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When you have to say it's possible by cheating it's an admittance that it is might as well be impossible. I mean you and I could sit in a room writing billion digit numbers for eons and given infinity there is a possibility that one day one day one of us might write the same number that the other had at one time, but then we're not talking about that...we're talking about writing the same number at the same time and that would take an infinity of infinities... and when you get that low, you've lost any credibility to say that it is possible in any sense of the practical usage of the word.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
Your odds and probability mean nothing when dealing with infinite possible universes. With infinity as the result, the odds are certain that at least one universe fills the requirements.
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If you feel that stories about magic are inherently inexplicable, illogical and contrary to having fact-based plots, then you are already lost. Magic, along with super-science, implausible mutations, aliens and basically any fiction you make up is governed by whatever internal rules are set in it by the author. If the author started by saying: "Your life is just a dream. The real world is controlled by robots." then this is an explanation and a "fact" which you will need to work with if you want to make sense of the universe in question.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
You said it was easier to explain and then said it's magic. Magic is unexplained. That is contradictory and thus nonsense.
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In fact, applying real-world physics to movies, stories and games is often counter-productive to the actual story, as most of anime is a pretty good example to. Little of what goes on in your typical fiction anime is in the slightest realistic, but as long as it doesn't contradict ITSELF, who cares?
The only "facts" you have to work with in any fictional work are the facts the author has stated. Everything else, including real-life science, is subject to contradiction if the author so chooses. I, as the hypothetical author of a hypothetical fictional work regarding the multiverse, say in unambiguous terms that we're dealing with converging realities. If you'd don't like it, you're free to stop reading. But if you don't, then you need to accept this as fact and work backwards to uncover what this means for the various worlds. This makes it easier to explain, because I've explained it in the narrative. "These worlds are very similar because they are converging. I wonder what else will happen to bring them closer?"
Your divergent reality theory suggests that realities started diverging long, long ago, which then puts the weight on you to explain how so many ended up so close to each other anyway, considering how wildly they could have fluctuated. I've no doubt you CAN explain it, but it's still not as easy as it is the other way around where the setting itself gives you the answer, rather than needing a narrator to give you the setting AND explain how it works at the same time.
This is fiction. Everything in fiction is "functional magic" because everything is as it is because the author said so. It's a question of writing skill that determines who can pull what off, but if utter nonsense like Divergence Even can make sense, then there's a lot of leeway.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I keep on forgetting that this is the internet.
If you want believe your nonsense that's great.
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It's not cheating. You, personally, are insistent that something that doesn't actually exist has to follow the rules you want. Your view is rigid and narrow and simply does not apply to all, or even most, previous fictional uses. THAT'S "cheating".
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Durakken still insists: When you have to say it's possible by cheating it's an admittance that it is might as well be impossible. |
Dec out.
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Um... Believing my own nonsense is the very foundation of fiction.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
I keep on forgetting that this is the internet.
If you want believe your nonsense that's great. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And, actually, that's true - trying to insist that rules the fictional universe in question has never established MUST be true IS cheating, because no-one outside the authors (in this case the developers) has the right to claim either way.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
It's not cheating. You, personally, are insistent that something that doesn't actually exist has to follow the rules you want. Your view is rigid and narrow and simply does not apply to all, or even most, previous fictional uses. THAT'S "cheating".
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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/e golfclap|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I graduated applied mathematics. I'm well aware of ******** theoretical constructs of higher-dimension space. They're all about as boring as they sound.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
When you have to say it's possible by cheating it's an admittance that it is might as well be impossible.
... an infinity of infinities... and when you get that low, you've lost any credibility to say that it is possible in any sense of the practical usage of the word. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
In fact, applying real-world physics to movies, stories and games is often counter-productive to the actual story, as most of anime is a pretty good example to. Little of what goes on in your typical fiction anime is in the slightest realistic, but as long as it doesn't contradict ITSELF, who cares?
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This is an angel. Who is an assassin. From the future. Who bludgeons a 13-year old boy to death with a spiked bat. Then revives him. With the same bat.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I'm... Glad I never watched that |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
This is an angel. Who is an assassin. From the future. Who bludgeons a 13-year old boy to death with a spiked bat. Then revives him. With the same bat.
