What would Super Stength be like if...
By
CBeet,
Posted on: 2010-07-11 21:33 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Most people would probably argue or go as far to say that Super Strength as a powerset was created with one single power in mind; Rage. For the most part, Super Strength without Rage would be an underperforming set. It is strictly smashing damage, smashing damage is a highly resisted damage type. Furthermore, it has the lowest damage Tier 1 and in most cases an underperforming Tier 2. The powers that are really the gem of the powerset are Knockout Blow and Footstomp. Knockout Blow is a solid single target attack with hold+KU and is on par with such attacks as Seismic Smash and Total Focus. Footstomp is also a reliable large AoE KD power with above average damage.
Now, Super Strength's "strength" is Rage. The first 3 Tiers that prior to Rage were strictly underperforming compared to other sets, but are now going to be beyond those other sets when they are outside of their own Build Up powers. Now granted, a number of these powersets will be able to get to/beyond Super Strength's Rage numbers when they use their own BU, but the trade off is Rage provides a consistent amount of +Damage (outside of the crash period) that allows one to do more damage then before. If Rage were changed to a BU, then you're taking a powerset that has lower numbers and giving them a power that will buff for a shorter period of time and pretty near impossible to keep the buff perma, where Rage is at, would cause the set to have a real drop off from where it is. However, it is still a solid build in regards to the strength of Knockout Blow (and how early it is in the powerset) and Footstomp. Between the two, with a BU, you would have powers that out perform other sets, but in the cases of the 1st 3 (Which would get a lot of use out of BU) would def cause a drop off in overall damage; but to say its less then say /ice melee, is hard to say for sure.
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Yes. Quite explicitly, yes.|
Originally Posted by Demon Keeper
Would the set be underpowered if it lost Rage?
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Assuming SO grade slotting, Rage provides a 41% increase in total damage 91.7% of the time and a 100% reduction in total damage 8.3% of the time. This means that, all things averaged, Rage provides a ~30% increase in total damage over time (ignoring the fact that it also provides 20% +tohit for that entire time, freeing up a lot of acc slotting, which makes it even better).
Let's assume a nice, top end attack string (235% +rech total, damage values for Tankers) of KO>Hay>Punch>Jab>Hay>Punch, which manages roughly 106.5 DPS (423.7 * (1.95 + .8) * .917 / 10.032). Compare this to DM's MG>Smite>Siphon>Smite attack string which manages 107.9 DPS (372.4 * 1.95 / 6.732). This is assuming only a single stack of Rage (which is highly unlikely, considering that, with that much recharge, it's more than possible to get to the 2 stacks wherein Tankers start seeing diminishing returns). It's also using incredibly high recharge, which further benefits Super Strength because of the heavy weighting of KO Blow for DPS contribution compared to the powers that it is otherwise rendering redundant. Remove the effects of Rage and that number gets pulled down to 82.4 DPS.
(If you're curious about what that attack string would look like with the 1.675 stacks that it would be managing, the DPS would be ~119.5 (423.7 * (1.95 + 0.8 * 1.675) * (1 - (1.675 / 12)) / 10.032); on that same note, DM would be able to manage roughly 133.2 DPS (372.4 * (1.95 + (.8 * 30 / 38.32)) * (1- (2.508/38.32)) / 6.732) with 5 targets feeding Soul Drain and Soul Drain being using immediately)
Super Strength is a horribly designed set that is more than half full of completely useless powers that is bolstered to "normalcy" (though it's substantially stronger than "average" considering its ability to generate impressive ST and AoE DPS along with excellent utility) by a small suite of exceptionally powerful powers. Rage is the strongest of those powerful powers and the only reason that Super Strength performs in the least. Replacing it with a straight port of BU would completely kill the set.
I would actually like rage to become a toggle power.
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Not going to happen.
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Originally Posted by Star_Seer
I would actually like rage to become a toggle power.
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Rage doesnt make footstomp worth it, it makes the other powers worth it (KO blow doesnt need rage either.) Footstomp alone, would still reign as king of AoE for melee toons. Its recharge and range alone make it the king. So would the set underperform from an AoE standpoint? No, but the rest of your attacks will feel like pillow punches.
