This may have more to do with the genre than with the eccentricities of NPC designers. Take a look through the racks in your local comic book store, where out-of-towners like Superman and Thor stand tall around 7 feet, and villains like Doctor Octopus loom over their victims, not beneath. But even "ordinary" heroes like Batman seem to stand taller when suited up, just look at them standing next to sidekicks or damsels in distress.
A human like Captain-America, a most relevant example here, looks MUCH different after being exposed to super serum, which is exactly the kind of situation that's going on with the Council (as told in their bios). Those council members who are really very tall have been exposed to some pretty naughty amounts of serum and experimentation.
So, in a nutshell, there is nothing wrong with the game. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. Comic books are controlling the transmission. If they wish to make NPCs taller, they will pump up the super serum.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
Oh wow. Kind of embarassed now. 
Thanks for the info. Five years or so and I'm still learning things about this game. That would make sense with the Freakshow too, so I think you've got it spot-on. 
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Don't be embarrassed, Paragon City is weird in that it can be very familiar (cities, pedestrians, traffic lights), and yet very alien (sometimes literally so). You'll never see 8-foot pedestrians walking around, nor gangs like the Hellions or Skulls, as they get their powers from sources other than serums. But some mutates (Lost) and serum-imbibers (Council) can get pretty buffed out. The Freakshow have their Excelsior, good call there. But even some mutants among the Outcast leadership seem a little buffer than average.|
Originally Posted by StormSurvivor
Oh wow. Kind of embarassed now.
Thanks for the info. Five years or so and I'm still learning things about this game. That would make sense with the Freakshow too, so I think you've got it spot-on. |
Another weird quirk. In a world where minor magic artifacts are common and widespread practical magic takes care of many menial tasks, some forms of technology are relied upon less and actually advance SLOWER--as evidenced by 1970s-era consumer automobiles all over the streets--in a world where sentient androids can have super hero licenses. (Even if some of these contrasts weren't intended by the devs, they do actually make sense in continuity!)
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
Actually, once I started using MA, I realized what might be another reason the Devs chose to make somany enemies seemingly oversized- the player's perspecive is usually from behind and above thier character- if your critters are "average height", this perspective makes them look undersized.
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Combine this with only 2 of the original five ATs being melee oriented so vaguely about 3/5ths of the player base fighting at a distances, the height differences might not be noticed until someone rolls a tank or a scrapper.|
Originally Posted by Heartbreaker
Actually, once I started using MA, I realized what might be another reason the Devs chose to make somany enemies seemingly oversized- the player's perspecive is usually from behind and above thier character- if your critters are "average height", this perspective makes them look undersized.
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(Or a poor ranged Sod whiffs on their attacks)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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8 foot pedestrians? Possibly not. 7 foot plus pedestrians? Commonplace. The civilians in Paragon are all unduly large. Contacts, too. Decorum is 6' 5" by the scaler and is often shorter than people on the street.
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Captain_Electric doesn't look closely: Don't be embarrassed, Paragon City is weird in that it can be very familiar (cities, pedestrians, traffic lights), and yet very alien (sometimes literally so). You'll never see 8-foot pedestrians walking around, nor gangs like the Hellions or Skulls, as they get their powers from sources other than serums. |
Dec out.
Yeah. Got to Paragon University and look at the lecturers. Giants! A lot of the Peds you save are also pushing 6' as a minimum.
Council and 5th goons being 7' something? That works; their junked up on Super Soldier Serum, I worry more about the midget Cor Leonis and Ubermencsh we see sometimes 
I do kinda wish the pedestrians would have a more standard hieght, though. Some of my characters who are 'normal' height (i.e between 5-6 foot) end up feeling dwarfed when they really shouldnt.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Probably not related to the subject but: the world itself seems oddly proportioned. I mean, look at the sidewalks...they're HUGE! Like, over 2-lane-road big. You can drive a pair of semis side-by-side into some alleys. It really doesn't help make your big character feel big when everything is big...does the opposite, in fact.
And yet tall buildings have a footprint smaller than my apartment (which is quite small indeed). Yes, lots of odd disproportions in this game. Some I understand why and some I do not at all.
Dec out.
