Farm Builds.
By
Celestial_Lord,
Posted on: 2010-05-26 17:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Until I see some numbers, such as herostat logs, of a Soul Mastery Brute being more effective than a Mu Mastery one I'm not going to respect your opinion. Farming is all about AoE Damage. I really don't comprehend how this is even a debate. You are saying that a single target attack is better than an AoE one. You are saying it has a tiny radius (10) when it is actually bigger than Thunderstrike (7). You are saying Electrifying Fences is a tiny damage (38.4) power when comparing it to Dark Obliteration (43.2). Am I being trolled?
Dark Obliteration
43.2 Damage, 32s Recharge, 1s animation, 15 radius
verse
Ball Lightning
50 Damage, 32s recharge, 1.07 animation, 15 radius
AND
Electrifying Fences
38.4 Damage, 20s recharge, 1.17 animation, 10 radius
I'll gladly switch my Brute from Soul to Mu mastery and compare the two for you 
Here's my numbers with Soul Mastery: *EDIT* These #s are from purple farming - going for the max # of enemies defeated that can drop purples per minute.
Personally, I prefer Soul Mastery for general play. If I wanted to kill huge hordes of enemies, which is farming, I'd switch. I'm kind of curious now how much more effective I'd be with another AoE. Hell, I could take Static Discharge too.
no rly... ur doin it rong
Why are you "farming" with bosses enabled?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you get bosses regardless of your setting once you start hitting x4 or so?
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ur rong|
Originally Posted by Everfree_Fire
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you get bosses regardless of your setting once you start hitting x4 or so?
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Go to an Analyst or Fateweaver and look at the bottom two options. One of them should be "I (don't) want to fight bosses even when solo." or something similar. If you're teaming, however, you will run into bosses, yes. But if you're farming for profit and not PLing...
y r u on a teem/
If you want to farm with teammates, set the mission for whatever settings you feel comfortable with. Then go into the mission (alone) and spawn the entire map. Then invite the other people. That way you don't get bosses and can still farm relatively efficiently.
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If you've set your difficulty to "no bosses", you will get no bosses. What you will get is bosses that have been downscaled to lieutenant damage/hitpoint/mez protection numbers, but with their full set of boss attacks still available.
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Originally Posted by Everfree_Fire
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you get bosses regardless of your setting once you start hitting x4 or so?
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No, you're not being trolled. Yes, I'm saying it has a small radius. Yes, I also think Thunderstrike has a small radius. Blazing Aura has a slightly bigger radius (8) but it also does its full damage to everything in that radius, unlike Thunderstrike and it does it up front unlike Elec Fences which is all DoT.|
Originally Posted by Smurphy
Until I see some numbers, such as herostat logs, of a Soul Mastery Brute being more effective than a Mu Mastery one I'm not going to respect your opinion. Farming is all about AoE Damage. I really don't comprehend how this is even a debate. You are saying that a single target attack is better than an AoE one. You are saying it has a tiny radius (10) when it is actually bigger than Thunderstrike (7). You are saying Electrifying Fences is a tiny damage (38.4) power when comparing it to Dark Obliteration (43.2). Am I being trolled?
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Originally Posted by Smurphy
Dark Obliteration
43.2 Damage, 32s Recharge, 1s animation, 15 radius verse Ball Lightning 50 Damage, 32s recharge, 1.07 animation, 15 radius AND Electrifying Fences 38.4 Damage, 20s recharge, 1.17 animation, 10 radius |
That means the extra BL damage is only hitting the boss(es) or an lt or two.
Secondly, all of EFs damage is over time. If you only look at the base damage numbers, then yes, Dark Obliteration doesn't do much more damage. Except EF does it's damage over 7 seconds. The only thing that lives that long is a boss, in which case you'd be getting more damage out of Gloom.
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Originally Posted by Smurphy
I'll gladly switch my Brute from Soul to Mu mastery and compare the two for you
Here's my numbers with Soul Mastery: *EDIT* These #s are from purple farming - going for the max # of enemies defeated that can drop purples per minute.Personally, I prefer Soul Mastery for general play. If I wanted to kill huge hordes of enemies, which is farming, I'd switch. I'm kind of curious now how much more effective I'd be with another AoE. Hell, I could take Static Discharge too. |
One thing to mention is that when I farm with my Brute, I run the Liberate map, set to +1 or +2x8. That means I've got anywhere from 1-3 bosses in a spawn, so Gloom is very worthwhile to me.