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Was liking what you said until this load of crap...
| Rage is the strongest of those powerful powers and the only reason that Super Strength performs in the least. |
If rage were changed to bu then SS would be a lot like stone melee, except no where near as good.
I'm not sure I see it being quite so bad as some of the others suggest (Try
some ouros missions below the level of Rage - My brute does fine on them).
On my toons that have BU, I can usually get the recharch high enough to be
ready for every fight (and usually more than once during a fight), so "gimped"
isn't a word I'd use if that change occurred (hypothetically).
Having said that though, I DO agree that Rage is really the cornerstone on which
SS is designed, and losing it would remove a lot of the "fun" of SS for sure.
The difference to me would be the difference between "Effective" vs "OMG this Rocks" 
Who wouldn't prefer the latter?
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I honestly don't think Super Strength was designed to deal weaker damage with Rage in mind. In fact, I believe the devs once commented that the gave Super Strength really high damage and long recharge times, and most players complained that it felt "too slow". They expected blows with fists to be much faster, rather than some hulking brute throwing a Megaton Punch every few minutes.
However, in retrospect, the fast recharge times made for low damage, which is countered by Rage. So it was a coincidence. That's why it hasn't gotten the tweaks like other fast sets like Claws have gotten. And in fact the changes have been primarly to Rage itself.
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Except that it's largely true. Without Rage to bolster Footstomp, you're not going to be getting stellar performance from it. KO Blow's biggest problem is that, even though it's a massively powerful attack, it has a cripplingly long recharge time (thanks to the multiple secondary effects attached to it). Even if KO Blow were as strong as Seismic Smash (which is a better attack from a damage perspective thanks to a lower animation time), the set would still suffer from having only a single really good attack (Haymaker is actually on par with most basic ST attacks, unlike previously mentioned). Look at the set without Rage and then look at the set as it is now and you'll honestly see that Rage is the only thing keeping the set performing: FS and KOBlow are nice (very nice, in fact), but they're not doing nearly as much as Rage is.
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Originally Posted by RabidBrian
Was liking what you said until this load of crap...
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You're talking about a Brute, which already suffers from +dam dilution. For a Brute, single stacked Rage only accounts for a 12% increase in your total damage (((1.95 + .8 + 1.6) * .917) / (1.95 + 1.6)) with 60% Fury. On any other AT, the difference would be substantially higher. It's also for this reason that SS (and Shield Defense and Claws and any other set that brings large amounts of native +dam) isn't nearly as awesome for Brutes as it is for every other AT.
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Originally Posted by FourSpeed
I'm not sure I see it being quite so bad as some of the others suggest (Try some ouros missions below the level of Rage - My brute does fine on them).
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I've actually been working on a tweak to SS that would require making Rage into a toggle power (and a free one to boot). Rather than having Rage operate via +dam, I would have it work much like Swap Ammo, applying a global change to all SS attacks (and all of the other powers except for Taunt as well) has them deal another portion of damage (so that SS actually gains full benefits from any source of +dam) but counters this benefit by applying an irresistible -end effect for the base cost of that damage (i.e. the loss of end would be the exact same as you would experience if you were dealing that damage through another attack without any end redux in it). Along with this, I would reduce the +tohit by a fair deal, likely down to ~5% base (because I also plan suggesting the toggle variant have no endurance cost). Rage would still increase damage by a substantial degree and allow SS to fully benefit from +dam sources. By that same token, I would give the toggle a 30 second recharge time (so that you can't just bounce it on and off to deal just the right amount of damage).|
Originally Posted by Star_Seer
I would actually like rage to become a toggle power.
