How Would You Tweak Critter A.I.?
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2010-05-07 24:37 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Sky Raiders do this with their FF bot, too, so it's not like there's not precedent.
Dec out.
I'd say two major changes:
In missions, the rate at which one takes down the mobs influences how the surviving mobs act in two ways: it influences the attacks they use, and their aggro radius. At the start of any mission, the mobs hold back from using their strongest powers, are less prone to using powers that create reinforcements, and have a small aggro radius. If a player is killing quickly, they remaining mobs will start using their heavy hitters more often, use pet summoning abilities immediately, and will have a doubled or tripled aggro radius. The harder you hit them, the harder they hit back, essentially.
Also, instead of having mobs run away almost randomly, the mobs will only run if they're minion class or lower and the last or second to last mob in a group of six or more. The mobs that run away will NOT come back. Instead, they'll seek out a nearby group and join up with them, increasing the group's aggro radius and causing the group to preemptively use certain buffs. If there are no other groups left on the map, the runners will head into a corner and cower, and will be considered 'defeated' at that point.
Neither of these, however, applies to EB or above type mobs.
-Recruited under Arachnos' "Equal-Opportunity Villainy" plan-
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That used to be the sole purpose of Fear powers (and I scratch my head at the thought), but once you get this on a kill-all, it quickly becomes tantamount to a bug. Enemies will run away, sometimes when you're not looking, run back where you came from and where you won't think to look for them, stay away for five minutes, then return to their point of origin after you're two floors down and around the corner. Then when you get to the end of the mission and it doesn't complete, the problems start popping up. The new feature for highlighting "things" on the map when you're almost done helps, but it has a minimal critical range which isn't more than about 300 feet and far less than you'd need on an outdoor map, and it doesn't work across different floors.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
On the runner thing, I actually like it on my Elec/Regen. Because a runner isn't attacking me. More chance to regen and recharge my powers while still being engaged in combat.
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I don't mind enemies backing up. I don't mind them running away, like, 50 feet. What I DO mind is them running and running and running so far away that you may as well not bother waiting for them. Considering this happens to enemies who give a high experience reward and whom I've hurt for 9/10 of their hit points, you better believe this irks me. Taunt and Confront help... Sometimes, but not all ATs have access to that.
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| And that is equating challenge with bad design. A game should make you work to succeed. But that isn't to say needing a full group to smack on one huge sack of HP for the best xp/hr despite its challenge (looking at you FFXI) is better or even good. |
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| You need to distinguish this. Running after a guy that moved from your AoE isn't bad design. That's just logic. Nor does it constitute a drastic change in strategy. |
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| I feel people overlook the fun of the game, myself. For whatever reason, fun has been leveraged around efficiency for damn near every MMO I've ever played. This game is different in that you set your own pace. Your own difficulty. Your own missions. That efficiency isn't an important factor is why I'll probably never leave this game. |
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| There's a reason AoE is so prominent...it's very effective. Don't you feel there should be something to counter this particular tactic just like there are counters for other advantages? |
If you're looking at HERDING, however, then yeah, I can see THAT having counters put onto it. I do agree that it's kind of odd to see supposedly veteran soldiers follow you around a blind corner into a killing field time and time again, so I guess THAT is something to look at. There is no power (that I'm aware of) that herds. It's a tactic achieved by combining multiple factors and abilities, so I could see this as something AI could address. After all, the old days of Dumpster Diving do suggest SOMETHING may be amiss here.
But AoE powers themselves? No. I don't feel they need to be countered. In fact, I don't agree with most of the counters for most other powers. I agree with the Avoid effect on "patch" type powers, but only because the developers gave them such huge damage they're overpowered otherwise. I don't agree with the drawback of control powers, in that sometimes they just don't WORK. I maintain that control powers should have been treated like another kind of damage depleting another kind of status bar and eventually lead to defeat via control, like turning someone to stone... Permanently! I don't agree with the drawbacks of support powers, in that you can't use them on yourself because the game exclusively prevents you from targeting yourself. I just don't like that design.
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| There's gotta be some name for that type of argument... |
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| But runners or non-AoE tactics aren't debilitating to the point that you cannot play or cannot progress in this game. Are you so steeped in convenience that you see no other alternatives? Do you ever go camping? Camping can be fun for a lot. If that's not your cup of tea, go for a hike or long bike ride without technology there for your convenience. Having everything spread out infront of you is great but it's not the default... |
Leaving aside the question of how a Blaster survives if he can't kill things fast, yes, I am just so steeped in convenience that having it taken away from me is not something I will stand for. You talk about how much efficiency is not needed, yet you keep suggesting we make the game harder, thereby NEEDING efficiency just to survive. The reason I got into City of Heroes and the reason I've stayed with the game for as long as I have is because it doesn't treat me as harshly as all the other MMOs. All the others seem purpose-designed to piss me off, with death traps, cheap enemies, harsh penalties and unfriendly design. City of Heroes is the one MMO I can play COMFORTABLY, and I'd rather not lose that comfort because someone else feels the game isn't uncomfortable enough.
