BTW, here are the builds for my toons, in case you're interested.
brute
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.704
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Magnus Black: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Willpower
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(3), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(7), ResDam-I(15), ResDam-I(15), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(17), Heal-I(21)
Level 2: Mind Over Body -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17), RctvArm-ResDam(19), RctvArm-EndRdx(19)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(13), Heal-I(21)
Level 6: Boxing -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(39), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 8: Siphon Life -- Nictus-Heal(A), Nictus-Heal/HP/Regen/Rchg(9), Nictus-Acc/Heal(9), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def(23), S'dpty-EndRdx(23)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- H'zdH-Heal/EndRdx(A), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(25), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Mrcl-Heal(31), DarkWD-ToHitDeb(31), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(31)
Level 18: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 20: Quick Recovery -- Efficacy-EndMod(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(34), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(36)
Level 22: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(37), Heal-I(37)
Level 24: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(37), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(39), P'Shift-End%(39)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(27), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(27), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(29), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg(29)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def(36), S'dpty-EndRdx(36)
Level 30: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), RctvArm-ResDam(46), RctvArm-EndRdx(46)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(33), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 35: Weave -- S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46), S'dpty-Def(50), S'dpty-EndRdx(50)
Level 38: Strength of Will -- ResDam-I(A)
Level 41: Gloom -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Darkest Night -- DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(A), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(45), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(45)
Level 47: Dark Consumption -- Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(48), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(48), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(48)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 0: Ninja Run
And MM (the other MM is the same build. I don't have the build for the SS/WP brute)
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.704
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Violent Pete: Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Thugs
Secondary Power Set: Dark Miasma
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Call Thugs -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(3), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(3), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), BldM'dt-Acc(5), BldM'dt-Dmg(7)
Level 1: Twilight Grasp -- Nictus-Heal/HP/Regen/Rchg(A), Nictus-Acc/Heal(9), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen(9), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 2: Tar Patch -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(7)
Level 4: Darkest Night -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb(A), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(40), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(43), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(43)
Level 6: Equip Thugs -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(43)
Level 10: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 12: Call Enforcer -- Achilles-ResDeb%(A), HO:Nucle(13), HO:Nucle(13), HO:Nucle(15), HO:Cyto(21), HO:Cyto(37)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(15)
Level 16: Shadow Fall -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), RctvArm-ResDam(17), RctvArm-EndRdx(17), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(19), RctvArm-EndRdx/Rchg(19), DefBuff-I(21)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), P'Shift-EndMod(37), P'Shift-End%(50)
Level 22: Fearsome Stare -- SipInsght-ToHitDeb(A), SipInsght-Acc/ToHitDeb(23), SipInsght-Acc/Rchg(23), SipInsght-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(36), SipInsght-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Abys-Acc/Fear/Rchg(36)
Level 24: Gang War -- ExRmnt-+Res(Pets)(A), C'Arms-+Def(Pets)(25), EdctM'r-PetDef(25), SvgnRt-PetResDam(42)
Level 26: Call Bruiser -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(27), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(27), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), BldM'dt-Acc(29), BldM'dt-Dmg(33)
Level 28: Petrifying Gaze -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(33), Lock-Rchg/Hold(33), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(34), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(34), Lock-%Hold(34)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- GftotA-Def(A), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(31), GftotA-EndRdx/Rchg(31), GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 32: Upgrade Equipment -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Howling Twilight -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 38: Dark Servant -- Nictus-Heal/HP/Regen/Rchg(A), Nictus-Acc/Heal(39), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen(39), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/Rchg(39), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(40), DampS-ToHitDeb/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Scorpion Shield -- GftotA-Def(A), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(42), GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42), GftotA-EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 44: Web Envelope -- TotHntr-Acc/Rchg(A), TotHntr-EndRdx/Immob(45), TotHntr-Acc/EndRdx(45), TotHntr-Immob/Acc(45), TotHntr-Acc/Immob/Rchg(46), TotHntr-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Web Cocoon -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(48), Lock-Rchg/Hold(48), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(48), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(50), Lock-%Hold(50)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 0: Ninja Run
Against an AV you typically will desire a -regen debuff. Amongst many ATs and powersets, a /dark MM happens to provide that debuff.