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While I don't have any numbers down at the moment (it's more of an idea I've got brewing in my head to give to Castle once GoRo hits and things settle down), it would allow Rage to act as a perma-capable power out of the box that allows you to deal a specific amount of damage more without allowing you to carry those benefits over to powers from outside the set. The downside, rather than not being able to attack for 10 seconds every cycle, would be an increase to the endurance cost of your SS powers (and only your SS powers) that's exactly in line with how much you're already paying for those powers to deal (i.e. if the tweaks I made increased base damage by 50%, the unenhanced end cost of the attack would go up by 50%; with 100% end redux, however, the end cost would be 100% higher than without Rage on).
Of course, coupled with this, I would also alter the base dam/rech/end of many of the attacks: Jab and Punch would be buffed to not be completely worthless (likely up to a 4-5 and 6-7 base recharge time) and Hurl would get buffed so that it would have a competitive DPA as well (likely up to a 12-15 sec recharge time). I probably wouldn't do much else to the powers in the set, other than possibly turning Hand Clap's KB into KU (and likely giving it an extra mag of stun or some kind of -tohit debuff while Rage is active, possibly give it some degree of smashing damage). I would like to reduce the radius on Footstomp to boot, but, honestly, I doubt that would happen, even if there was a good deal of justification for it (like the AoE area formula) simply because of player backlash (though I would hope the buff to the set elsewhere would make up for that).
I figured making it a toggle was a fairly reasonable idea since most people can easily get enough global recharge with IOs that it stacks. Making it a toggle gets rid of the crash and admittedly you won't be able to multi stack rage anymore but at least it would be more consistent. It would also mean you could have somthing else as your auto power like hasten or practiced brawler ect.
I can definitely say...in my opinion...there is nothing you could do to the set to "justify"(again, only in my opinion) lowering the radius of Footstomp.
Rage as a toggle would be interesting. A constant damage/tohit buff in exchange for some sort of larger debuff. I know the defense and damage debuff with now isn't the best choice (mostly at the Defense debuff) and for reasons I wont go into, so it would need something else.
With a high endurance cost (unenhancable?), long recharge between acitvations and.. Well, what about -recharge? Harder yet slower hits, it could fit thematically, but then I suppose it'd just be going against Fire Armour and Regen (incase of SS Scrappers or Regen Brutes) rather than defensive based sets due to the reliance on self heal/s.
How about this for an interesting thought: Toggle, 80% smashing damage buff, 0.52/sec endurance drain (unenhancable), -15% tohit? It can work with the classic lumbering brute (not the AT) which is usually given super strength to some degree. Really big hits, but they may have trouble hitting in the first place. I think with the amount of ideas available of how it could work, all it needs is a downside which wouldn't hinder one set over another
And Umbral, while your idea sounds great, it also sounds like it'd need alot of work for just one set. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best.
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For the person who took offense to my previous post...I was just adding to what Umbral had said..."I would like to reduce the radius on Footstomp to boot, but, honestly, I doubt that would happen, even if there was a good deal of justification for it (like the AoE area formula) simply because of player backlash (though I would hope the buff to the set elsewhere would make up for that)."
I was just trying to bring home the fact that to some...nothing could "justify" the radius change.
I apologize for offending who ever I offended.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
I've actually been working on a tweak to SS that would require making Rage into a toggle power (and a free one to boot). Rather than having Rage operate via +dam, I would have it work much like Swap Ammo, applying a global change to all SS attacks (and all of the other powers except for Taunt as well) has them deal another portion of damage (so that SS actually gains full benefits from any source of +dam) but counters this benefit by applying an irresistible -end effect for the base cost of that damage (i.e. the loss of end would be the exact same as you would experience if you were dealing that damage through another attack without any end redux in it). Along with this, I would reduce the +tohit by a fair deal, likely down to ~5% base (because I also plan suggesting the toggle variant have no endurance cost). Rage would still increase damage by a substantial degree and allow SS to fully benefit from +dam sources. By that same token, I would give the toggle a 30 second recharge time (so that you can't just bounce it on and off to deal just the right amount of damage).
