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Maximum Resistance:|
Originally Posted by Elvenheart
Hi there...this is a pretty basic question, but I was just wondering with Brutes, Scrappers, and Tanks having so many of the same primaries and secondaries, what is the difference among those ATs? With us being able to choose any AT soon in Praetoria, I just want to be sure I start off with the right one when I try out Kinetic Melee
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Tanker, Brutes: 90%
Scrappers: 75%
Damage Modifers:
Brutes: 0.750
Tankers: 0.800
Scrappers: 1.125
Damage Cap:
Brutes: 850%
Scrappers: 500%
Tankers: 400%
Hit Points Cap:
Tanker: 3212.7
Brute: 3212.7
Scrapper: 2409.5
Hit Points (default):
Tanker: 1874.1
Brute: 1499.3
Scrapper: 1338.6
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In short, what does this mean?
Tankers can TAKE massive damage, but dish out little.
Scrappers can take a fair amount of damage (far short of Tankers), but dish out a massive amount of damage.
Brutes can take more than Scrappers, and with buffs as much as a Tanker at their cap (equal caps). Brutes also start out doing the worst damage, but also come with Fury which makes it fairly trivial to reach +140% damage buff (~70 Fury), putting Brutes at about the same damage output as Scrappers.
This is a gross over simplification, since there's other fundamental differences in the ATs, such as aggro management, as well as completely ignoring the huge differences between most (many?) of their powersets (primarily the older Tanker/Brute vs Scrapper sets).
Check out the articles on ParagonWiki for more information.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Some of this also stands to change with Going Rogue.
It's been hinted at that some of the inherent powers are receiving the same type of rework that Defenders got with Vigilance / Negligence. What those differences could be, well, requires waiting for a developer comment or an open-beta.
What do you want to be able to do? If you are going to solo, a tank is the safest but slowest of the three. If you want to draw aggro away from your teammates and survive it, a tank is your best bet. Both scrappers and brutes can solo well, but personally I think scrappers solo better. Brutes can get more benefit from teammates' buffs, though. Really, it's hard to go wrong.
I suppose one fundamental difference is the inherent. Brutes get fury, which increases their damage output as long as they're fighting. Scrappers get criticals, which allow them to do bonus damage at random times, especially against bosses. Tanks have gauntlet, a taunt effect which helps them keep aggro.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
Beyond all the stats and inherents already mentioned, the way each plays is very different too. Tanks are as you'd expect, you're managing aggro and taking the pain so they're best played on teams - as such Kinetic Melee would not be as important as your primary powerset anyway.
Scrappers I find are just overcharged bundles of aggression waiting to be let loose 
built right, they are easily survivable *enough* but have high damage output.
Brutes are a curious mix of the two - you have the potential to be more survivable than a scrapper, and you'll be generating more aggro than one, but the Fury inherent encourages you to keep attacking to keep your damage up. So the "ball of flying fists" mentality comes in again here too.
Stalkers are very much hit-and-run specialists, especially solo - and they spend a lot of time solo since sadly, not many people seem to want one on a team. They're squishier than the other melee ATs but also get the benefit of REALLY high burst damage when attacking from hiding.
What ATs do you play at the moment, and what do you find most fun about them? What's not so fun?
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(EDIT) ...I am a fool. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Damage Cap:
Brutes: 850% Scrappers: 500% Tankers: 400% |
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"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
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Stalkers used to be more hit-and-run specialists. Stalkers can now often go toe-to-toe with Scrappers when it comes to Scrapping, although when the [censored] hits the fan, the Stalker will likely die first (ignoring powerset difference & player ability difference, as well as scrapperlock), and have a similar level of damage output (plus, Assassin's Strike has chance-to cause a high mag fear, as well as causing a completely unresistable even by level tohit debuff). Stalkers are also the only AT that have the ability to explicitly shred aggro as opposed to generate extra (i.e. the Taunt power Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers all have, plus the punchvoke of Brutes & Tankers).|
Originally Posted by Super_Ready
Stalkers are very much hit-and-run specialists, especially solo - and they spend a lot of time solo since sadly, not many people seem to want one on a team. They're squishier than the other melee ATs but also get the benefit of REALLY high burst damage when attacking from hiding.
