Here's something I wrote up when this question came up recently in the Brute forum:
Here's how I would compare the sets:
First four attacks for both all ST, Axe attacks have KD or KU, Mace attacks, 3 with stuns, one with KU. Mace has the highest damaging ST attack of the two. (Clobber)
One full PBAoE attack in each set, Axe's does KD, Mace's does stun. Mace's attack does slightly more damage than Axe's.
Two final attacks in both sets are cones that do KD; one narrow cone, one wide cone. Both of Axe's attacks do more damage per foe, but Mace's narrow code is wider, and its wide cone can hit more foes. (10 vs 5 for Axe)
The general consensus is that Mace has better AoE because of the differences in the last two attacks. However, some players prefer KD as damage mitigation or hate the "stun wander"; which gives Axe the edge for them.
Personally, I prefer Mace, because 1) My first tank was Invul/Mace, and I'm thrilled with the buffs it was given, and 2) I like having more than one form of damage mitigation in my secondary, and Clobber's auto-stun is extremely useful, and 3) I like Mace's greater AoE capacity since the changes to Shatter and Crowd Control.
As always, YMMV.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Dude, your name has "hammer" in it. Jus' sayin'.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Quote:
You raise a VALID point !!!!
|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Dude, your name has "hammer" in it. Jus' sayin'.
|
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
War Mace by a hair.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
I asked this exact question a while back. The impression I got was: close enough to not really matter. If you have any preference of stun vs knockdown, or thematic reasons, go with that.
Since Ironblade is broadsword/regen, for Ironshield (my tank) I went with SD/axe. The edged weapon theme fit better for me.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I hope we eventually get some animation customization for weapons. I have a War Mace tanker, and the animations are pretty much all re-used to some extent with Axe and Broad Sword. Makes it harder for me to play my alts with those powersets.
Not sure if that makes a difference for you or not. I prefer the smashy feel of War Mace, but I don't think the difference in performance is too drastic, or something that should affect your decision. The minimal differences have been listed already: I'd go with how the set feels to you and what sounds like more fun.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
I did hear a little birdie mention that (dear lord finally) They will be switching them on the axe version as well. Catch 22 though, is of course that Axe will still have the same narrower cone though.| Two final attacks in both sets are cones that do KD; one narrow cone, one wide cone. Both of Axe's attacks do more damage per foe, but Mace's narrow code is wider, and its wide cone can hit more foes. (10 vs 5 for Axe) |
Also Cleave/Pendulum recharge in 15 seconds whereas Crowd Control/ Shatter recharge in 12.
I'd say it depends more on what primary you're pairing them with.
If its a set that you'd want hasten for, like invuln, ice, or elec (dp/hoarfrost/energize) I'd go with axe, cause you'd get more use out of hasten by doing so. If its a primary that doesn't need hasten, like willpower, shield, or dark, I'd go with mace (not to mention mace's stuns meshing with oppressive gloom in DA).
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
Quote:
What happened to the fire tank?
|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
If its a set that you'd want hasten for, like invuln, ice, or elec (dp/hoarfrost/energize) I'd go with axe, cause you'd get more use out of hasten by doing so. If its a primary that doesn't need hasten, like willpower, shield, or dark, I'd go with mace (not to mention mace's stuns meshing with oppressive gloom in DA).
|
Quote:
I was giving examples, I didn't mention them all. Fire right now though, lolz, but thankfully If I heard correctly they are buffing fire armor up soon. Its a set that can benefit from hasten, while at the same time not show too much of a difference by not getting it as well, so it was kinda in between for the context of my response anyways.|
Originally Posted by LSK
What happened to the fire tank?
|
(fyi to those wondering huh?, I can't remember the thread I read it in, might have been posted by castle or positron themselves, but IIRC I thought I remembered hearing, first off, removing the fear in burn, 2ndly increasing the resistances in the armor, and thirdly adding more resistance to debuffs in the set, like boosting the slow resistance and possibly adding end drain resistance, and fear/confuse protection)
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
Castle just said he would give Fiery Aura another look in the future. He gave no timeline, and was certainly not foolish enough to make promises before looking at it more. I think anything you are remembering were player suggestions in the thread (before it got REALLY heated discussing Shields).