While I don't have any numbers down at the moment (it's more of an idea I've got brewing in my head to give to Castle once GoRo hits and things settle down), it would allow Rage to act as a perma-capable power out of the box that allows you to deal a specific amount of damage more without allowing you to carry those benefits over to powers from outside the set. The downside, rather than not being able to attack for 10 seconds every cycle, would be an increase to the endurance cost of your SS powers (and only your SS powers) that's exactly in line with how much you're already paying for those powers to deal (i.e. if the tweaks I made increased base damage by 50%, the unenhanced end cost of the attack would go up by 50%; with 100% end redux, however, the end cost would be 100% higher than without Rage on). Of course, coupled with this, I would also alter the base dam/rech/end of many of the attacks: Jab and Punch would be buffed to not be completely worthless (likely up to a 4-5 and 6-7 base recharge time) and Hurl would get buffed so that it would have a competitive DPA as well (likely up to a 12-15 sec recharge time). I probably wouldn't do much else to the powers in the set, other than possibly turning Hand Clap's KB into KU (and likely giving it an extra mag of stun or some kind of -tohit debuff while Rage is active, possibly give it some degree of smashing damage). I would like to reduce the radius on Footstomp to boot, but, honestly, I doubt that would happen, even if there was a good deal of justification for it (like the AoE area formula) simply because of player backlash (though I would hope the buff to the set elsewhere would make up for that). |
I like most of these ideas actually, with a couple of points:
- I think it's fine that rage affects outside powers, BU, Soul Drain, Follow Up, AAO, etc - all affect outside powers and the damage they deal. 2 of them can be made perma as well as rage, and I think that should remain a distinct part of the power.
- How about something like a +5% to hit with a scaling +0.5% to hit bonus for each mob in range? Again I think there are other powers that grant solid +To Hit bonuses and I think that would be nice to keep on Rage as well.
)
To answer the OP, imo SS would still be a strong contender for AOE, assuming Foot Stomp remained unchanged. One of the widest radius and shortest recharge AOEs in the game
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Just looking at Brute primaries, nearly every single Brute primary has a faster recharging PBAoE, with the exception of Fire Melee.
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Originally Posted by Stratos
To answer the OP, imo SS would still be a strong contender for AOE, assuming Foot Stomp remained unchanged. One of the widest radius and shortest recharge AOEs in the game
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"Short recharge" within the context of AoEs is generally a bad thing. Because the base damage of a power is tied to its recharge and endurance (if you want to get technical, damage determines the recharge and endurance costs; AoEs also have a further variable added in that the area of the power affects the recharge and endurance as well) and the fact that powers don't begin recharging until they finish animating, shorter recharges generate higher animation time use for the same average contribution than longer recharges. If anything, one of the things that makes Footstomp so good is that it has a 20 second recharge rather than a shorter 12 or 15 second recharge (it's also the reason why you can favorably compare SS to almost any other set for AoE damage capability because FS just takes so little of your total animation time to accomplish so much).
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Originally Posted by Stratos
One of the widest radius and shortest recharge AOEs in the game
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It's honestly not as much work as you might think. It just seems like a lot when you see me talk about it in the terms I have because I'm not Castle and I can't simply find a decent heuristic of performance that I want to use for my tweaked version of Rage and apply that to all of the powers. Most of the work that would be required would be in determining what the appropriate degree of improvement to base damage and end cost would be while Rage is active. Other than that, it's actually rather simple (including increasing dam/rech/end because that's all governed by a flat formula).|
Originally Posted by CBeet
And Umbral, while your idea sounds great, it also sounds like it'd need alot of work for just one set. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best.
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The problem with a "simple" solution is that there isn't really a "simple" solution for fixing the problems (both balance and playstyle) with SS. If there was, I'm pretty sure that the devs would have already implemented it. Any change to SS has to somehow manage to bolster performance without Rage (because the set is utter rubbish pre-Rage) while keeping performance with Rage balanced to some degree while keeping the existing feel of the set. You can't simply buff the damage of the low end powers of the set because then you're also increasing performance when you've got Rage. You can't turn Rage into a clone of BU either because the set relies on Rage to accomplish almost anything.