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But then, I saw a lot of Soul Eater, which kind of makes up for it, I guess. That's kind of why I like anime so much, though - even when it doesn't make sense, it still makes sense. And anime writers and especially artists don't seem to be in any way restricted by concepts like good taste, modesty, restraint or marketability. Sure, it produces a LOT of crap (I still have nightmares about Puni Puni Poemi...), but it also produces a lot of VERY inspiring, very original, very fun work.And I'd avoid going the "yeah but anime sucks" route, ye potential anime-haters. Especially when it comes to weird anime, because Miyazaki's Spirited Away actually won an Oscar once upon a time, and that's... Pretty weird. And also impossible.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Did it really? Personaly I like Nausiaa and Castle in the Sky more but that's inrelvent.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm... Glad I never watched that
snip And I'd avoid going the "yeah but anime sucks" route, ye potential anime-haters. Especially when it comes to weird anime, because Miyazaki's Spirited Away actually won an Oscar once upon a time, and that's... Pretty weird. And also impossible. |
What is relevant to this here topic is...
Noein
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"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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That was stated in the first novel but every other source of lore (second novel, comics, in game lore, and Manticore's lore thread) contradict it.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
Isn't there lore claiming the Greek Gods were the result of a similar opening at one point, or is that just speculation?
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The entire "box" thing (which is never even said to be Pandora's) is Discontinuity as far as I'm concerned. It's never been mentioned outside of the one book and it's not consistent with much of the backstory.
It's also completely [censored] stupid.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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But it does help explain the explosion of superheroes around the time of WWII.
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Originally Posted by Venture
The entire "box" thing (which is never even said to be Pandora's) is Discontinuity as far as I'm concerned. It's never been mentioned outside of the one book and it's not consistent with much of the backstory.
It's also completely [censored] stupid. |
I find it very interesting that he only dimension (we know of) where Statesman is good is Primal earth. And that Primal earth, as far as we know, is the only dimension that Recluse exists in.
I'm really hoping for a "I wasn't quite dead!" in Praetoria. Who knows? Maybe he's lurking around the resistance, or maybe he leads the Syndicate.
Correct me if Im wrong but, Pandoras box was the source of all superhero power correct? And whenever it is opened a new surge of power is distributed throughout the world?
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It is possible for both to be true. It could be that the gods have no physical form and/or cannot exist in the physical plane without a body, or those particular gods can't, and thus whenever you hear about them they are always incarnates, but they are also the god as well.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
That was stated in the first novel but every other source of lore (second novel, comics, in game lore, and Manticore's lore thread) contradict it.
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Originally Posted by Venture
The entire "box" thing (which is never even said to be Pandora's) is Discontinuity as far as I'm concerned. It's never been mentioned outside of the one book and it's not consistent with much of the backstory.
It's also completely [censored] stupid. |
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Originally Posted by Shadowclone
Correct me if Im wrong but, Pandoras box was the source of all superhero power correct? And whenever it is opened a new surge of power is distributed throughout the world? |
Hence all the woes and the surge of power... AND the HUGE wave of thefts in Paragon City.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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From my understanding...no and yes... Pandoara's Box being opened allowed it to happen, but from what I can tell the opening itself didn't do anything besides allow things to happen or activate the things that already happened. For example part of the story of the back story of Ms. Liberty talks about her mother and grandmother and about the Girdle of Hera which leaks power and is the reason for so many Supers existing in Paragon City.
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Originally Posted by Shadowclone
I find it very interesting that he only dimension (we know of) where Statesman is good is Primal earth. And that Primal earth, as far as we know, is the only dimension that Recluse exists in.
I'm really hoping for a "I wasn't quite dead!" in Praetoria. Who knows? Maybe he's lurking around the resistance, or maybe he leads the Syndicate. Correct me if Im wrong but, Pandoras box was the source of all superhero power correct? And whenever it is opened a new surge of power is distributed throughout the world? |
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Technically, no. The Box is less a power source and more of a power sink. While closed the Box drains "potential" from the world, storing it, opening the box returns the world to its natural "super" state.
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Originally Posted by Shadowclone
Correct me if Im wrong but, Pandoras box was the source of all superhero power correct?
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DESTROY THE BOX!|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
Technically, no. The Box is less a power source and more of a power sink. While closed the Box drains "potential" from the world, storing it, opening the box returns the world to its natural "super" state.