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In a world where a card board box can impeded your motion, you want enough space the get around these bits os super-powered garbage.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Probably not related to the subject but: the world itself seems oddly proportioned. I mean, look at the sidewalks...they're HUGE! Like, over 2-lane-road big. You can drive a pair of semis side-by-side into some alleys. It really doesn't help make your big character feel big when everything is big...does the opposite, in fact.
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"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Seriously Devs! Isn't it about time the streets and alleys were cleared of this graphically-locked crap and replaced with phys-x stuff?
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
In a world where a card board box can impeded your motion, you want enough space the get around these bits os super-powered garbage.
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"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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I think it's most likely this, as a lot of game developers do it with their models. One example is Killer Croc from Arkham Asylum: originally he was 'only' eight foot tall, which is absolutely huge by any standard, but due to the camera perspective he simply wasn't intimidating enough as there wasn't a big sense of scale. Once they'd kicked him up to about sixteen feet in height, bam, he was imposing again.
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Originally Posted by Heartbreaker
Actually, once I started using MA, I realized what might be another reason the Devs chose to make somany enemies seemingly oversized- the player's perspecive is usually from behind and above thier character- if your critters are "average height", this perspective makes them look undersized.
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They do it with the Hulk all the time.
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Originally Posted by poptart_fairy
I think it's most likely this, as a lot of game developers do it with their models. One example is Killer Croc from Arkham Asylum: originally he was 'only' eight foot tall, which is absolutely huge by any standard, but due to the camera perspective he simply wasn't intimidating enough as there wasn't a big sense of scale. Once they'd kicked him up to about sixteen feet in height, bam, he was imposing again.
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"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
I don't mind Council being ridiculously tall, but I wish it was more linked to their ranks. It's bad enough they're all (mostly) wearing the same uniform, but I can't even pinpoint the bosses by their size! Oh, a super tall guy, that must be an Archon! Oh, no...that was just a minion.
I don't remember if the 5th Column is the same way, but I find it amusing how short Requiem is.
"Everyone focus on Requiem!"
"I can't see him?!"
"I think he got stuck under Rommy's boot"
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A couple of points on this:|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Yeah. Got to Paragon University and look at the lecturers. Giants! A lot of the Peds you save are also pushing 6' as a minimum.
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1. Could we please stop calling civilians "peds?" That has all sorts of unpleasant connotations.
2. The University teachers that you see now are their SCALED-DOWN versions. The originals were almost twice their size, or at the very least at the top of the height scale.
Height scale in City of Heroes is something that has always been "off." One piece of advise I'm going to give everyone right off the bat - ignore the height ruler at character creation. It's drawn to its own fictitious scale that has nothing to do with anything at all. Instead, peruse the height SLIDER.
For the Male and Huge models, middle-slider is "average height." Even if the ruler says average height is something like 6'5'', ignore it. THAT is average height. If you try and match your character to the ruler and make him a realistic, say, 6'8'', you will be a MIDGET. That's about a third from the LOWEST height. Ignore the ruler and just pick the height by eye. If you want your character to be average, use mid-slider. If you want your character to be slightly higher than average, go a few notches right. If you want your character to be really tall, but not freakish, go about a third to a quarter to the end. Most importantly, ignore the ruler.
For female characters, middle slider is "very short." I don't know why it was decided that female characters would be tiny compared to makes, but female models are about a foot shorter than male models at mid-slider. I realise that statistically, women are somewhat shorter than men in real life, but one would think this would be up to the player to decide. Not so. A woman of middle slider will spawn at aroun 5'8'' on the ruler, and if someone wants to be "realistic" and make his female, say, 5'2'', then what you will get is a tiny little child, not in the slightest a grown woman. As we've established, "average height" is around 6'5''. Here's my advise - when making female characters, push the slider up until your characters matches the male model, or goes up to at least above 6 feet on the ruler, then go from there. If you want slightly shorter, go a few notches down. If you want very short, go down to about mid-slider. Most importantly, if you want your woman to be "tall" in any meaningful sense, go up to AT LEAST a third from the end, possibly a quarter from the end if you want a normal but tall-looking female.
