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Dual Blades - Quick and dirty:|
Originally Posted by Dromilin
Title says it all...
Im back to the game after a long layoff (stopped not long after Villains) came out so Im not as "up" on some of the new power sets. I do tend to lurk on the boards looking for info before I post but havent seen anything that answers my question. Whats the story... Doesnt seem to be much on them ...and from the kinds of info now being asked for they are certainly not a "favored" power set but I cant find info on why. Is it the re-draw (times 2), is it the base attacks are lower powered as its assumed you will use them in a combo...? Whats going on..? Drom (thinking of starting yet another Alt....a DB/WP brute for solo play) |
Attacks are Fast, but low damage - individually.
No 'Big Earth-shattering Attacks', no big orange numbers. Instead, you have the 'death of a hundred cuts', a steady stream of small, quick attacks - you are a Living DoT.
S/L damage only.
Mitigation, Power-up, De-buffs are all in the Combos.
Set presumes that you will take and use the Combos.
Until or unless you develop high levels of recharge and/or lots of slots, there's not really anything you can skip (except the Taunt). **FYI, this is also true of Willpower, so a very tight build.
First set Designed to use attack chains - so they flow together quickly and are very flashy!
Timing the attack Combos can be a chore and may (slightly) mitigate Rage generation.
Combo 'special effects' require all three attacks in the Combo to Hit a target - more emphasis on Accuracy & To-hit enhancement for effectiveness.
Initial levels - single-target focus, AoEs come in post L30.
That's all I can think of, off the top of my head. I have a half-dozen Dual-Bladers and really enjoy the set.
Be Well!
Fireheart
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Blinding Feint is not a combo and it gives you a power-up. Yes it is part of the Empower combo, but by it self it still gives a damage buff and a To-hit buff. |
Originally Posted by Fireheart
Dual Blades - Quick and dirty:
Attacks are Fast, but low damage - individually. S/L damage only. Mitigation, Power-up, De-buffs are all in the Combos. Set presumes that you will take and use the Combos. Until or unless you develop high levels of recharge and/or lots of slots, there's not really anything you can skip (except the Taunt). **FYI, this is also true of Willpower, so a very tight build. |
Linky for combos
As for the combos you don't really need to get them all. You can try them but after playing Dual blades for some time I found that the only two combos you need are Attack Vitals and Sweep. If you click the link you can see what attack make them up. So you can skip Nimble Slash, but if you like to have that fast attack you might want it.
For my attack chain while lvling up I just did Blinding Feint>Attack Vitals while hasten was up and while it was down I did Blinding Feint>Attack Vitals>Power slice.
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
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You are quite right, Blinding Feint is a mini-Build-Up that lasts for 10 seconds. If you have Enough recharge, you can even stack it.|
Originally Posted by BrokenPrey
Blinding Feint is not a combo and it gives you a power-up. Yes it is part of the Empower combo, but by it self it still gives a damage buff and a To-hit buff.
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The link to ParagonWiki is a great piece of info - I should have included it.
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As for the combos you don't really need to get them all. You can try them but after playing Dual blades for some time I found that the only two combos you need are Attack Vitals and Sweep. If you click the link you can see what attack make them up. So you can skip Nimble Slash, but if you like to have that fast attack you might want it. For my attack chain while lvling up I just did Blinding Feint>Attack Vitals while hasten was up and while it was down I did Blinding Feint>Attack Vitals>Power slice. |
Because you cannot DO 'Attack Vitals' until level 26. And you cannot DO 'Sweep' until level 32. Perhaps, 'Weaken' and 'Empower' (which you can acquire at level 6 and 8) Might be useful? And, as you just said, you cannot chain and re-chain 'Attack Vitals' with 'Blinding Feint', unless you take Hasten (and slot a good bit of Recharge)...
So, maybe my advice was useful after all?
Be Well!
Fireheart
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lets see with what I said you have Power slice, Blinding Feint, Vengeful Slice, Ablating Strike, Typhoon's Edge, all at lvl 18. Now you don't need to use the combos to do good damage. And with 5 attack at lvl 18 I think you can managed that, because that is what most sets have |
Originally Posted by Fireheart
The link to ParagonWiki is a great piece of info - I should have included it.