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But seriously though, one of my own personal wanks has been that the Box doesn't even do that, opening it simply removes a "block" in the human mind (and I do mean human since there are quite a few demons that have been around for a long time in City of Verse) that basically gives us our sense of "Reality" in other words, what can and cannot be done, also allowing us to more easily perceive things that fall outside of our views of "reality".
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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No they can't. In Web of Arachnos the Three Sisters claim there are no gods, so in you're scenario they were wrong.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
It is possible for both to be true. It could be that the gods have no physical form and/or cannot exist in the physical plane without a body, or those particular gods can't, and thus whenever you hear about them they are always incarnates, but they are also the god as well.
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and just for quick refrance, from the lore thread:
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Question: What happened to the Greek gods in the CoH lore? Were they real beings of supernatural power or people who were lucky enough to find the well and gain powers and were immortal for a few centuries until they just faded away? And if that be the case does that mean Statesman's power is temporary as well? Answer: In the CoH universe the gods of the Greek and other pantheons are real beings of great power. In ancient times they took a much more active role in mortal affairs until their actions and conflicts threatened to destroy the world itself. Pacts were made, oaths were given, and accords were reached. Statesman and other Incarnates are one representation of these agreements and serve as the avatars of the gods. Their powers are not temporary and in most cases are no longer even directly dependent on the gods themselves. Although what would happen to something like Statesmans Lightning of Zeus power if Zeus were to somehow be eliminated thankfully remains an unanswered question. Most of the gods agreed to operate through chosen champions instead of manifesting directly. Of course some of the gods are unwilling to be bound by any such agreements and threaten this delicate balance. Even some mortals refuse to abide by the ancient covenants as is in evidence with the servants of the Banished Pantheon. |
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I have no idea what the book actually says as I haven't read it.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
No they can't. In Web of Arachnos the Three Sisters claim there are no gods, so in you're scenario they were wrong.
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My response was to the idea that the greek gods were incarnates and not actual gods.
Not that gods didn't exist at all.
Also the "three sisters", the furies, are gods themselves which automatically discredits their statements.
"God" (in the context of the old pantheonic gods) can very much be a function of perspective anyway. In much the same way as the old "any sufficiently advanced technology can be viewed as magic" saw. Maybe the Three Sisters don't consider themselves and their peers "gods", but the ancient Greeks did.
Dec out.
Gods, in CoH, are specifically nature spirits that evolved beyond control of the elements and need worship and devotion from mortals.
Nature spirits i assume is a more shinto idea, because Nature spirits in greek came from the gods... So...
A god is a manifistation of something in nature that has reached a point that their existence does not tie them to the elements themselves, but require worship* as a food source/power source.
This could be through something like getting a physical body... hence why the Banished Pantheon was defeated and put down so easily once their spirits were removed from their bodies.
In other words a god is a nature spirit that finds away to posess a physical body. Doing so allows them access to divine powers and to do this they worship*.
Also if we're taking mythology as accurate to some degree Nature Spirits became gods and then when they had off spring some were gods or demigods while others became nature spirits and that makes a bit of sense...
And historically it is stated that these gods introduced themselves and commanded worship of people as an alliance, not as some sort of obey me or else.
Considering this... >.> I'm not gonna go there ^.^
* Worship is not accurate. It could be said that the gods feed off emotional energy or something like that as Leghubu's pantheon discovers fear is a more potent source... however the other gods don't agree with doing it that way.
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What's there is taken from Web of Arachnos, which is unfortunate because it wasn't a particularly good book and parts of it (including the box) don't jive with the game. But I guess we're stuck with it now.
| Go look at Recluse's Bio. I actually was annoyed at the fact that people kept on talking about this nonsensical thing called the Pandora Box and all my searches for the most part led me down dead ends, but in Recluse's Bio on the site it gives a much better recounting of what happened to Cole and himself in that time period. And a lot of Cole's information in his early days comes from Recluse's bio. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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The box does jive with the game and why do you think that it was taken from Web of Arachnos rather than it being the source and Web of Arachnos expounding on what was there?
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Originally Posted by Venture
What's there is taken from Web of Arachnos, which is unfortunate because it wasn't a particularly good book and parts of it (including the box) don't jive with the game. But I guess we're stuck with it now.
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"and easier to explain why Earth seems to exist and kind of be the same in so many this way."
That is utter nonsense.
If it weren't it would be the favored hypothesis.
You said it was easier to explain and then said it's magic. Magic is unexplained. That is contradictory and thus nonsense.