Still, Fiery Aura is pretty good. I obviously like it a lot (given the guide in my sig), but I have a tank using most of the primaries, and it's still my favorite, despite having a few powers that need tweaking (not really drastic changes).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
Are you talking about the numbers of targets for CC/Pendulum here? If so, could you direct me to wherever you saw information about it being changed?|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
I did hear a little birdie mention that (dear lord finally) They will be switching them on the axe version as well. Catch 22 though, is of course that Axe will still have the same narrower cone though.
|
Why Pendulum was still max 5 targets was discussed when CC was changed to 10 targets, and my impression from Castle at that time was that the difference wasn't an oversight, but was done deliberately as a way to differentiate the two sets and give WM more of an AoE focus.
Things change, of course, but the sets are pretty well balanced now, and it seems that if they are going to change Pendulum to 10 targets it would reduce the differentiation between the sets unless they give WM something new, too.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Are you talking about the numbers of targets for CC/Pendulum here? If so, could you direct me to wherever you saw information about it being changed?
Why Pendulum was still max 5 targets was discussed when CC was changed to 10 targets, and my impression from Castle at that time was that the difference wasn't an oversight, but was done deliberately as a way to differentiate the two sets and give WM more of an AoE focus. |
Really?
I was under the impression that from a strict DPS comparison standpoint, WM pulled ahead vs. Single Targets a well.
For the OP: Even if we disregarded everything else - Crowd Control's base performance alone makes WM the better of the two IMO.
Quote:
Im going with the hammer.... Now Im just deciding if I go Brute or Tank..
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Really?
I was under the impression that from a strict DPS comparison standpoint, WM pulled ahead vs. Single Targets a well. For the OP: Even if we disregarded everything else - Crowd Control's base performance alone makes WM the better of the two IMO. |
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Im going with the hammer.... Now Im just deciding if I go Brute or Tank..
|
Ah so you take our learned advice and run over to those wannabe Tanks huh.
Now we know, no more nuggets of wisdom for jue.
Quote:
Ive got lots of tanks.. very few brutes..Its more of a theme thing in my head. Most of my tanks are protectors. I see this toon with the Rularuu shield and hammer as more of a savage striker and that says Brute in my head.
|
Originally Posted by Acemace
Ah so you take our learned advice and run over to those wannabe Tanks huh.
Now we know, no more nuggets of wisdom for jue. |
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
It's been a while since I've seen Starman's charts, but I thought they were about even for ST damage, with Axe pulling ahead with some levels of recharge. Could be misremembering, though.
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Really?
I was under the impression that from a strict DPS comparison standpoint, WM pulled ahead vs. Single Targets a well. |
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
The only thing I would add is that your defensive set makes a difference.
Particularly, Fire and Willpower have reasons to prefer Axe. The knockdown in Axe makes Burn easier to use, while the stuns in Mace don't help. The stuns in Mace can also set mobs running away at high speed, which doesn't help Willpower.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
It's been a while since I've seen Starman's charts, but I thought they were about even for ST damage, with Axe pulling ahead with some levels of recharge. Could be misremembering, though.
|
I'll have to look for that chart, I was going by Bill Z's thread in the scrapper forums (using Brute numbers).
The two sets have virtual carbon copied ST damage, but Mace is slightly more effective in AoE then it's counterpart, as you can see in Starsman's handy charts.
However Cleave does considerably more damage then Shatter, and Clobber has higher End cost then Swoop which has a 70% chance for k/u, Whirling Axe has a 50% chance to k/d while Whirling Mace only has a 30% chance to disorient.
So aside from the ST/AoE damage math, to compare the two sets you have to consider that every Axe attack does knock up or down which is considerably more effective as damage mitigation and simply gives BA much better control then the equivalent disorients in Mace.