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Hate to say it but this is wrong. Scrappers are definitely 400% and I'm fairly sure tanks are 300%. Not that you'd ever reach either without a whole team of buffers or a /kin or two.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Some of this also stands to change with Going Rogue.
It's been hinted at that some of the inherent powers are receiving the same type of rework that Defenders got with Vigilance / Negligence. What those differences could be, well, requires waiting for a developer comment or an open-beta. |
Statements like the above make me happy about procrastinating on purchasing GR.
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Build Up, Against All Odds and a few medium reds.
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Originally Posted by Super_Ready
Hate to say it but this is wrong. Scrappers are definitely 400% and I'm fairly sure tanks are 300%. Not that you'd ever reach either without a whole team of buffers or a /kin or two. |
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But unlike teaming, those last for a very limited amount of time. Not a constant max like teaming with Kins and such.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Build Up, Against All Odds and a few medium reds.
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As for the damage caps, Scrappers at base damage (100% of 500% cap) are about a brute at 240% (+140%) of the 850% cap. If I remember right, a brute at the damage cap is about equal to a scrapper at 600% (so another 100% beyond the scrapper damage cap).
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www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
For me and the way I play? I've found...
Brutes = Kamikaze. Very seriously, the Rage meter is a demanding, but satisfying, master/mistress. As such I've found myself being far more aggressive and taking more risks just to keep my Rage up.
Tanks = Slow and steady. Old reliable.
Scrappers = Machete. They're pretty awesome, I think. Just go through, whacking everything, and you're pretty darn sturdy at that. Might not be the prettiest thing but it works. I consider high HP enemies to be like banana plants - *whack*whack*whack*whack*whack* till it finally goes down. Great, reliable, solid.
Stalkers = Scalpel. Granted, I've not played since the changes, but I loved using them to surgically remove problems. If it buffs, debuffs, or is high in rank? It dies. I usually waited until the enemies were engaged/aggro'd before taking my shot when on teams.
Two things:
1) Starflier- "Semantics" makes a large difference in this case. You see the number of posts by my name? I got about a thousand of those posts arguing the scrapper case on the blaster boards, back when scrappers were at 500% (+400%) and blasters were at 400%(+300%) and the number of people who mixed up +400% and 400% was large. In some cases
2) OP: Tanks are a LOT tougher than Scrappers or [usually] Brutes. Scrappers and Brutes get 75% of the buff values from defensive buffs (look at [unyielding] and for the green name, change from one to the other), which has a nonlinear effect on actual survivability. To [attempt to] explain: Let's say you have a tank with 88% Smash/Lethal resistance and a Scrapper with 66% Smash/Lethal resistance. Same powers, slotted the same way. Hit them both with a Freak Tank hammer doing 1000 points of damage. Scrapper takes 340 points. Tank takes 120. That is NOT "33% tougher." It is roughly three times as tough.
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@Boltcutter in game.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Two things:
2) OP: Tanks are a LOT tougher than Scrappers or [usually] Brutes. Scrappers and Brutes get 75% of the buff values from defensive buffs (look at [unyielding] and for the green name, change from one to the other), which has a nonlinear effect on actual survivability. To [attempt to] explain: Let's say you have a tank with 88% Smash/Lethal resistance and a Scrapper with 66% Smash/Lethal resistance. Same powers, slotted the same way. Hit them both with a Freak Tank hammer doing 1000 points of damage. Scrapper takes 340 points. Tank takes 120. That is NOT "33% tougher." It is roughly three times as tough. |
The scrapper can build for survivability and once you can survive at the aggro cap you don't need more. The tank really cant build for damage. It starts with the with the much lower base numbers then hits the reduced cap.
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and what... pray-tell... happens when the developers stat utilizing NPC critters that have more powerful debuffing effects? |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The scrapper can build for survivability and once you can survive at the aggro cap you don't need more. The tank really cant build for damage. It starts with the with the much lower base numbers then hits the reduced cap.
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What's going to be more valuable for taking aggro? A scrapper or a tank?
Thing is Another_Fan, you make the assumption that the enemy difficulty patterns in the game are going to remain constant, and that simply achieving "current" soft-cap is going to be good enough to make your avatar survivable against future challenges. Well, I have some food for thought that you probably don't want to chew on.