If you're only fighting minions/lts in an environment where you can herd them (like the Search Nemesis Base map) then Fences will be of significantly more benefit, since you're only using AoEs in that kind of scenario.
Running Liberate I unload Footstomp and Dark Oblit first, then beat on the bosses while they're recharging.
Edit: IamLink, fighting bosses is worth it for a Brute because Brutes, especially SS Brutes, have the ST power to kill bosses fast enough to be worthwhile. Add into that the fact that Fakes give stupidly large amounts of inf.
If you're purely going for most recipes/hour generated, yes, you'd be better off running x8 with no bosses. I prefer the extra inf and higher drop rates/chance for a Pool C recipe given I can kill bosses fast.
Edit 2: the negative rep was extraordinarily petty of you, Smurphy. Well done.
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I applaud your attempts at rationalizing, but your methods aren't agreed as the most efficient. Post a Herostats and if we're wrong, we're wrong. The Smurphy posted 19 minutes of data. That's well outside the margin of luck. If you can boast significantly larger numbers, then prove it...
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fixt
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Originally Posted by macskull
SS/Fire/Broke Bile Spray or go home.
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Actually, several people in this thread have agreed they prefer Soul over Mu.|
Originally Posted by IamLink
I applaud your attempts at rationalizing, but your methods aren't agreed as the most efficient.
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Originally Posted by IamLink
Post a Herostats and if we're wrong, we're wrong. The Smurphy posted 19 minutes of data. That's well outside the margin of luck. If you can boast significantly larger numbers, then prove it...
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I'm interested myself to see how the numbers compare.
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Several people in this thread would also say that Alexander Hamilton was a president. Just because you know it to be true doesn't mean it is. Prove it with data that we can review- not anecdotal evidence.
Nice stealth edit. =p
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So you don't think it can perform better than the time-tested option, but you think it performs better...? Your rationalizations and retreats are filled with statements like this.| For the record, I've not once boasted "significantly larger numbers". I have simply said that I think Soul is more effective than Mu for farming and said why. |
Also, negative rep ftw. Only wish it wasn't due to speaking logically. =/ I could pick apart every whole in your logic and presumptions, but I'm not going to. Post the data or gtfo. =p Don't deflate your claim when someone asks you to prove it. That's just tacky.
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I already said I will. I've also provided more than anecdotal evidence. I've said why the numbers for EF as a damage dealing power are misleading as well as explained why, numerically (radius, -KD, DoT nature), I think it's not a good power for farming. |
Originally Posted by IamLink
Several people in this thread would also say that Alexander Hamilton was a president. Just because you know it to be true doesn't mean it is. Prove it with data that we can review- not anecdotal evidence.
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Originally Posted by IamLink
So you don't think it can perform better than the time-tested option, but you think it performs better...? Your rationalizations and retreats are filled with statements like this.
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Originally Posted by IamLink
Also, negative rep ftw. Only wish it wasn't due to speaking logically. =/ I could pick apart every whole in your logic and presumptions, but I'm not going to. Post the data or gtfo. =p Don't deflate your claim when someone asks you to prove it. That's just tacky.
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I'm not deflating anything. As I said, I do think Soul can perform better than Mu mastery. My statement was just to say that I've never boasted significantly better numbers, only that they would be better.
If my numbers come up better, but only barely then I will be happy to acquiesce that I'm wrong about Soul performing better.
I've already said I'll post the numbers when I'm able to. You say you can do all kinds of things, but so far all you've done is thump your chest while standing behind Smurphy.
If you can pick apart every hole in my logic and presumptions, please do. It would be very enlightening and I am more than happy to be proved wrong.
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1-50 nets you between 200 and 300m inf if you sell your stuff at the BM, staying in SG mode the whole way. A level 50 shouldn't be on SOs except by choice because any level 50 should have enough money to afford frankenslotting and maybe even a few set IOs.
| Maybe because we don't have the inf to work with IOs, or we want more for certain specialized builds we are planning? I have plans (sort of) to perma-dom a Fire/fire dom, and I certainly don't have the infamy to do this, so I'd be farming with a MM who is mostly running SOs...And is this somehow wrong? |
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Growing one head of lettuce is still farming. Fighting one boss is at a time is still farming.|
Originally Posted by Smurphy
If you are fighting one boss at a time you aren't farming.