Quote:
May I direct you to a few of my posts please?|
Originally Posted by evil_tim
Is this particular situation an outlier based on the specific attributes of Ghost Widow vs. the AT power sets involved, or would this apply pretty much across the board, in terms of the MM's seeming more powerful than brutes in basic PvE content?
|
Read this first.
Then this.
This is funny.
And you should probably see this.
Suffice to say... it's the norm.
Also, welcome to the club.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Single hard targets are less challenging to teams including mitigation, damage dealing, buffs and debuffs, than to solo characters. A Mastermind is a team in miniature. Hilarity is frequently observed to ensue.
That said, I prefer playing brutes, because being reliant on AI-controlled pets drives me bonkers. MMs are powerful, though, and no mistake.
@SPTrashcan
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Each AT excels at their main role. The main role of a Brute (despite what many raging fanboys say) is that of Aggro Management, which is a sub-category of Crowd Control.
A Brute will shine in the situations where crowd control is needed (such as the last mission of the LRSF, to take the alpha and hold the aggro of the entire +3 Freedom Phalanx) while an MM, being a support AT, will shine in situations where support is needed more.
MMs get a rather unique advantage in that they can benefit from their own buffs, making them a powerhouse by themselves; even superior to poorly coordinated mid sized teams (aka most PuGs). Because of this, MMs have the clear advantage when fighting hard targets in a 1on1
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Each AT excels at their main role. The main role of a Brute (despite what many raging fanboys say) is that of Aggro Management, which is a sub-category of Crowd Control.
|
I would have said that Brute shine on Damage, mostly Melee damage. Tanking/Aggro Management would be secondary or tertiary, depending on the build.
Quote:
| A Brute will shine in the situations where crowd control is needed (such as the last mission of the LRSF, to take the alpha |
Any brute paired with my Bots/FF MM can take alphas, as +33% Def on top of whatever Resists or Defs they have already is usually enough to make them nigh invulnerable.
The important bit here is team work, and being a smart player. Think it out, use what you got effectively. No class is really great on it's own. Put a two or more classes or players together and remarkable things happen. And in a multiplayer game, that's the way it should be. Soloing is possible but teaming is very rewarding.
Quote:
| MMs get a rather unique advantage in that they can benefit from their own buffs, making them a powerhouse by themselves; even superior to poorly coordinated mid sized teams (aka most PuGs). |
This bit I'd definitely agree with.
Quote:
The thing is, while Brutes can do ridiculous amounts of damage, so can pretty much any red AT. A Fire/Kin Corruptor with FS capped damage spamming AoEs, a Fire/Fire Dominator pushing single target damage to levels no one else can attain, a Stalker downing those pesky threatening targets in a couple seconds, etc.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
I would have said that Brute shine on Damage, mostly Melee damage. Tanking/Aggro Management would be secondary or tertiary, depending on the build.
|
Since damage is something everyone can do, and it's not unique to any AT (redside) then what determines your role in a team is that what your AT can do that other ATs can't. Therefore a Corruptor and MM's role is support, Brute is aggro management, Dominator is crowd control, and Stalker is stealth tactics/maneuvers (no, not the leadership pool)
Quote:
I have to take exception with the bolded part. |
Originally Posted by Silverado
Since damage is something everyone can do, and it's not unique to any AT (redside) then what determines your role in a team is that what your AT can do that other ATs can't. Therefore a Corruptor and MM's role is support...
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My MMs rarely support the team (except by accident, for instance, when they're close enough for the FFG or Word of Pain when it goes off).
Also, since corruptors support better, I think MMs need a clearly defined role that's not "support the team." Any idea what that could be? What can MMs do that the others (namely corruptors) cannot?
I don't know. I guess the team role for an MM is to just be a team. No one likes my bots getting in the way, I might as well cut my own path to the boss.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Yes.. without a good debuff some AV's can be a problem. Even for brutes or scrappers. Most mm's have those debuffs and dark mm's have the best!
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Quote:
Fix'd. |
Originally Posted by Liz Bathory
Most mm's have those debuffs and traps mm's have the best!
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Good for you, that's your own personal playstyle and I congratulate you for it, but I'm talking in more general lines. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I have to take exception with the bolded part.
