, or a Scourge.There additional Damage is based on there Primary, is it grants a buff or Debuff.They get the weakest Increase from all the Blizzard carrying Plague dogs of CoX, but its still enough to raise an eyebrow when you see it go off.
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So Defenders get +130% from Aim+PBU, 100% from enhances, and (if we really-really want a nuke Defender) +20% from Assault. Less than a Blaster, but not much. And uf there's anything +Dam or -Res in the primary...
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Good points, and I agree.Theres just 1 Thing you missed though.....not everyone takes Kinetics.|
Originally Posted by newchemicals
Kin Defender + Fulcrum Shift = way more than a Blaster.
Kin Corruptor + Fulcrum Shift + Scourage = OMG! Even more than a Blaster! |
Alos, the 2nd issue with your points on Kinetics.Is that theres no Garantee your going to get that Fulcrum Shift off before Dying.Unless of coarse your in a team setting with a Tanker.Which doesnt always happen.
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Actually I believe blizzard uses a pet damage modifier rather than the AT's base damage modifier, which is why you see a sizable difference in damage numbers among various other nukes (ones that don't use pet damage modifier i.e. inferno, thunderous blast etc.) when you compare them across the 3 AT's (blasters, defenders, corrs). |
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Well, im going to do what I do best, and point out the Obvious for this question.
Blasters get Aim+BU, unless they went with Devices, then they just get Aim.Also dont forget if you fire off a couple attacks on a Blaster you get a damage bonus anyhow, so that adds even more. However, if you go on the basis that most take a Secondary that provides a BU on there blaster builds.The answer is simple.Blasters get 500 Damage base for Blizzard with a Additional 165% Damage bonus from Dual Build ups.Making it over 1300 before 3 SOs are added for a additional 500 points making it around 1800. Corruptors get Scourge.Double Damage, as well as Aim that grants 45%ish damage boost.Its a little bit more difficult to gauge in common math the formula for a Corruptor, but it wont do as much as a Blaster will with Blizzard.Not to mention any additional damage from there Secondary that drops Damage Resistance or allows a Self buff. Finally, the Defender.They get the standard 500 from the base Damage, then 50% from there Aim.They however dont get a Build Up, or a Scourge.There additional Damage is based on there Primary, is it grants a buff or Debuff.They get the weakest Increase from all the Blizzard carrying Plague dogs of CoX, but its still enough to raise an eyebrow when you see it go off. A Blaster should pretty much destroy anything it hits with a Ice Storm and Blizzard Combo.Then followed by a properly built Corr, then a Defender set up to Obliterate anything in its path with the before mentioned Combo its self. What I wrote made sense, but if it didnt to you, then my apologize. In Lamens Terms, They left the damage base the same for Blizzard due to the rather sizable diffrence in additional Damage the ATs that have them possess. Simple and you dont need Mid's to tell you this. |
So when Ice blast was proliferated, of course the ST blast numbers were adjusted based on that AT's base damage but powers like blizzard and ice storm that used this other modifier were left unchanged which is strange, considering powers like Lightning Rod and Shield Charge were adjusted as per AT. Despite how those powers work much like blizzard in that when cast, they spawn a pseudo pet that has its own modifier.
So it would appear that blizzard was left unintentionally unbalanced.
Come to think of it, doesn't ROA use a different damage modifier? And those damage numbers vary from blaster to def to corr. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
If I'm not mistaking, don't the Rain powers also use the Blaster's damage cap?
Which is the same as a Corruptor's, but lets a Kin/ Defender take advantage of an additional +100% damage. (Which is quite handily reached on larger teams)
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It's not like the game is chock-full of /Ice defenders, isn't it? To use nuke as a main damage-dealing power you need an expensive build, your choice of primaries is limited to ones you can use without toggles, and exemped to 35 or below you're just another guy with a perma-Hasten build. Ok, you also have got a powerful rain and can permahold a single boss.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
In that case WTH do they get Blaster level damage with it? I don't mind when the devs don't update the pets by why on earth would they update it incorrectly?