I'm not saying this just to make numbers up. Pedestrians in the game, as well as most male contacts, aren't actually sized by the ruler. They're sized by the slider. Pedestrians are all middle-slider (i.e. 6'5'') so if you want average height, match THEM. Ignore the slider and match what you see from civilians. Beyond them, enemy NPCs are even taller than that. Most Skulls and Hellions will have half a head or more on most civilians. If you want your character to be "tall," then ensure you match at least the Skulls and the Hellions.
This is actually one reason I fell in love with the Science Booster Pack. I originally made a female character who was supposed to be a giant Troll woman. I didn't want to go overboard, so I made her about a quarter from the end high. This made her barely taller than the skulls, thanks to them being much taller than 6 feet and women being much shorter than men. When the Science Booster came out, I jammed her height at the far right, as high as the slider could go, and now she's just about imposingly high. And even then, she mostly has a little over a head on most "normal-looking" NPCs, whereas I wanted her CLEARLY towering over them.
The height scales in this game are messed up, and the ruler is completely broken. Ignore the ruler and measure yourself by the civilians you meet.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I do agree with the rest and the 'Its broken' comment.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
A couple of points on this:
1. Could we please stop calling civilians "peds?" That has all sorts of unpleasant connotations. |
But...peds s bad? Peds = Pedestrians. I...wasn't aware of any ulterior meaning..? Unless it means sometehing wholly different across the pond? (I know your not from there, Sam, before you remind me
)
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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To be honest, I kind of enjoy that. I like the concept that raw brute strength and bug muscles can only take you so far, and that sometimes, the strongest one of them all isn't necessarily the most bloated one. It's the Old Sensei Effect in action, where a tiny unassuming old man will toss a bunch of big brawny muscle men like a salad. Yoda, in fact, is probably the quintessential old sensei of Western fiction.|
Originally Posted by Clebstein
"Everyone focus on Requiem!"
"I can't see him?!" "I think he got stuck under Rommy's boot" |
In fact, I've gotten into arguments with a friend of mine who tends to treat people like cattle, who insisted that all people wanted was BIG monsters to fight. While I'm sure many do, I still insist that a lot of the time, it doesn't befit the mastermind of a criminal organisation to be bigger than a tractor trailer, but it almost always befits him to be the strongest of his followers. And there's a certain amount of badassery to be had when the little guy is stronger than the big chumps you just smashed, even though he looks like he should be much weaker.
Basically, my problems with scale are that far too many enemies are far too big for far too little reason, not the other way around. My other problem with scale is that bosses often seem to be bigger than their followers, which doesn't always make sense, especially when their powers are not driven by their bodymass, such as mental powers or magic.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Likely referring to that it's shorthand for Pedophiles.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I do agree with the rest and the 'Its broken' comment.
But...peds s bad? Peds = Pedestrians. I...wasn't aware of any ulterior meaning..? Unless it means sometehing wholly different across the pond? (I know your not from there, Sam, before you remind me ) |
Could also be a racial slur, because sometimes you just have to wonder if a bunch of backwater hicks sometimes get together and shout random syllables until they arrive at something vaguely offensive sounding and then begin calling people of a random ethnic group that.
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Imagine how it looks to a kitten! EVERYONE and EVERYTHING looks monstrously big to me! 
It's a good thing that I can fly ... or I'd never get *anywhere*!
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I agree with Samuel Tow here; the numbers on the height slider just don't make sense, but scaling everything proportionally does.
I learned this from creating two different characters. One, my first, was made in late i3, when height and physique were the only adjustable variables. I made him slightly taller and slightly buffer than the median setting, and he always looked to be about the right size in-game. Later, after i4 brought finer scaling, I made a character based on George Washington, using a dollar bill to try to get the facial sliders right. I also looked up and copied his real height (6'4", if I recall correctly). I was surprised to see that he ended up shorter than most citizens and enemies once he got into the game.
Now, with the exceptions of those meant to be noticeably larger or smaller than ordinary humans, I make most male characters "seven" feet tall on the height slider, with female characters being just a bit shorter. This seems to work out pretty well in terms of looks.
As I wrote this, it occurred to me- maybe the height slider isn't measuring in feet at all, but in some other unit. Standard-size head height, maybe?
