-def

So I was thinking. With all the number crunching that's happened on the boards, has anyone ever looked into the utility of -DEF outside of PvP?

I decided to roll a PB for fun today and I was thinking about whether there was any meaningful way to get utility out of -DEF. To me, utility usually means one of three things (1) able to fight something that was not possible to fight, (2) allows me to not have to take a power, (3) saves me slots.

-DEF doesn't seem to perform well enough for any of these things. It doesn't allow me to avoid slotting ACC. There's no power that I don't have to take because I'm getting -DEF, and the bonus to hit outside the odd Ritki Probe (which usually die on the second hit anyway) seems statistically non-existent.

From what I can tell in normal circumstances it neither promotes my survivability nor does it increase my DPS.

If I have a base 75% and a single SO's worth of ACC I'm set for almost all combat situations and all powers (outside a few AoE's that have a lower base accuracy). But in those rare high-def situations like a Ritki Probe, it neither gives much bonus, nor does it last very long,... but more importantly you have to hit it the first time to get the bonus.

Storm Shamans (and other things that give -ACC) will still suck, etc. It's not enough to compensate for this.

No one is running around making -DEF super teams, (like -RES or Slow or -ACC allow). This is the main reason that I've never made a Rad/Rad Defender. I just didn't get the -DEF.

Someone please enlighten me with some data. I'd particularly like to know if slotting for -DEF helps (outside of PvP).

Not really a PvPer, if you can tell.

I'm still going to enjoy playing my PB, but I suspect I'll go the entire run to 50, never really even noticing that there's -DEF. Right now I'm ignoring it. Please tell me I'm an idiot and why.

(+1 to WS on this, though most Warshades don't spend much time in human form to enjoy the significant -Recharge -SPD.)

If nothing else, it will help out with your acc in the lower levels. On top of that, it helps out a bit on higher level mobs (+3, +4) since they require more than just the one SO of acc to get to 95%. Putting that 2nd slot of acc in proton scatter, for example, will make it hit, and its debuff will allow your next few attacks to hit easier with only the one SO in them. I still reccamend not using just SOs in the first place, but that is one tactic I used while leveling my PB.

Edit: Recalculated the -def needed against a +2 to take the Purple Patch into account.

With a single even-level accuracy SO, your final to-hit chances drop below 95% (to 86.7%) the second you start fighting +1s or higher. So against +1s, you're hitting 9.5% more often against anything you've recently hit with -def. Against +2s (74.7% chance to hit with one accuracy SO) it's 27.1% more often once you get them back to a 95% chance, which only takes about 16.9% -def (with one accuracy SO.)

Well first off it's important to realize the difference between -def and accuracy in the attack mechanics. Accuracy acts as a multiplier after defense and to hit buffs/debuffs are applied. As such -def needs to be looked at as a replacement for to hit not for accuracy.

With that being said the main benefit of -def is when you're fighting higher con enemies. You suffer a to hit penalty against them and -def helps to counter that. The downside is against higher con enemies -def has reduced effect due to the purple patch. Against +1s and +2s this isn't enough to make a big difference but against +3s and +4s you need either quite a bit of -def or to back it up with some to hit bonuses.

Against even con enemies -def only really matters at low levels when your accuracy slotting sucks.

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Purple_Patch

Strange. My anecdotal brain just can't comprehend that. One SO in your standard single-attack power and I feel like I never miss, but I might be missing 9% more often and just not noticing. This reminds me of the minor ACC bonus for weapons I never really appreciated. Perhaps even after your numbers I still don't properly appreciate it.

Gleaming Bolt with it's really short attack time and low power, would seem to be the one to slot for -DEF and just slip it in between other attacks in the chain, but it's buff is an ultra-short 3 seconds. Pretty much it just buffs for the next attack. But slotting it for ACC and -DEF and using liberally might help in higher CON situations.

I suppose I could slot it for -DEF run through 10 mobs at different cons and see what HeroStats tells me. Then do the whole thing again with DMG in the place of the -DEF. If I kill faster with the -DEF then I think I'll be convinced.

I suppose there's no way to intuitively know whether I'm streaking 9 attacks or 19. You really wouldn't notice, but technically that's still a boost to DPS.

-Def on the PB's attacks isn't that big of a deal. Those who get a lot out of -Def are the ones with huge-def debuffs that have high accuracy or auto-hit, such as a Rad/ Defender.

I think your analysis is spot on, Bowler.

During normal PvE play, you're hitting over 90% of the time anyway, so -DEF has little effect.

Against really hard targets like a Paragon Protector in god-mode, the -DEF from most powers (eg Radiation Blast, PeaceBringer attacks) isn't enough to make a difference and you can get stuck in the catch-22 where you need ot hit to apply the -DEF.

Autohit powers with good numbers like Radiation Infection are different, they do help against hard targets.

The two main advantages I see:

1) You can slot the Achilles Heel proc for -Res in your attacks.

2) It allows temporary powers to hit more reliably. Thats a big bonus for a solo-ing Controller, Defender or Tank with the Sands of Mu 12 month vet power.

Also helps powers with an absurdly low accuracy modifier to begin with, like most of the troller AoE holds..

It's also kinda handy against high defense enemies, like Rikti Drones. Or Rikti Drones buffed by Rikti Guardians (how I hate thee, buffed Drones).

-Defense is also nice for a team with lower members supersidekicked: (especially if they're lowbies) they may or may not not have good enhancements yet, and enemies will con higher to them than to you. When you hit them an enemy with -defense, you probably will be giving a better debuff than the lower team member, so they receive a great chance of hitting.

It's also nice to have when you have a slow-recharging, heavy hitting or high-utility power that you think really must hit. The random numbers are fickle, and can roll a miss at the worst of times. As such, putting some -defense does just that little bit more to rig the dice.

Like people mentioned above the Procs you are able to place in -def are really nice and cheap. I want to slot Achilles' Heel (chance for -resist) and Fury of the Gladiator (chance for -resist) on my PB's Solar Flare and use it in mobs. The damage procs is where I get most of my damage on my PB for a PvE build.

Earth Controllers have -Defense in most of their primary powers, including a large 25% -Defense in Quicksand. An Earth Controller on the team allows the team to easily handle higher level content, knowing that their attacks will hit almost all the time. Plus that -Defense helps to make sure that many of the control powers (some of which cannot be slotted for accuracy) will hit the majority of the foes.

And a regular team that includes an Earth Controller can slot less for accuracy with confidence that they don't need any more than minimal accuracy. This frees up slots for other uses.

And now we can craft a slew of temporary powers. What's the base accuracy on Envenomed dagger? With how many charges it has and how long the -regen debuff last, you don't want that power to miss in a critical fight.

Very good point, Leo.

Its not just Sands of Mu any more that benefits, its the Grenades (Stun and Damage), Plasmatic Taser and Envenommed Dagger as well. -Def has become more useful these days because of this.