The developers have already made it clear that the amount of defense buffs in the IO sets was an unintentional oversight, and that defense, as a bonus, probably won't show up on any more sets. It has also been indicated that future enemy groups will be specifically targeted against some of the more prevalent IO builds.
So, if I'm looking for something that can take damage and still dish it out... I'll be looking for a Tank, not some pumped up scrapper.
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I was speaking about what is, not speculating on the next round of oopsies to hit powers. Just to address the gist of your speculation, anything that hurts defense is going to be problematic for both tanks and scrappers. If it pierces a scrappers soft cap, its going to make a shield tank or an invulnerable tank upset as well. You now have a toon that isn't surviveable and can't do damage.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
and what... pray-tell... happens when the developers stat utilizing NPC critters that have more powerful debuffing effects?
What's going to be more valuable for taking aggro? A scrapper or a tank? Thing is Another_Fan, you make the assumption that the enemy difficulty patterns in the game are going to remain constant, and that simply achieving "current" soft-cap is going to be good enough to make your avatar survivable against future challenges. Well, I have some food for thought that you probably don't want to chew on. The developers have already made it clear that the amount of defense buffs in the IO sets was an unintentional oversight, and that defense, as a bonus, probably won't show up on any more sets. It has also been indicated that future enemy groups will be specifically targeted against some of the more prevalent IO builds. So, if I'm looking for something that can take damage and still dish it out... I'll be looking for a Tank, not some pumped up scrapper. |
Some pros and cons of each melee AT are as follows.
Scrappas:
-consistently high damage, no catch
Highest damage mod means they do great damage, and crits are gravy.
-decent defences
Scrappas generally survive well, but some sets can be pretty squishy, especially early on. Much of their survivability comes from killing enemies first.
-decent potential for buffs
Inefficiency from buff overcap can be an issue for resistance-based scrappas, who hit the 75% res cap fast. +HP buffs are inefficient on some sets.
-low AFK actor
Go afk in the middle of a fight, and there's a fair chance you'll come back faceplanted.
Brutes:
-very high damage with a catch
Fury accumulates when brutes attack and get attacked and decays at a rapid rate. This allows brutes to do beastly damage. The catch is they lose damage potential if they are unable to hold aggro (e.g. another brute on team), enemies are not attacking them (e.g. mez-heavy team), or long delays happen in between fights (e.g. frequent need to afk).
-good defences, higher expectations
Brutes have the same defence numbers as scrappas for the most part, although they have higher base health. Due to AT dynamics and fury, however, brutes are often expected to take alpha strikes and tank like tankers. Survival rates vary.
-very high potential for buffs
Brutes have the highest potential for improvement via external buffs. Well-buffed brutes are extremely strong.
-average afk factor
Go afk in the middle of a fight, and there's a fair chance you'll come back faceplanted.
Tankers:
-low single-target damage
Depending on secondaries, tankers can put out decent AoE damage. Their single-target damage is pretty mediocre.
-high defences
High HP and thus high regen and better resistance/defence numbers make tankers capable of absorbing a lot of damage.
-decent potential for buffs
Buff inefficiency varies a lot from set to set, but there's generally room for some improvement all around.
-good afk factor
Go afk in the middle of a fight, and there's a good chance you'll come back and be able to resume the fight as if nothing happened.
Stalkers:
-high damage, no catch; nearly non-existent AoE damage for most sets
Higher crit rates than scrappas with ability to add spike damage with AS and placate.
-decent defences
Stalkers have blaster-level HP, so while they have scrappa-level res/def numbers, they can't take the same amount of punishment. On the other hand, they tend not to generate the amount of mass hate scrappas do, and placate sheds aggro.
-limited potential for buffs
Mostly the same as scrappas, but lower HP means the same amount of res/def/regen adds less survivability for stalkers. +HP is notably inefficient.
-good/low afk factor
Stalkers have the tool to shed aggro fast before an emergency afk. If that is not possible, they may still be neglected by enemies due to hide status returning. If aggro is not shed either way, afk stalkers faceplant fast.