Umm, so, you are advocating going without the combos until level 26? You started 'leveling up' at level 26 and didn't have to bother with levels 1 through 25? I'm interested in learning how you managed that. |
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| Because you cannot DO 'Attack Vitals' until level 26. And you cannot DO 'Sweep' until level 32. Perhaps, 'Weaken' and 'Empower' (which you can acquire at level 6 and 8) Might be useful? And, as you just said, you cannot chain and re-chain 'Attack Vitals' with 'Blinding Feint', unless you take Hasten (and slot a good bit of Recharge)... |
Also I said you can try them and play around, because I'm not really going to trust anyones advice till I try it myself, and say yes it sucks or wow that is a good attack.
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| So, maybe my advice was useful after all? |
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
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I agree that Nimble Slash isn't the greatest attack and I guess you don't Have To debuff your enemies' Defense and To-Hit with Weaken, to be effective. And if you can't/don't slot up Accuracy in the early levels, then the Combos are a real PITA. Also, by taking all 8 attacks, you may find yourself with nowhere to Put them all in your trays. In fact, my understanding is that the Maximum DPS with Dual Blades ignores the combos entirely.|
Originally Posted by BrokenPrey
lets see with what I said you have Power slice, Blinding Feint, Vengeful Slice, Ablating Strike, Typhoon's Edge, all at lvl 18. Now you don't need to use the combos to do good damage. And with 5 attack at lvl 18 I think you can managed that, because that is what most sets have
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Might be but I didn't find them at all. I find that Nimble Slash is such a bad attack you're hurting your self using it. As both Weaken and Empower both have it, so I don't like them. Empower doesn't do much for a Brute and over all it is not worth it so just using Blinding feint will be find. Also I said you can try them and play around, because I'm not really going to trust anyones advice till I try it myself, and say yes it sucks or wow that is a good attack. |
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| Never said it wasn't I was just adding my own advice. |
Be Well!
Fireheart
After taking my DB/WP Scrapper to 50 in about 3 weeks after the sets came out, I can say I love both sets.
The hardest thing about Dual Blades is learning the Combos, though it's not really any harder than learning anything else in the game. It's just new, and unique.
Apparently, I'm one of the few people who uses ALL the combos in Dual Blades.
My opinions are as follows:
For Dual Blades, pick Nimble Slash as your starting power. Power Slice isn't bad, but the combo that requires it isn't available until you pick up One Thousand Cuts, and that's not available until Level 32. By taking Nimble Slash at creation, and picking up Abalting Strike at 2, and Typhoon's Edge by 6, you can have your very first Combo, Weaken: Nimble Slash -> Ablating Strike -> Typhoon's Edge.
And if you grab Blinding Feint at 8, you'll have your second combo, Empower: Nimble Slash -> Ablating Strike -> Blinding Feint. At this point, you can set up a pretty decent attack chain: Nimble Slash -> Ablating Strike -> Typhoon's Edge (Weaken Combo) -> Brawl -> Nimble Slash -> Ablating Strike -> Blinding Feint (Empower Combo), and start all over.
Personally, I take every power from Dual Blades, and from Willpower, I skip Resurgence and Strength Of Will. Resurgence is an OK Rez power, but I feel you're better off just using an Awaken. And Strength Of Will is a very situational power. I found I almost never used it, so I dumped it.
Dual Blades/Willpower is a pretty decent combination, and it's fun to play. IMO, you can't go wrong with it.
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Wrong. You can grab your first PBAoE, Typhoon's Edge, at level 6. You were right about the set being a blast to play, though.
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Originally Posted by Fireheart
Dual Blades - Quick and dirty:
Attacks are Fast, but low damage - individually. No 'Big Earth-shattering Attacks', no big orange numbers. Instead, you have the 'death of a hundred cuts', a steady stream of small, quick attacks - you are a Living DoT. S/L damage only. Mitigation, Power-up, De-buffs are all in the Combos. Set presumes that you will take and use the Combos. Until or unless you develop high levels of recharge and/or lots of slots, there's not really anything you can skip (except the Taunt). **FYI, this is also true of Willpower, so a very tight build. First set Designed to use attack chains - so they flow together quickly and are very flashy! Timing the attack Combos can be a chore and may (slightly) mitigate Rage generation. Combo 'special effects' require all three attacks in the Combo to Hit a target - more emphasis on Accuracy & To-hit enhancement for effectiveness. Initial levels - single-target focus, AoEs come in post L30. That's all I can think of, off the top of my head. I have a half-dozen Dual-Bladers and really enjoy the set. Be Well! Fireheart |
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DB is usually considered a "mediocre" set because it doesn't have any individual spectacular powers like some other sets and gets easily thrown into the S/L-only bin. If you take a look at this thread you can see that it falls right in the middle of single-target damage potential without considering secondaries and extreme slotting (also notice that it doesn't lag by much from the top contenders except fire), and if you take a look at the pylon times discussion you could see that specific DB builds can juice out extreme single-target DPS in the right circumstances. Many people have also proven time and time again that DB/ toons can be successful AV soloers, so from the high-end perspective, DB is not lacking anywhere.|
Originally Posted by Dromilin
Doesnt seem to be much on them ...and from the kinds of info now being asked for they are certainly not a "favored" power set but I cant find info on why.