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As a power used to prevent those "OMG, they gonna wipe us" situations Blizzard is rather in line with, say, Fallout. Yes, it deals twice the damage and can be used anytime, but you get the nuke-crash to deal with.
That said I'm levelling an /Ice right now and yes, it's partly for the nuke.
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All pseudo-pets have the same damage cap, and my understanding is that it would be a substantial difficulty for the devs to change this. They may go back and nerf non-Blaster versions of the Rain powers to support the AT specific damage scales for Defenders and Corrupters, but I seriously doubt they'll ever even try to alter the damage cap. It's one of those little things that's probably not ever going to change until somebody invents a time machine and goes back to when it was actually practical to change the game at such a low level.
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Originally Posted by Primantiss
If I'm not mistaking, don't the Rain powers also use the Blaster's damage cap?
Which is the same as a Corruptor's, but lets a Kin/ Defender take advantage of an additional +100% damage. (Which is quite handily reached on larger teams) |
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Well yes, the different ATs have different base damages and damage bonuses that is clear. Corruptors are not supposed to deal Blaster level BASE damage (BU and Aim are irrelevant for this). Now obviously in some cases they opt to leave the pseudo-pet the same for ease of porting but in this case they made a new version of the pet and did not apply the modifiers. So the question becomes why did they not apply the damage modifiers to Blizzard? In fact from looking through the powers I'm going to expand this and say why did they not apply this to ANY of the Corruptor blast powers with pseudo pets? They made new versions with Scourge but they all seem to deal blaster level damage.
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Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
In Lamens Terms, They left the damage base the same for Blizzard due to the rather sizable diffrence in additional Damage the ATs that have them possess.
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Backwards, actually - all pets (and pseudopets like Blizzard count) have the +300% (400% total) damage cap rather than the +400% cap for Blasters and Corruptors. It's also why Lightning Rod and Shield Charge don't work as well as they should for Brutes.|
Originally Posted by Primantiss
If I'm not mistaking, don't the Rain powers also use the Blaster's damage cap?
Which is the same as a Corruptor's, but lets a Kin/ Defender take advantage of an additional +100% damage. (Which is quite handily reached on larger teams) |
As for why the base damage is the same? Well, in general the pet powers use the same base damage scale for the same power because that's how the powers are set up for each AT as well - with a few deliberate exceptions, a power is a power is a power, affected only be AT modifiers (ie, Smite is Smite is Smite is Smite, whether it's a Scrapper, Brute, Tanker, or Stalker using it). Since pets all have the same melee damage modifier (-55.61, or "1.0"), the damage works out the same. An extra if check is added for Scourge, Containment, or other criticals, but they really don't have to play with the numbers as much as copy and paste them.
Are there some exceptions? Sure! Rain of Arrows, for example, was created with a seperate pet for Blasters and Defenders, and the scale of the damage was changed to account for AT modifiers. When it was ported to Corruptors, the scale they used was way off and the Corruptor version doesn't account for their modifier correctly, doing less than 1 point more damage per tick than the Defender version.
Shield Charge was originally set up using the same pet all the time as well - as was Stalker Lightning Rod - and those weren't changed until after Electric Melee was ported heroside, where two new pseudopets were created to account for the Tanker and Scrapper modifiers. Apparently, from a post from Castle in another thread, the changes that took place in accounting for the mods wasn't what he expected, so it's due to get nerfed "soon".
Due to the issues they've had with trying to make the powers fit AT mods, I think I'd just as soon let them take the lazy way with it and leave the damage alone at this point.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Possible Nerf of everyones Elec/SD Scrappers?.....I would pay to see that...|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Backwards, actually - all pets (and pseudopets like Blizzard count) have the +300% (400% total) damage cap rather than the +400% cap for Blasters and Corruptors. It's also why Lightning Rod and Shield Charge don't work as well as they should for Brutes.