My MMs rarely support the team (except by accident, for instance, when they're close enough for the FFG or Word of Pain when it goes off). Also, since corruptors support better, I think MMs need a clearly defined role that's not "support the team." Any idea what that could be? What can MMs do that the others (namely corruptors) cannot? I don't know. I guess the team role for an MM is to just be a team. No one likes my bots getting in the way, I might as well cut my own path to the boss. |
In my opinion, if you're an MM with buffs and/or heals (FF, Therm, Pain) your teammates should take priority over your pets to get the buffs/heals, especially if you're teaming with SG and Coalition. That's why I categorize them as team support (along with Corruptors, Controllers and Defenders).
I also doubt, with all due respect, that you could cut your way through the Freedom Phalanx in an LRSF by yourself, or even through Romulus Nictus in the ITF (not before the rest of the team caught up anyways)
Quote:
I do admit it happens to be my playstyle, and I also don't make MMs with the single target buffs. On my pain, yeah I'll toss out heals if they're needed, but generally that's not the case as redside ATs tend to be more self sufficient anyway.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Good for you, that's your own personal playstyle and I congratulate you for it, but I'm talking in more general lines.
In my opinion, if you're an MM with buffs and/or heals (FF, Therm, Pain) your teammates should take priority over your pets to get the buffs/heals, especially if you're teaming with SG and Coalition. That's why I categorize them as team support (along with Corruptors, Controllers and Defenders). |
I was just trying to find a specialized role for the reasons mentioned: Corruptors are inherently better at support, and there has to be something MMs can do that corruptors cannot.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Silverado
I also doubt, with all due respect, that you could cut your way through the Freedom Phalanx in an LRSF by yourself, or even through Romulus Nictus in the ITF (not before the rest of the team caught up anyways)
|
My bots/traps can handle damn near anything (The entire Freedom Phalanx being one exception, but I imagine I could find a way to pull them separately) the game has to throw at me. Not as fast as a team of seven others, mind you, but I can handle it. When the seven other people in my PuG TF don't like my bots getting in the way, I just go my own way and we all meet at the boss.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Which is why I deleted my level 32 Bots MM over a year ago.But I sure am loving my DS MM,she is a hoot to play |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
No one likes my bots getting in the way, I might as well cut my own path to the boss.
|
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*May you all be a hero in someone's life.*
Quote:
Depending on the build, everything the other ATs can do but better?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
What can MMs do that the others (namely corruptors) cannot?
|
Tank, do massive damage, crowd control, heal and buff? I know a trap mastermind can do all of that and solo AVs.
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Quote:
That's kind of what I was getting at. There's nothing MMs can do that somebody else can't...|
Originally Posted by JoeKent
Depending on the build, everything the other ATs can do but better?
Tank, do massive damage, crowd control, heal and buff? I know a trap mastermind can do all of that and solo AVs. |
But I don't think there's anything anyone can do that MMs cannot do just as well.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
MMs are arguably the most powerful AT in the game, but they're far from being "best at everything". Like I said before, each AT has their own role to fullfill|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
That's kind of what I was getting at. There's nothing MMs can do that somebody else can't...
But I don't think there's anything anyone can do that MMs cannot do just as well. |
-MMs can heal, buff and debuff. Do Corruptors and Controllers do it better? sure, but in practice the difference is depreciable
-MMs can tank. Sure, but they have to dip into the Presence pool, and even the aggro management capabilities are rather mediocre compared to a Brute or Tanker
-MMs can control. Sure, there are a few powersets such as /Dark and /Traps that have a fair bit of control, but then again Corruptors and Defenders make better use of those powers, and Dominators and Controllers are the specialists in this field.
-MMs can run off to the boss and make their own way like a Scrapper or Stalker. Sure, but your teammates may object that you stray off and leave them without your sweet buffs/debuffs/heals.
Quote:
MMs support the team by taking out all those pesky MOBs and getting all the objectives for them. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Also, since corruptors support better, I think MMs need a clearly defined role that's not "support the team." Any idea what that could be? What can MMs do that the others (namely corruptors) cannot?
|
No, seriously, there are things MMs do well, but when they aren't doing well, cascade failure can set in pretty fast. I've found it depends a lot on the EB or AV. Most are a breeze, but Fiddlesticks... I mean Calystix, yeah, he's a pain.