Is it the re-draw (times 2), is it the base attacks are lower powered as its assumed you will use them in a combo...? Whats going on..? Drom (thinking of starting yet another Alt....a DB/WP brute for solo play) |
But that's probably not very useful info for you because you'd already know all of it if you were into that kind of thing. So what do Dual Blades offer? From personal experience I can attest that a DB/WP brute is great fun to play. DB has the perhaps most fun animations of all sets, if you're into that kind of thing. All that twirling around really makes you feel that you're constantly doing something and ensures a fluid attack chain experience (for example, I get bored to death with Dark Melee's attack chains).
From the functional perspective, DB don't excel in any single area but are good across the whole board. While they don't have any "big hitters", there aren't any throwaway attacks either as all of them do good damage (except perhaps the first one in post lvl 30 play, but it's like that with all sets). The set offers a nice mix of AoE and ST attacks and performs quite well in both fields. Also, you always have something shiny to pick while leveling up, unlike for example Super Strength where you get Knockout Blow at 8, Rage at 18 and then grind to Foot Stomp at 32. Your first AoE attack opens up at lvl 6.
Next up, DB offers good mitigation in the form of knockdown. Vengeful Slice, available at 18, has a guaranteed knockdown effect on its target, as well as One Thousand Cuts (available at 32) on all of its targets.
Instead of Build Up, you have Blinding Feint. With a proper build, you can perma-doublestack it for a 60% bonus to all damage and 20% to hit bonus.
And finally, there are the combos. You don't have to use them, but their effects are very nice. The first two, Weaken and Empower, have a bad rep. Weaken is ok when you get it, but nothing to write home about - it gives your opponents a slight defense debuff which is nothing special if you slot properly for acc. Empower is nice with that bit of extra damage and to hit beyond a regular Blinding Feint, but when it becomes available you don't have much attacks besides the ones needed for it, limiting its usefulness, and later on Attack Vitals and Sweep are more attractive. You'll get the most mileage out of it between levels 18 (when you get Vengeful Slice) and 26 (when you get Sweeping Strike for Attack Vitals). Speaking of Attack Vitals and Sweep - they rock. Attack Vitals does extra damage, and an attack chain of BF+AV is the highest single-target DPS chain for DB IIRC. Sweep keeps your opponents on their *****, with the initial attack (One Thousand Cuts) causing guaranteed knockdown, and the finishing attack (Typhoon's Edge) causing more guaranteed knockdown as the combo special effect.
So, I'd say the only real downsides of DB are the following: redraw, trickiness of combos and the animation time of One Thousand Cuts. If you hate redraw, you probably won't like DB. If you aren't bothered by it, you won't even notice it. The combos require all three attacks to hit, so you need good accuracy slotting (which should be a given for brutes in general because of fury building) and it's irritating when one of them misses. One Thousand Cuts has an animation time of 3.3 seconds which is a lot, but as with redraw you'll either hate it or won't have any issues with it at all.
Last I checked, using non-attack powers in the middle of combos doesn't disrupt them, but since you intend to play /WP you shouldn't have problems with that anyway.
There's one thing that is worth mentioning for brutes... Blinding Feint isn't as relatively efficient for damage as it is on other ATs, due to Fury.
To match DB scrapper damage on a DB brute, you're going to need to be at 90% Fury (not "eventually", but all the time). In all other cases, using identical powersets 90% Fury brutes are above scrapper damage.
Animation times are also, overall, slow, which might hinder Fury generation for some people (it does for me).
There's also Gloom. It's one of the best attacks brutes can get for DPA, however on a set like DB the efficiency is lowered because of redraw.
These differences are by no means gamebreaking, but it does mean you can't directly draw conclusions from scrapper comparisons. While DB is a great set on scrappers, it lags a bit behind on brutes ; or if you like it phrased differently, it's not a bad set but there's better options, especially as brutes have access to SS, SM and a stronger FM.