As for why the base damage is the same? Well, in general the pet powers use the same base damage scale for the same power because that's how the powers are set up for each AT as well - with a few deliberate exceptions, a power is a power is a power, affected only be AT modifiers (ie, Smite is Smite is Smite is Smite, whether it's a Scrapper, Brute, Tanker, or Stalker using it). Since pets all have the same melee damage modifier (-55.61, or "1.0"), the damage works out the same. An extra if check is added for Scourge, Containment, or other criticals, but they really don't have to play with the numbers as much as copy and paste them. Are there some exceptions? Sure! Rain of Arrows, for example, was created with a seperate pet for Blasters and Defenders, and the scale of the damage was changed to account for AT modifiers. When it was ported to Corruptors, the scale they used was way off and the Corruptor version doesn't account for their modifier correctly, doing less than 1 point more damage per tick than the Defender version. Shield Charge was originally set up using the same pet all the time as well - as was Stalker Lightning Rod - and those weren't changed until after Electric Melee was ported heroside, where two new pseudopets were created to account for the Tanker and Scrapper modifiers. Apparently, from a post from Castle in another thread, the changes that took place in accounting for the mods wasn't what he expected, so it's due to get nerfed "soon". Due to the issues they've had with trying to make the powers fit AT mods, I think I'd just as soon let them take the lazy way with it and leave the damage alone at this point. |
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Or you can just be a kinetics defender. I've got a build that's looking like it'll be less than 50 million all told (most of the build is less than 10 million). Hasten isn't quite perma (there's a three-second gap if I triple-stack Siphon Speed). Blizzard is up every 110 seconds or so, and can easily be fulcrum-shifted to the damage cap. Better still, since it's damage over time, the crash can be countered simply by popping a blue inspiration and hitting the nearest boss with Transference.
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Originally Posted by 3dent
It's not like the game is chock-full of /Ice defenders, isn't it? To use nuke as a main damage-dealing power you need an expensive build, your choice of primaries is limited to ones you can use without toggles, and exemped to 35 or below you're just another guy with a perma-Hasten build.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Backwards, actually - all pets (and pseudopets like Blizzard count) have the +300% (400% total) damage cap rather than the +400% cap for Blasters and Corruptors. It's also why Lightning Rod and Shield Charge don't work as well as they should for Brutes.
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Ahh I see, guess I had it backwards then XD
Thanks for clearing that up!
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Wait... Siphon could be stacked with itself? |
Originally Posted by Katie V
Or you can just be a kinetics defender. I've got a build that's looking like it'll be less than 50 million all told (most of the build is less than 10 million). Hasten isn't quite perma (there's a three-second gap if I triple-stack Siphon Speed). Blizzard is up every 110 seconds or so, and can easily be fulcrum-shifted to the damage cap. Better still, since it's damage over time, the crash can be countered simply by popping a blue inspiration and hitting the nearest boss with Transference.
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(And yes, I never played a kin to a level where I could notice) Anyway, my other point (that you'll lose PBU at just lvl 35 and nuke itself at lvl 32, unlike blasters) still stands.
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Stacks quite nicely, to the point that it rivals Hasten for recharge. It also makes a decent early travel power.
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Originally Posted by 3dent
Wait... Siphon could be stacked with itself?
(And yes, I never played a kin to a level where I could notice) |
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Except, of course, for the constant clicking, being useless if you're in an area without enemies, and opening yourself up to a potshot from at least your target. Nah, give me a real travel power any day.
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Originally Posted by Katie V
Stacks quite nicely, to the point that it rivals Hasten for recharge. It also makes a decent early travel power.
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On the detailed info screen.
Blaster Blizzard shows 500.49 damage at level 50
Defender Blizzard shows 500.49 damage at level 50
Corruptor Blizzard shows 500.49 damage at level 50
All have 6m recharge. So are blasters getting shorted here or is there a "copy and paste" mistake on the power info screen?
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD