Lost - SERIES FINALE! - 5/23/10
By
Adamh_77,
Posted on: 2010-05-23 05:14 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Thats actually kind of explained if we assume that all/most of the rules on the Island were actually created and applied by Jacob. In fact, maybe the smoke monster was created by jacobs guilt of killing his brother. Smokey is what he imagined.
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Originally Posted by Zikar
The other problem is that they both had the same goal, the leave the island. He was also bound by the same rules, like not hurting Jacob.
Not to mention all the other consistent things. |
Always remember, we were Heroes.
Eh, nah. Doesn't seem likely. Such a thing wasn't even hinted at.
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I'm not so sure. We were shown that Jacob/his brother really didn't know much about the Island, we were told that at least some of the properties of the Island were down to how Jacob ran things, we were shown that switching the light off only seemed to destroy the Island and turn smokey human (so, if Smokey had to turn the light off to leave the island, and thus would be human, how much of a threat to the world could he be? but it was an absolute threat to Jacobs world, since the island was all he had) |
Originally Posted by Zikar
Eh, nah. Doesn't seem likely. Such a thing wasn't even hinted at.
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So, given that we aren't given any other explinations, its entirely possible that the magic of the Island allowed Jacob to control reality on the Island (and have some influence outside it too), and that the whole thing with the MiB was just his psyche fighting itself and that everyone brought to the Island were just people pulled into his own little fantasy world. That, I believe, explains everything we saw and were told. Might not be the right answer, but its an answer
Always remember, we were Heroes.
I honestly think my TARDIS idea is more likely...
It seems pretty clear cut that MiB and Smokey are one and the same, simply because of motivation.
And the fact that both he and the show keeps telling us this.
Sure they could be different and Smokey is just taking on MiBs personality, but that isn't hinted at... and with the series ending, it'd be a silly idea to have a false explanation, knowing the show will be ending. I think they would have rather just not explained it at all, rather than lying to fans knowing they'll never be able to give the actual explanation within the show.
But... (taking MiB to be jacobs brother up til the point he died and Smokey to be everything after the smoke monster appears)
We saw MiB die, his body is in the cave. So, Smokey isn't MiB in a physical sense. He has the motivations of MiB (or what jacob remembers MiBs motivations to be?)... but, seemingly unchanging. And he also ends up following a bunch of rules that seem to make no real sense. And who controls the rules? We learn Jacob does.
All we really know is that Jacob thinks Smokey is MiB and Smokey thinks he is MiB, But we are also shown that neither one really knows what everyone assumes they actually do know and neither one seems to have turned out to be right...
I think that sort of view of things actually has something to say about the idea of faith (like the hatch, button thing). Its entirely possible that Jacob (who people essentially worshiped, who ben killed loads of people for and who seemed all powerful and all knowing i.e. god) was just a crazy man with lots of power. Or, maybe he was a chosen one eternally defending the world from the evil that lurks in the heart of man. We never get told which.
So, I tell you that if the light goes out, the world ends. Of course, I could be lying or wrong or a crazy woman who murdered your mother. Do you keep pressing the button?
It was a very cool show
EDIT:
Oh, and do love the TARDIS idea.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
I'm glad someone commented on it 
Also, I do like your idea, and if the show still had a season or two to go I'd file it under "possible explanation". It's just that the show has ended that makes me think it's as simple as we were shown.
The real question in my mind is WHY he turned into Smokey, rather than; did he turn into Smokey at all.
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I would've guessed the same really, but weirdly the creators did use the midichlorian excuse for the numbers several years ago, but then went on to unveil the Valenzetti Equation more recently. It seems they either changed their mind about it or invented the Equation later.|
Originally Posted by RosaQuartz
My guess is something like: 4. The writers had the Valenzetti Equation in their back pocket and realized that it was a "Midichlorian" thing, so instead of coming up with a better explaination, they changed Hugo's central mystery away from the numbers to the "I see dead people" deal and explained it away with a throwaway line in Season 6.
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I'm not a fan of the DHARMA-oriented answer anyway, as the majority of the numbers' mysteries occur in ways DHARMA couldn't possibly influence.
Likewise, I usually separate on-screen canon from extended canon.
My guess is, the creators just got sick of being asked what the numbers mean and just invented an answer for the fans who really care abotu that sort of thing.
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Actually, the reverse, sorta. Valenzetti Equation came between Seasons 2 and 3. The Midichlorian excuse, I first heard last year. Previously, their answer to the "How will you explain everything?" was along the lines of "We will use pseudoscience (fringe science, heh) to try to explain everything." Which was obviously a misdirect of sorts.|
Originally Posted by _Echoo_
I would've guessed the same really, but weirdly the creators did use the midichlorian excuse for the numbers several years ago, but then went on to unveil the Valenzetti Equation more recently. It seems they either changed their mind about it or invented the Equation later.
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On the other hamd. this season they did adress the Numbers as being Numbers assigned to the Candidates, so they did end up explaining something they previously said didn't matter or weren't going to.
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
A report card: 50 Questions Lost Needed to Answer from io9. Looks like they didn't score too well. 
I find it fascinating to read stuff like this, to see what limitations others place on their expectations before the show can fulfill them.
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Thing is, everyone had a different list of things that HAD to be answered. Some questions overlapped, of course, but it just goes to show you the show would never be able to please everyone |
Originally Posted by _Echoo_
A report card: 50 Questions Lost Needed to Answer from io9. Looks like they didn't score too well.
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I like people who said the Hurleybird question had to be answered. Lost already "answered" that in the Season 2 finale, via Hurley remarking upon and Sawyer mocking him about. In other words, Lost was saying "That isn't even a question!"
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
Why is it people have such a hard time understanding what the Dharma Initiative was?
Bunch of hippy scientists studying the properties of the island (and other experiments) to try and save the world. It's not that cryptic.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Aside from the previously mentioned counter-points (Jacob knowing it was his brother and Smokey being bound by the rules, as well as having MiB's desire to leave), death of the body has been shown during the series to not equal death of the mind or soul. As Miles has said, "That's just meat." And MiB blames Jacob for stealing his body. |
Originally Posted by GATE-keeper
I don't think MiB became the Smoke Monster. I think Smokey was somehow locked in the Cave o' Light, and then when Jacob tossed MiB into the Cave, it somehow released Smokey. But we clearly saw MiB's body separately from Smokey (when Jacob placed MiB and his mother in the Adam-and-Eve cave). For whatever reason, when Smokey needed a human form, he chose MiB's - until Jacob died, then Smokey chose to use Locke's form. We also saw Locke's body separately from Smokey's.
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The more you take the shows established facts into account, the more probable it becomes that turning MiB into the Smoke monster was the Light's reaction to the rules set in place by Mother to keep the brothers from killing each other.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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And they may have been brought to the Island via Jacob (I believe the name "Goodspeed" was a name of the cave wall).|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Why is it people have such a hard time understanding what the Dharma Initiative was?
Bunch of hippy scientists studying the properties of the island (and other experiments) to try and save the world. It's not that cryptic. |
I do like what someone in this thread suggested (I forgot who, so I apologize): Dharma represented the science side of "saving the world" to Jacob's faith side. Is it any coincidence that Dharma found a way of controlling the Smoke Monster, in terms of the sonic fence and maybe even building the Barracks ontop of the Plug of Smokey Ben has used?
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
Michael Emerson to narrate Science special "Creating Synthetic Life"
Great, as if Emerson's voice wasn't creepy enough, now he is going to do the VO for something about creating artificial life?
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
By the way, I dunno if this is the same with anyone else...
but did anyone else laugh whenever Ben got beaten up? My family always chuckled when that happened.
It's not that we have it in for the character, it just seemed like every episode someone was punching him in the face, it was almost like a running joke
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Also, like one of the replies on the link says, a lot of the questions are answered, just not by Basil Exposition showing up and saying "This is the answer to question x!" The example they give is that the fact that a polar bear is on the island is answered by there also being bear cages on the island.