Even WA has a 20% higher chance of performing a superior type of mitigation compared to it's counterpart.
So when all factors are considered the differences between the sets are negligible, as both sets currently have fairly good attack speeds, some disorienting and knockUp/Down capabilities, an accuracy bonus, moderate to high endurance use, heavy smashing aoe, and strong ST damage.
Personally I would suggest a fire/mace Tank, I've gotten good milage from the pairing.
Thanks, Ace, for digging those up. (Though I personally don't consider KD to be inherently superior to stun as mitigation, I do agree the very low chance to stun in lower level WM attacks is pretty useless.)
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
Bingo. The real difference in the two sets is in the lower attacks.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Thanks, Ace, for digging those up. (Though I personally don't consider KD to be inherently superior to stun as mitigation, I do agree the very low chance to stun in lower level WM attacks is pretty useless.)
|
Stun vs kd/u:
Toons that like crowds prefer knockdown/up. For tanks, that's almost all of them. Brutes and scraps, a different story.
A SR brute would likely prefer stun, an inv would prefer knockdown/knockup. Etc, etc.
Honestly, the two sets are so close it's hard to call, play what ya like.
Stun vs. KU/KD...
Stuns
you can layer stuns, to give increased time mitigated. This means, though, that the initial stun isn't as strong if used vs. hard targets. While stunned foes wander, they stay stunned longer. This is handy for attack prevention. <looks at problem targets like sappers/teleporters, etc.>
Stunning a target also turns off their annoying toggles. CoT -tohit toggles, sorcerer hurricanes, etc. are some examples.
As stunning is calculated as a longer/stronger effect, the endurance is always higher.
KU/KD
These are immediate, even on bosses. You can juggle if timed well. Foes don't leave your reach as much. If you KU/KD a foe beforehand, they can't activate powers. Unfortunately, this is a timing thing. they can release a power they started to activate if you're too late. If you get the jump on a foe, you have a good chance of keeping them from doing something bad if your first strike knocks them around. Some enemies are knock resistant...and some, like clocks and underlings, are hyper-sensitive to it. (Getting knocked back.)
Quote:
The only difference between the tier 1 and tier 2 attacks in Mace and Axe is stun/KD, and chance to stun/KD. Everything else is identical. |
Originally Posted by mauk2
Bingo. The real difference in the two sets is in the lower attacks.
|
Even though the stuns in Bash and Pulverize are pretty useless, given that most players only take one of the two anyway, and Jawbreaker is available at level 8, IMO those attacks are hardly a distinguishing feature between the sets. As a matter of fact, I'd describe that point of comparison as trivial compared to Clobber's damage and the differences between the tier 8 and 9 cones.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Acemace
The two sets have virtual carbon copied ST damage, but Mace is slightly more effective in AoE then it's counterpart, as you can see in Starsman's handy charts.
However Cleave does considerably more damage then Shatter, and Clobber has higher End cost then Swoop which has a 70% chance for k/u, Whirling Axe has a 50% chance to k/d while Whirling Mace only has a 30% chance to disorient. So aside from the ST/AoE damage math, to compare the two sets you have to consider that every Axe attack does knock up or down which is considerably more effective as damage mitigation and simply gives BA much better control then the equivalent disorients in Mace. Even WA has a 20% higher chance of performing a superior type of mitigation compared to it's counterpart. So when all factors are considered the differences between the sets are negligible, as both sets currently have fairly good attack speeds, some disorienting and knockUp/Down capabilities, an accuracy bonus, moderate to high endurance use, heavy smashing aoe, and strong ST damage. Personally I would suggest a fire/mace Tank, I've gotten good milage from the pairing. |
Thanks for all that, and the link.
Taking all of that into consideration, I'll go back to my original opinion and say that Crowd Control tips the scales heavily in Warmace's favor.
Looking to make a new build. Want to use the Rularru weapons. Which set do you like better and why ??
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-