This is purely situational. My experiences, your mileage may vary.
I rolled up a Dual Blades/Super Reflexes Brute on a whim to team with a friend. I had just gotten the Martial Arts booster, so I wanted to make him kinda ninja like. I know a stalker is more thematic, but I don't like stalkers, so meh.
I was amazed by how well it did, but it was painful leveling at first. However, once I got it to 28 or so, I was able to respec into a solid DPS build. I was able to chain the Empower and Attack Vitals combos to get some serious DoT going. While DB doesn't have any really hard hits like Knockout Blow or Seismic Smash, it makes up for it with a very steady stream of damage. And it looks cool as hell, no less.
It didn't take too much recharge to obtain that cycle, either. With Hasten up, I'd just use Blinding Feint>Attack Vitals combo, without it, Empower>AV. With just Quickness and proper frankenslotting, it was pretty seamless. I have no doubt that I could have done high enough DPS to take down a "lesser" AV, at least. I never had problems building or maintaining fury, either.
Now, just an FYI, I didn't use Blinding Feint/Empower for the damage buff, because it isn't as valuable on a brute as it is on other ATs, but the tohit buff that comes with it is gravy. Blinding Feint pretty much makes itself "perma" out of the box, though arcanatime kinda messes that up, so stick a recharge DO into it and slot it for acc and tohit buff. It can make soloing a dream early on, and will help against higher level foes, as if you slot it for high acc, the other powers won't need as much acc, allowing for easier slotting of end redux and recharge. Good stuff.
All in all, it's not the best, but it is fun, and has potential if you play to it's strengths.
I've found it just fine to level DB characters as if combos didn't exist until Attack Vitals and then Sweep. The others are lackluster at best anyway. I do take Blinding Feint because hey, why not.
I like the Weaken combo at low to mid level. I found the accuracy debuff very noticeable and useful. Makes a good opening combo IMO.
I did respec out of it shortly after hitting 32, mostly for efficiency of power selection/slotting. Going with just Attack Vitals and Sweep free'ed up enough powers to let me get Acrobatics quicker for Knockdown/Knockback mitigation, as well as letting me slot up my attacks and defenses quicker. I would have liked to have kept Weaken and it was a tough call to give it up, but I do find my toon (now 36? 37?) a lot deadlier and more efficient after the respec.
Another little advantage of using just Attack Vitals and Sweep is that your power combos don't duplicate powers, so you can order them in your tray properly. That was a pleasant side-effect I didn't notice until I was redoing my trays after my respec.
See what I mean about me being the only person who uses all 4 combos? 
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If the OP is going to pair Willpower with Dual Blades, then Acrobatics isn't needed. Grabbing Indomitable Will at 10 (a must, IMO) will give Mag 10.4 to Stun, Hold, Fear, Sleep, Confuse, and Immobilize, and Mag 10 to Knockback and Knockup. It's pretty much Willpower's version of Integration.
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Originally Posted by ForumSniper
I did respec out of it shortly after hitting 32, mostly for efficiency of power selection/slotting. Going with just Attack Vitals and Sweep free'ed up enough powers to let me get Acrobatics quicker for Knockdown/Knockback mitigation
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No doubt. I probably should have noted my toon is /dark (and is a scrapper, not a brute).|
Originally Posted by Kheldarn
If the OP is going to pair Willpower with Dual Blades, then Acrobatics isn't needed. Grabbing Indomitable Will at 10 (a must, IMO) will give Mag 10.4 to Stun, Hold, Fear, Sleep, Confuse, and Immobilize, and Mag 10 to Knockback and Knockup. It's pretty much Willpower's version of Integration.
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I still think it's more efficient to pare down the number of attacks. Reduces the slotting burden, and those extra powers can still come in handy for some other pool powers or more secondaries.
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Oh that´s easy. Grab yourself a(1/one/uno) Buddy on 50 (he should know his AT) and go to a farm missi at the MA. at +4 x8 it should take less than 15 min. to get from 1-25. Just sit back and let him clear the missi...and pass him every Inspi you get.|
Originally Posted by Fireheart
You started 'leveling up' at level 26 and didn't have to bother with levels 1 through 25? I'm interested in learning how you managed that.
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Had that for my Warshade, after I accidentaly(Drunk as a Skunk) deleted my old one. 20 levels in just one run isn´t that bad.