I18 Hamidon raiding guide
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je saist is talking about enemy abilities, not any changes to player powers, but i suppose that sort of (not by most standards) subtle distinction was lost. Against enemies that ignore defense and/or resistance (Hamidon just as a random example) greater hp can be a significant aid to survival. Or let's pretend that Tankers tend to have greater resistance to debuffs than Scrappers or Brutes. (Unlikely, i know, but let's pretend.) In that case if the enemy in question only has moderate damage output, but has strong debuffs/can bypass defense, then the Tanker fares far better. Silly, but in that hypothetical situation Tankers are better. Once again, we're not talking about changes to player powers, only to enemy abilities.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I was speaking about what is, not speculating on the next round of oopsies to hit powers. Just to address the gist of your speculation, anything that hurts defense is going to be problematic for both tanks and scrappers. If it pierces a scrappers soft cap, its going to make a shield tank or an invulnerable tank upset as well. You now have a toon that isn't surviveable and can't do damage.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Read closer.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
je saist is talking about enemy abilities, not any changes to player powers, but i suppose that sort of (not by most standards) subtle distinction was lost. Against enemies that ignore defense and/or resistance (Hamidon just as a random example) greater hp can be a significant aid to survival. Or let's pretend that Tankers tend to have greater resistance to debuffs than Scrappers or Brutes. (Unlikely, i know, but let's pretend.) In that case if the enemy in question only has moderate damage output, but has strong debuffs/can bypass defense, then the Tanker fares far better. Silly, but in that hypothetical situation Tankers are better. Once again, we're not talking about changes to player powers, only to enemy abilities.
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Edit: and not into
Doh!! Ok, so I was wrong on the caps. Kitsune hit the nail on the head - I was thinking of how it shows under Real Numbers. Original post edited
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"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
These debuffing/defence/resistance-ignoring enemies already exist in the game. Early-game has Vahz, snakes, CoT. Mid-level has CoT, PPD, Longbow, CoT, Arachnos, shivans, wailers. Late game has Anti-Matter bots, Cimerorans, PPD, Longbow, Arachnos, Carnies, CoT, Malta, Rularuu, Nemesis, Vanguard, Nictus, Hamidon, etc.
AE mismatches and customs.
Some of them are capable of doing this in five seconds:
http://euniana.kahlan.org/cox-lummy-ppd-nodef.jpg
I'd hate to see harder foes than these.
I18 Hamidon raiding guide
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not even changes to existing enemies. I'm talking about new enemies with new abilities. I mean, my opening line was this:|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
je saist is talking about enemy abilities, not any changes to player powers, but i suppose that sort of (not by most standards) subtle distinction was lost. Against enemies that ignore defense and/or resistance (Hamidon just as a random example) greater hp can be a significant aid to survival. Or let's pretend that Tankers tend to have greater resistance to debuffs than Scrappers or Brutes. (Unlikely, i know, but let's pretend.) In that case if the enemy in question only has moderate damage output, but has strong debuffs/can bypass defense, then the Tanker fares far better. Silly, but in that hypothetical situation Tankers are better. Once again, we're not talking about changes to player powers, only to enemy abilities.
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| and what... pray-tell... happens when the developers stat utilizing NPC critters that have more powerful debuffing effects? |
Then again, I forgot whom I was directing the post at. When it comes to Another_troll, you have to spell everything out bit by bit.
Thanks for all the input, everyone. You've really given me something to think about. I'm sure I'll reread this thread several times before deciding, but right now I"m leaning toward brute. I like how this AT seems to be somewhere between a scrapper and a tank, and I think I'll like the fury concept based on my playstyle
No, no, no, I don't think you understand how this works. You don't pick an AT... you roll an alt for each, and play every possible combination
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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*AN* alt for each? *AN*? Honey, that there's only 10 alts! 14 once you get your first 20 on each side, but how the hell will that happen if you're rolling alts all the time!?!|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
No, no, no, I don't think you understand how this works. You don't pick an AT... you roll an alt for each, and play every possible combination
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You obviously need to roll as many alts as it takes to play every single powerset available to each AT, possibly multiple times!
*coughs and pushes aside her list of 100+ characters*
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Hi there...this is a pretty basic question, but I was just wondering with Brutes, Scrappers, and Tanks having so many of the same primaries and secondaries, what is the difference among those ATs? With us being able to choose any AT soon in Praetoria, I just want to be sure I start off with the right one when I try out Kinetic Melee