I have nothing against people who go hiking. More power to them. But I have A LOT against people who insist on taking me with them and then try to browbeat me when I refuse like I should be ashamed of myself for not wanting to be tough enough. If I wanted to be tough enough and abandon the conveniences of City of Heroes, I'd play Aion or Lineage II or any other Korean grindfest MMO. That's not what I want. What I want is City of Heroes. No more, no less.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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See, this I can get behind. Because of how attacks work in this game, it's not just possible but probable that your enemies will react to your attack, turn and shoot you BEFORE your attack even hits them. In fact, I've had instances where I'll snipe an enemy from 100 feet away and he'll be able to turn around and shoot me before I can move A FOOT to the right and duck behind a corner. At the very least, I like to give enemies around a second's worth of reaction time after being hit. Even superhuman monsters will need to look around for what shot at them after being blindsided.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
If I could, I'd stagger the enemy's attacks based on the number of players perceived vs foes present. So stealth would help mitigate how many attacks you get at once when first engaging but more if there are lots of players on the team. On top of that, I'd like enemies to actually 'prepare' for a fight. Rather than all just turning and shooting at once, maybe some of the minions try and buffer their mez resistance (like popping a breakfree) or simply 'block' the alpha strike of the players so they don't just all fallover dead when everyone cycles their AoEs at once.
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And, yeah, having enemies prep for battle would be a cool idea. The buffs themselves may be problematic, but I don't think it'd be by too much.
See, that's the kind of AI improvement that I really like - not necessarily adding more challenge or making things harder to do, just making the enemies a little less frustrating a little more believable. I actually like how sometimes you'll aggro something but not exactly aggro it, so the enemy will be standing there looking at you, going "Who the hell is that?" If you stand around long enough he'll attack anyway, and even if you run, he'll often still come after you, but it's a nice little touch.
If anything, I'd like to see some enemies that won't attack us on sight like the Praetorian Clockwork are said to. That way you can put overpowered enemies in missions that the players need to avoid attacking, like a level 40 Greater Devoured in a level 30 missions that you just don't want to bother if you can help it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Samuel plays this game pretty much exactly how I do: I love feeling powerful, I love the sight of multiple enemies charging and falling before me, I love that I can take on a dozen or more enemies at once and expect to come out victorious every time. I hate when the game robs me of my powers - be it through being mezzed and having toggles dropped, through endurance drain, through extremely high resistances and protections to my tools and tricks or through AI clever enough to avoid my main sources of damage - and find it utterly frustrating that certain enemy groups (especially ones that are nearly impossible to avoid) have more of these cheats than others (Longbow, I'm looking at you.)
So basically, I agree with everything he said. I play this game, and not other MMOs, because it is easy, because it makes me feel powerful, because I feel super when I beat down waves of enemies.
This is a game about super powers. Why shouldn't I have them?
Set running to individual groups (Weaker, more cowardly groups such as the Hellions and Skulls)
More powerful groups would NOT RUN EVEN when they are LOSING!
to 
TO THE END!Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
While I greatly disagree with Samuel Tow's thought process on difficulty, I think things could possibly be handled differently. Rather than change all spawns, tweak a few current missions and enemies but also create brand new missions that require a bit more tactics in how they are approached. We've already got some under utilized mission mechanics here and there that could stand to be more prevalent.
Concerning running enemies, I see it as "it depends". It should be variable by enemy but also by mission. If you've hunted down this mob boss, he should be trying to run away at the first sign of trouble. Yet, that same Family guy should hold his ground in a different mission. I do agree that the Avoid affect could stand some tweaking though. It's possible that it lasts too long and that the ticks should be doubled in number but halved in duration. Also, it would make sense to make rain style powers frontload the damage but make the avoid affect start low and then exponentially increase the longer they stay in the area.
What if, instead of running, when all but a few mobs on a map were defeated, the last few stragglers surrendered? That would be particularly realistic in Paragon City, but maybe not so much in the Rogue Isles.
Of course there would be the issue of XP - since the mob is no longer a threat to you, you technically wouldn't gain any XP. I suspect something like this might play into the "moral choices" aspect of GR - if you accept the enemy's surrender, your morality bar moves towards the blueside; if you strike them down while they're helpless, your morality bar moves towards the redside.
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
Lots of things can be done to tweak AI.
Flavor Tweaks: Some mobs have prefered targets. Lots of possibilites here. AT, gender, Origin or power use. So a Carnie Ring Mistress could have a preference for attacking Males. Each mob could have anywhere from 1-3 of these. So Luddies would prefer to attack Tech and Science characters. Crey Snipers could have a prefered target of Defenders and Controllers.
Runners warn nearby groups. Rather than just running away, now runners aggro nearby groups to help them.
Anti herding/AoE tactics. Spreading. Running or refusing to chase.
More "nasty" combos by groups. So facing groups with debuffers, taunters, buffers and control.
Archetype Diversification: Having more than 2 of an AT triggers the AD code. So if you have 3 or more buff/debuff types then 99% debuff resist mobs appear who ignore buffs on players too! Have 3 tanks? Well here comes some nasty debuffers. Have 3 control types? Here comes mobs with PToD up all the time. Have too many blasters? Here comes mobs full of mez. Have too many scrappers? Mobs with PBAoE debuffs are coming.