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Actually, Doc Ock needs his extra arms to loom over almost anyone, he's fairly short among the Marvel characters without them
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Originally Posted by Captain_Electric
...villains like Doctor Octopus loom over their victims, not beneath.
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Ah, see, in the UK its speal with an 'ae'....I think? |
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Likely referring to that it's shorthand for Pedophiles.
Could also be a racial slur, because sometimes you just have to wonder if a bunch of backwater hicks sometimes get together and shout random syllables until they arrive at something vaguely offensive sounding and then begin calling people of a random ethnic group that. |
But Pedestrians -> Peds isnt that long a jump, right?
I could use something more insulting for them and their Mag 100 Push effect >_>
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I doubt it. "Number of heads" measurements are a metric of scale which take the size of the head as the unit. The ruler's measurements, however, are static while head size varies. What's more, the "height" slider is not a true height slider, but rather a SCALE slider. That is to say, it doesn't make you taller, it makes you overall bigger in every respect, including giving you a bigger head. If you look at a costume file, you'll actually notice that it's listed as "Scale," rather than "Height" and unlike other sliders, it goes from -25 to 25, whereas the other scales go from 0 to 1. It looks like that's just a multiplier for the model's size.|
Originally Posted by Olantern
As I wrote this, it occurred to me- maybe the height slider isn't measuring in feet at all, but in some other unit. Standard-size head height, maybe?
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A "heads" scale assumes that people's heads are all roughly the same size and that only their bodies' sizes and proportions change. But in City of Heroes, the proportion between the head and the body is written in the actual model and tweakble with the head sliders.
I think the ruler was supposed to measure feet, because a 5'8'' woman on the ruler feels about average height in the world, as compared to building floor height, door width, car size and so forth, but a 5'8'' woman is TINY compared to the "regular" women who walk the streets. So it feels like the world was built to scale for the ruler, but then someone dropped the ball and made giant civilians, and then even more giant villains to tower over the civilians. Considering they were making ridiculously tall NPCs to the point where a comic regarded one of the Wedding Ceremony bouncers as "Mr-I-cant-make-an-npc-less-than-eight-feet-tall."
The newer NPC of the last few Issues - Midnighter Club, Going Rogue lite arcs and so forth, seem to be of the proper scale. But the old ones were just... Ugh. Again, when they were introduced, all the tutors in the university were something like 10 feet tall, and even now they're something like 7'5''.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Heh, nice callback to The Outer Limits. |
Originally Posted by Captain_Electric
This may have more to do with the genre than with the eccentricities of NPC designers. Take a look through the racks in your local comic book store, where out-of-towners like Superman and Thor stand tall around 7 feet, and villains like Doctor Octopus loom over their victims, not beneath. But even "ordinary" heroes like Batman seem to stand taller when suited up, just look at them standing next to sidekicks or damsels in distress.
A human like Captain-America, a most relevant example here, looks MUCH different after being exposed to super serum, which is exactly the kind of situation that's going on with the Council (as told in their bios). Those council members who are really very tall have been exposed to some pretty naughty amounts of serum and experimentation. So, in a nutshell, there is nothing wrong with the game. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. Comic books are controlling the transmission. If they wish to make NPCs taller, they will pump up the super serum. |
Ironically, I was just watching the original show about 5 mins before I read your post.
I've been running through the Arc List in Ouroboros lately, filling it up with stars. A big fraction of these are the older arcs, and now I've reached the 25-29 band. Council. Quite a bit of Council.
Was it ever explained why many of the older mobs vary wildly in height? It's always confused me as to why we've got a way of measuring our characters' heights, but then once they enter Paragon City of the Etoile Isles, every concept of height is thrown out of the window. My namesake's at around 5'10", and only the smallest of Council soldiers seem to be at around his height. Most of them stand at a mighty 8' or so.
I was curious about what the forum community knew about any past explanations of the strange heights, and what they thought about the idea of height being standardised across the board. Scaling some of the older mobs to be a more realistic height to match up with the player scales we see before we even first enter the game. Alternatively, having the player height chart relabeled to be more fitting to the city. Is it too late in the game now for those with the power to make such a change, or do you feel it would be welcomed?