On WP:
Stay the Hell away from Romi ´cause he´ll walk right through you, as WP has almost no Negative Resi. Learned that the hard way -.-
You´ll be good as second tank, for the heal-essence... but Romi will one-hit you 9 out of 10 times.
@Redcap
ANARCHY = A Society that does not need government
114. Ahrouns do not appreciate my particular brand of humour, so I should stop bleaching bulls-eyes in their fur.
Personally I just can't be bothered worrying about combos on a Brute. And without combos, DB is rather lackluster.
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Lackluster how? Damage?
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Originally Posted by Col_Blitzkrieger
Personally I just can't be bothered worrying about combos on a Brute. And without combos, DB is rather lackluster.
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"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
Individually, the DB attacks are not the most damaging in the world. They're not bad, but a bit on the low-side, plus they're all lethal, so you'll be resisted a lot. I'd say they're about... 10-15% weaker on their own.
When you start using the combos, though, you turn from "meh" damage into the thermonuclear blender of doom. DB's two best combos, Attack Vitals and Sweep, are both PbAoE's, allowing you to rather quickly shred through crowds like nobody's business. Also, I've noticed the finishing move of Sweep does about 30% more damage than the move on it's own. And Attack Vitals is mean.
Dual Blades is a sustained damage output set and good at shredding through hordes, and not too shabby against bosses either. The dicey thing with slotting it, especially if you're going for set bonuses, is that it really likes high recharge and accuracy. You don't want to miss, and you want those combos recharging ASAP. Means sometimes making some tradeoffs, at least if you're like me and favor offense over defense.
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And at the other end of the spectrum, I for example don't have any problems with executing combos while raging around as a brute. Those orange circles that appear are great helpers, and after some time I learned to quickly chain together combos without even looking at them.
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Originally Posted by Col_Blitzkrieger
Personally I just can't be bothered worrying about combos on a Brute. And without combos, DB is rather lackluster.
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I think that's one of the reasons I like using all four combos. On my scrapper, with 1 Recharge SO slotted, everything recharges in the perfect amount of time to chain all 4. Heck, I usually finish off a group before I can get off Sweep, the last of my attack chain, unless there's a Boss+ in the group.|
Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend
The dicey thing with slotting it, especially if you're going for set bonuses, is that it really likes high recharge and accuracy. You don't want to miss, and you want those combos recharging ASAP. Means sometimes making some tradeoffs, at least if you're like me and favor offense over defense.
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If I use Hasten, things recharge too fast, and break my rythem for my combos.
I'm sure that if I went with just 2 combos, I'd be wanting more recharge, though...
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I dunno, I usually find mezz resist skippable villain-side until the 20s. Most of the mezz-happy groups heroes have to face are easily avoided by villains, and anything else in that level range either throws them so uncommonly enough that just carrying a Break Free into missions against them usually proves to be enough.
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Originally Posted by Kheldarn
Grabbing Indomitable Will at 10 (a must, IMO)
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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OK, but what about Knock? That's one of the main reasons I take it ASAP. I'd rather take it now, and not have to worry about when to take it later, personally. YMMV.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
I dunno, I usually find mezz resist skippable villain-side until the 20s. Most of the mezz-happy groups heroes have to face are easily avoided by villains, and anything else in that level range either throws them so uncommonly enough that just carrying a Break Free into missions against them usually proves to be enough.
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Nothing villains have to face in the high teens really uses knockback enough for it to be more than a minor annoyance for me. I think the only time I recall really noticing it is against Spetsnaz, since their lieutenants and bosses both like to toss knockback grenades, and I usually avoid Dmitri anyway.
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Originally Posted by Kheldarn
OK, but what about Knock? That's one of the main reasons I take it ASAP. I'd rather take it now, and not have to worry about when to take it later, personally. YMMV.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Just a personal preference thing, then. I'd rather Set It And Forget It™.
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Title says it all...
Im back to the game after a long layoff (stopped not long after Villains) came out so Im not as "up" on some of the new power sets.
I do tend to lurk on the boards looking for info before I post but havent seen anything that answers my question. Whats the story...
Doesnt seem to be much on them ...and from the kinds of info now being asked for they are certainly not a "favored" power set but I cant find info on why.
Is it the re-draw (times 2), is it the base attacks are lower powered as its assumed you will use them in a combo...?
Whats going on..?
Drom
(thinking of starting yet another Alt....a DB/WP brute for solo play)