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Anything (in game) is farming if you defeat it over and over again. Quantity is irrelevant.
currently reading: A Mighty Fortress (David Weber)
I use a spines/DA scrapper and yes I farm with bosses on. I have an open map type mission I got around lvl 48? (maybe 49 can't remember for sure) I do -1x8.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
So for some reason Herostats will monitor prestige/min when I go into SG mode, but won't register my inf/min at all, in or out of SG mode.
Ideas?
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By such an absolute definition, doing a single story arc mission is farming (as during the course of most missions, you're going to fight the exact same minions over and over, and possibly lieuts or even bosses if on a team/with rep increased).| Anything (in game) is farming if you defeat it over and over again. Quantity is irrelevant. |
"Doing something repetitive" is the basis for most stat-driven games ; that makes quantity, or scale, very important when discussing farming. If you don't draw a line somewhere, the word is meaningless and doesn't serve its purpose.
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For the most part, I agree with this about farming being all about AoE damage. However, if you are farming something say Liberate TV with bosses enabled then you are SERIOUSLY underestimating how helpful Gloom is with increasing your overall kill speed.|
Originally Posted by Smurphy
Until I see some numbers, such as herostat logs, of a Soul Mastery Brute being more effective than a Mu Mastery one I'm not going to respect your opinion. Farming is all about AoE Damage. I really don't comprehend how this is even a debate.
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Will you be posting your stats with Mu Mastery? Also, what exactly were you farming and with what settings? It's hard to do an accurate comparison if everyone is farming something different.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
I like to farm with my Elec/Fire blaster. Go ahead and laugh you Elec/ haters. I know it's not fire/fire but the large radius of the electric primary helps out on the BM map where the spawn is sometimes spread out. I also really like having the ability to jump into the center of the mob and unleashing my AOE's without having to line up any stinking cones. It only takes 3 quick recharging AOE's to kill all the minions. Sparky and I can then finish off the lt's very quickly.
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I negative repped him. Maybe he thought mine was yours? Though, I do try to sign them all. I use the feature by positive/negative repping for "this post does(n't) contain useful information". He got negative repped because several of his posts contain no useful information.|
Originally Posted by Silas
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Fun Fact: I've not actually neg-repped you. I think neg-repping people because you disagree with them to be, if I may borrow a word, tacky. |
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Originally Posted by Ocularis
Growing one head of lettuce is still farming. Fighting one boss is at a time is still farming.
Anything (in game) is farming if you defeat it over and over again. Quantity is irrelevant. |
I don't care what map you want to do or what you want to declare the map farming for. I'm even going to help get you numbers for Soul Mastery. The greatest thing about these debates isn't that one side wins or loses... its that we get numbers, can all change to what is best, and everybody wins.
I did Liberate with Soul on +0x8 no bosses and I was impressed. I stopped after 12 minutes. I got 323k Inf per minute, 44.78 enemies defeated per minute. I was up around 350k at one point (after a Rage Crash), not sure what I was doing wrong to make it tail off so much. First time I ran Liberate in a long time. Though the tiny box in Herostats will only show Prestige or whatever the Inf/Minute should be recorded. Show your prestige a minute, show your Inf a minute. Then, I believe, we can just double the Inf/Minute.
So, four? categories...
Farming for Purples
Soul: 44.78 Enemies per minute. (323k Inf/Minute) +0/x8 No Bosses, Liberate
Mu: 48.87 Enemies per minute. (359k Inf/Minute) +0/x8 No Bosses, Liberate
Farming for Inf/Prestige/XP
Soul: 491k Inf/Minute (25.84 defeats) +3/x8 No Bosses, Liberate
Mu: 515k Inf/Minute (27.8 defeats) +3/x8 No Bosses, Liberate
Farming for Purple w/Bosses
Soul: 31.90 Enemies per minute. (322k Inf/Minute) +0/x8 Bosses, Liberate
Mu: 37.43 Enemies per minute. (348k Inf/Minute) +0/x8 Bosses, Liberate
Farming for Inf/Prestige/XP w/Bosses
Soul: 415.7k Inf/Minute (17.85 Defeats) +2/x8 Bosses, Liberate
Mu: 443.2k Inf/Minute (18.01 Defeats) +2/x8 Bosses, Liberate
Bosses and ? Do you try to maximize the Inf/Prestige/XP or enemies killed with bosses? Or do we need 4 categories and bosses with both of the above?