I decided upon the method for fixing SS that I did because it fulfilled all of the qualities that it should have: the set wouldn't suck horribly without Rage, Rage still provides a tangible and substantial benefit that can be leveraged for a lot of power, and the set doesn't become something completely different than it used to be.
Even with Rage SS isn't too great without lots of +recharge. It's absolutely brutal with stacked Rage and 6-second recharge Foot Stomp but with standard SOs or a cheap IO build it's average at best. Losing Rage would make it unplayable without very high recharge (enough to use Build Up every fight).
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Originally Posted by Vitality
For the person who took offense to my previous post...I was just adding to what Umbral had said..."I would like to reduce the radius on Footstomp to boot, but, honestly, I doubt that would happen...
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Except there is no reason to reduce Footstomp's radius.
It's the crown of the set.
Looking at Brute Primaries, Claws has the highest DPA PBAoE with Spin, it's also on a much faster recharge time, but suffers with a very small radius.
Fire Sword Circle has lower DPA than Spin, but higher than Footstomp. Same recharge as FS, smaller radius.
Footstomp has the largest radius, but lower DPA than both of those. It also has the highest end cost, and has added mitigation as a benefit.
This is vs. 2 other primaries, Claws and Fire Melee, that both have better single target attack chains* for less end cost and other AoE attacks built into their sets.
*Not discussing IO builds, or outside pool attacks here.
Hand Clap should be far more useful. Its KB on top of its 30s rech and no damage make it highly undesirable. (aside from the PbAoE 15' Radius)
Hand Clap should be changed to Cone:
PvE DMG Scale: 1.42
Range: 15'
DMG: 31.28 up to 7'
DMG: 31.28 DMG up to 15' (so it hits twice within 7' and once within 15')
Arc: 90 Deg
Keep current disorient effects
RES -13% for 8s. (Stackable from Same Caster)
(No more KB)
As for Rage, while we're throwing out opinions I always envisioned Rage as being an ability that increases damage and damage resistance(8% RES to All DMG but Psi, Stackable) at the cost of some (-5% To-Hit Self) accuracy and an energy crash when it falls. However, the crash should only happen if you're not fighting, not at a fixed timer. The best way to simulate that would be to turn Rage into an attack, but without damage. Rage can be a mini-taunt(Targeted AoE, 15' Radius, 40' Range, Mag 4 +13.5s), and would only crash when the duration expires and hadn't been renewed on targets(max 10). Being enraged should also intimidate your opposition to some degree with a minor to-hit debuff(-10% To-Hit Targets)
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Except that you're missing some extremely important things: DPA doesn't matter where AoEs are concerned because DPA is only a valuable metric when you are animation time saturated (something that SS is definitely not) and endurance costs are based on a dam/rech/end formula so FS costs more end explicitly because it deals more damage (and you're also bringing it up against Claws, which gets a discount to end and rech as its powerset "secondary effect", and Fire, which gets greater end efficiency because its secondary effect is simply more damage; you're also ignoring the whole "massive permanent +dam provides increases to end efficiency" thing that SS has, which actually makes FS more end efficient than FSC).|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Footstomp has the largest radius, but lower DPA than both of those. It also has the highest end cost, and has added mitigation as a benefit.
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Footstomp has been proven to be 5' larger than it is supposed to be by the formula the devs use to determine the size, damage, and costs of AoEs. The only "reason" it has for being larger is that the devs let it slide way back when. Everyone that knows how the devs design the game and what they use to determine the various attributes of powers realizes that Footstomp is larger than it has any right to be (and then there's the fact that it also gets a very nice secondary effect attached to it as well). The only "reason" as to why FS gets to simply be a better attack than any other AoE out there (because those other powers don't get to break the AoE formula) that has ever been reasonably brought up to defend Footstomp is that it is a tier 9 power, and, even then, that argument doesn't hold water because the devs have outright said that what tier a power is doesn't have any effect how it handles the formulas used.
... Rage were changed to Build Up? This is purely hypothetical, but Rage is a huge reason why I continue to roll Super Strength characters rather than other melee sets. Would the set be underpowered if it lost Rage?