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Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan
Thing is, everyone had a different list of things that HAD to be answered. Some questions overlapped, of course, but it just goes to show you the show would never be able to please everyone
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Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I hope they release a DVD/Blu-ray called 'Lost: Answers' that's just the creators and writers sitting in front of a camera and going through the list of odd-ball things that were never directly discussed on the show. That would be absolutely hilarious and awesome at the same time.
I thought the last episode(s) sucked. The last 3 or so were just sub-par to the rest of the series.
The last episode seemed like scraps just thrown together while someone had to go poo... and needed to hurry it up.
I understood everything, but was greatly disappointed.
The best moments of the final episode were when the lovers found each other.
The whole death thing just pissed me off. What a stupid way to end it. Just stupid.
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As Michael Emerson said, he believed he was in a comedy sometimes |
Originally Posted by Zikar
By the way, I dunno if this is the same with anyone else...
but did anyone else laugh whenever Ben got beaten up? My family always chuckled when that happened. It's not that we have it in for the character, it just seemed like every episode someone was punching him in the face, it was almost like a running joke |
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
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I'll buy that for a dollar. |
Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan
The one counter to that is Smokey took on more and more of John Locke's personality the longer he stayed in his form.
Smokey could have been MiB's avatar for so long, he essentially became MiB. |
But ... "Smokey becoming MiB" and "MiB becoming Smokey" are mutually exclusive
"Everybody wants to change the world, but nobody wants to change themselves." -Tolstoy
I prefer the "Valenzetti Solution" as a more elegant answer to the question of "what are The Numbers."
(I should note that - to me, at least - The Numbers are 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42. The other 354 are just integers.)
The solution of "they're just Jacob's candidates" leaves too many unanswered questions. Primarily, what's so significant about 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42 compared to the other 354 integers? It can't be that they represent Jacob's final 6, because 4-Locke was not one of the final six candidates but 51-Austen was.
"Everybody wants to change the world, but nobody wants to change themselves." -Tolstoy
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They were the final 6 candidates that Jacob thought would want to take the job. While he said Kate could still take over, he did cross her off for becoming a mother.|
Originally Posted by GATE-keeper
I prefer the "Valenzetti Solution" as a more elegant answer to the question of "what are The Numbers."
(I should note that - to me, at least - The Numbers are 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42. The other 354 are just integers.) The solution of "they're just Jacob's candidates" leaves too many unanswered questions. Primarily, what's so significant about 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42 compared to the other 354 integers? It can't be that they represent Jacob's final 6, because 4-Locke was not one of the final six candidates but 51-Austen was. |
And 51 is 15, backwards
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
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My feeling is that the producers/writers just ran out of time and decided to go with a hand wave as an explanation for the Numbers. That very lame excuse just convinces me more. |
Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan
They were the final 6 candidates that Jacob thought would want to take the job. While he said Kate could still take over, he did cross her off for becoming a mother.
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If becoming a parent disqualified one from becoming a candidate, then the Kwon's would have been disqualified as well.Edit: Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed Lost and consider it the best TV series I've ever viewed. But Bad Robot Productions does have a tendency to run out of gas at the end of its productions and has a bad habit of providing answers that leave a lot to be desired. cf: Alias, MI:III, Star Trek. I'm not familiar with Felicity and Fringe, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were the same way.
"Everybody wants to change the world, but nobody wants to change themselves." -Tolstoy
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Ah, but he said mothers, not parents! Techincally, Sawyer is a dad. Which ties into Jacob's mother issues.|
Originally Posted by GATE-keeper
My feeling is that the producers/writers just ran out of time and decided to go with a hand wave as an explanation for the Numbers. That very lame excuse just convinces me more.
If becoming a parent disqualified one from becoming a candidate, then the Kwon's would have been disqualified as well. |
Also, a possible explanation as to why Sun did not travel back to 1977 (other than plot contrivance to keep the Kwons apart): All the candidates were reunited in the past...plus Kate.
I like the Valenzetti Equation and Jacob's Number explanation cause I can fanwank them together: if one of the Numbers changes (as in, another candidate takes over), then the world is DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
Not to mention all the other consistent things.
Smokey could have been MiB's avatar for so long, he essentially became MiB.
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]