*EDIT* Feel free to pick a different map, different settings, whatever.
**Edit#2** Ok, that can't be right. I just ran at +2/x8, no bosses, Soul... and got 424k/minute Inf which I expected. But I got 72.88 Villains defeated per minute. That can't be right. Rerunning that one. -- Apparantly the reset button resets Herostats settings and doesn't properly reset Herostats statistics.
Well I can only provide numbers for Soul since that is what my Brute is currently spec'd into. I'll post some numbers when I have time.
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Does it now? The *only* reason I've gotten that much inf on either of my fifties is mostly because of lucky drops/merit usage *after* I hit 50. I don't expect any of my other toons to hit that amount when they hit fifty unless I end up just as lucky with them.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
1-50 nets you between 200 and 300m inf if you sell your stuff at the BM, staying in SG mode the whole way. A level 50 shouldn't be on SOs except by choice because any level 50 should have enough money to afford frankenslotting and maybe even a few set IOs.
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This might've been true back when Bile Spray was actually broken and you could make MA maps that actually took advantage of that fact, but now both it and those MA maps have been fixed, so it's just a really clunky and subpar power (hello, target cap at 10 instead of 16 because it's a cone). I haven't respec'd my SS/Fires out of Leviathan yet because I'm too damn lazy, but when I get back into doing serious farming/PLing I certainly will be taking them back to Mu Mastery.|
Originally Posted by Psycho Jas
fixt
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I mean, yeah, when you can kill 200 enemies at once with a cone power because you can fit that many into its area of effect and it doesn't have a target cap, that's great. But once you can't do something like that, a cone power becomes really bad because you have to maneuver to line it up for the best effectiveness.
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That's very strange. You can make that kind of money very easily. It's more an accretion effect, though, where the time you spend just playing the game gives you things that you can turn into money subsequently. |
Originally Posted by Everfree_Fire
Does it now? The *only* reason I've gotten that much inf on either of my fifties is mostly because of lucky drops/merit usage *after* I hit 50. I don't expect any of my other toons to hit that amount when they hit fifty unless I end up just as lucky with them.
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- Never spend money on the tailor, use freebie costume changes instead.
- Whenever you get a recipe, check to see what it sells for crafted. If it takes no rare salvage to make, craft it and post it.
- Don't buy SOs at level 22. Frankenslot yourself - it costs about the same amount and gives you about the same enhancement bonuses - and thereafter sell everything you get.
Just some general usage tips.
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That would be what I don't do. To me, Frankenslotting is more effort than it's really worth. I don't aim for high-cost builds (since I don't earn money quickly), so I tend to not worry so much. By the time I start planning builds, the toons tend to be high enough that they can earn the money themselves...|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Don't buy SOs at level 22. Frankenslot yourself - it costs about the same amount and gives you about the same enhancement bonuses - and thereafter sell everything you get.
Just some general usage tips. |
But seriously, 200-300m? I don't think frankenslotting could possibly make a difference of nearly 200m.
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1) Save Knockout Blow for when they are 1/3 life, just before they bubble. Use it then.
2) AoE attacks are unaffected by Nemesis Vengeance. Wait for a Fake to land if it survives the KO blow, then use Foot Stomp, Electric Fences and Ball Lightning. Electric Fences only need to hit 3 targest to exceed the damage of Gloom and is only slightly under Gloom damage when hitting 2.
Gloom also helps when you're fighting +3s, (what I run if I run with a Kin), since KO at 1/3 health won't kill a +3 Fake.
Fences does about the same damage as Gloom if you hit 2 targets but it also cancels all KB/KD.
Electric Fences + Ball Lightning are the two AoEs in Mu that you want on a Farmer. Neither Fences nor Ball Lightning are cones.
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