MMs are meatshields. That means they aren't as good as holding aggro as a true tank, but they're a heck of a lot better at taking damage than a Brute. So as long as you've got some way to control the aggro, you're good to go. I loved Dechs' post about being dared to charge into an 8 man spawn and taking it on. The audience likely just stood there because they were stunned, but it probably would have been fatal to try and help right at that moment anyway.
An MM supports his team by providing additional manpower, and absorbing damage. THAT is an MM's support role. The Secondary powers are secondary, and primarily intended to support the henchmen. Corruptors support the team directly, MMs support it through their pets.
I think I'll add that while what happens may be similar to, say, a Tanker, how it's done is unique. An MM may not be indispensable to a team, but no AT is really supposed to be, and an MM does introduce a dynamic to a team that is different from any other AT. (Sometimes triggering complaints, like "these pets are in my way!".
)
Quote:
And it's a good thing they're not the best at everything. If at any point in the game any AT is the best at everything, there's a very large problem. They are, as you said, arguably the most powerful, and that's a key point. If it's ever cut and dry, then we've got to worry.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
MMs are arguably the most powerful AT in the game, but they're far from being "best at everything".
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Silverado
MMs can control. Sure, there are a few powersets such as /Dark and /Traps that have a fair bit of control, but then again Corruptors and Defenders make better use of those powers, and Dominators and Controllers are the specialists in this field.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Silverado
MMs can run off to the boss and make their own way like a Scrapper or Stalker. Sure, but your teammates may object that you stray off and leave them without your sweet buffs/debuffs/heals.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I'd like to here from any MMs who've soloed the Mako Patron Arc with the all those KB'ing spouts.
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Quote:
This is the result of -regeneration having more value than raw DPS against AVs. You need roughly 160 DPS to reasonably overcome the regenaration of an AV and take it down over a protracted fight. It's not fast at all. I have a 210 DPS DM/ELA Brute that will still take a bit too long to eliminate AVs.|
Originally Posted by evil_tim
So, my question is this: Is this particular situation an outlier based on the specific attributes of Ghost Widow vs. the AT power sets involved, or would this apply pretty much across the board, in terms of the MM's seeming more powerful than brutes in basic PvE content?
ps I am normally a bigger fan of brutes than MMs, but this scenario has me reconsidering my position. |
Now, that same Brute can run a weaker attack chain by employing an Envenomed Dagger for -250% regeneration, which results in him soloing AVs lickity split.
I've done it on several Masterminds, it's as simple as keeping a leash on your pets and picking where you fight instead of wading in blindly.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
This past weekend I was running my lvl 50 dm/wp brute with a lvl 50 demon/? mm. I was helping him with his patron missions (ghost widow). My brute is modestly IO'd out, his MM had outdated enhancements.
Everything was going fine until we got to the defeat Ghost Widow mission. My brute was able to tank her fairly well, but we couldn't get enough dps to get past her regen. We enlisted the aid of my wife, on her lvl 50 ss/wp brute, and were still unsuccessful.
So I decided to try our lvl 50 thugs/dark mm's. She only has 4 50's, I only have 3, so we didn't have a lot of options, but I thought it would be interesting to try and see what the differences were between the AT's.
Our MM's cleaned GW's clock in about 30 seconds. I was and remain amazed at the result. Perhaps there are other brute builds that could handle other scenarios better than our MM's, but in this one case at least, not only did our MM's do something that our brutes were completely unable to do, they did it with a quickness and ease that just boggled my mind.
Now I know that thugs is somewhat of a special case with the stacked enforcer leadership toggles, and our builds are certainly designed to play to that advantage, but I would still guess there was far less infamy spent on our MM builds than there was on our brutes.
So, my question is this: Is this particular situation an outlier based on the specific attributes of Ghost Widow vs. the AT power sets involved, or would this apply pretty much across the board, in terms of the MM's seeming more powerful than brutes in basic PvE content?
ps I am normally a bigger fan of brutes than MMs, but this scenario has me reconsidering my position.