Nemesis mobs: Works like AD but this is to help with "corner solution" formulas for "hard" content. So now mobs will adjust on the fly to make the next mission in the TF/SF harder. Have a Granite tank? Well the next mission in the TF has a mission where TP and Speed boost is suppressed and mobs switch to Psy based attacks. oh yeah, they stick small speed bumps so you have to jump over them. Something to spice up high level TFs. They also toss out snowstorm spamming mobs 
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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If you're talking about bosses that run AND FAIL THE MISSION, then ugh... That is probably the WORST mission mechanic in the entire game, and I'm counting the visits to PvP liasions and simu-click missions in that one. I'm tired of being beaten over the head about using the slows and holds I don't have on these, so let me leave it at this: I HATE THESE MISSIONS!|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Concerning running enemies, I see it as "it depends". It should be variable by enemy but also by mission. If you've hunted down this mob boss, he should be trying to run away at the first sign of trouble. Yet, that same Family guy should hold his ground in a different mission. I do agree that the Avoid affect could stand some tweaking though. It's possible that it lasts too long and that the ticks should be doubled in number but halved in duration. Also, it would make sense to make rain style powers frontload the damage but make the avoid affect start low and then exponentially increase the longer they stay in the area.
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On more general running enemies, what bugs me about them isn't that they run, it's that I have to chase them. In, say, Assassin's Creed, a guard who runs away just disappears into the distance, never to be seen again. In City of Heroes, a guard who runs away moves to a different place, then returns, either forcing you to wait (which sucks) or forcing you to backtrack (which also sucks). I'm usually committed to killing everything I can target, but even I will tend to go "Ah, screw it!" and move on. I don't always have the option, however.
A solution that keeps enemies running away but solves the dilemma of having to chase them is this: Have enemies who run away run away for the instance entrance and LEAVE. Enemies who left award partial experience equal to the percent health an enemy had when he left, just the same way as if someone else had finished him off. That way, not only will running enemies be much more realistic (enemies fleeing in fear ought to run AWAY, not run in circles), they'll be significantly less irritating, becoming sort of self-disposing villains. You're still only earning for the damage you do, so it isn't exploitable, I wouldn't think.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sure, why not. I doubt this will make enough of a difference for players to notice it, though. The way aggro is handled, either they'll be on the "tank" or you'll be playing solo in which case it doesn't matter. Still, I agree.|
Originally Posted by newchemicals
Flavor Tweaks: Some mobs have prefered targets. Lots of possibilites here. AT, gender, Origin or power use. So a Carnie Ring Mistress could have a preference for attacking Males. Each mob could have anywhere from 1-3 of these. So Luddies would prefer to attack Tech and Science characters. Crey Snipers could have a prefered target of Defenders and Controllers.
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| Runners warn nearby groups. Rather than just running away, now runners aggro nearby groups to help them. |
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| Anti herding/AoE tactics. Spreading. Running or refusing to chase. |
I don't mind this from special encounters, but as a general practice even for specific factions, it'd be far too irritating.
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| More "nasty" combos by groups. So facing groups with debuffers, taunters, buffers and control. |
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Archetype Diversification: Having more than 2 of an AT triggers the AD code. So if you have 3 or more buff/debuff types then 99% debuff resist mobs appear who ignore buffs on players too! Have 3 tanks? Well here comes some nasty debuffers. Have 3 control types? Here comes mobs with PToD up all the time. Have too many blasters? Here comes mobs full of mez. Have too many scrappers? Mobs with PBAoE debuffs are coming. Nemesis mobs: Works like AD but this is to help with "corner solution" formulas for "hard" content. So now mobs will adjust on the fly to make the next mission in the TF/SF harder. Have a Granite tank? Well the next mission in the TF has a mission where TP and Speed boost is suppressed and mobs switch to Psy based attacks. oh yeah, they stick small speed bumps so you have to jump over them. Something to spice up high level TFs. They also toss out snowstorm spamming mobs
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm going to assume that this is sarcasm, because part of what I keep hearing is a good point about this game is that teams don't need to diversify to work, as opposed to what I think goes like "healer tanker DPSer" or something.
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
Archetype Diversification: Having more than 2 of an AT triggers the AD code. So if you have 3 or more buff/debuff types then 99% debuff resist mobs appear who ignore buffs on players too! Have 3 tanks? Well here comes some nasty debuffers. Have 3 control types? Here comes mobs with PToD up all the time. Have too many blasters? Here comes mobs full of mez. Have too many scrappers? Mobs with PBAoE debuffs are coming.
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Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue
Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~
What surprises me about you Sam is that you actually like fighting games. I say that because they require high dexterity, the AI for some series are notorious for move reading/cheating, and playing against a human requires you to think on the fly. Yet, you seem to be so vocally opposed to the same concepts in CoH. Having the computer simply cheat is bad but making enemies actually try to fight back is not.
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Thing is, anti herding generally IS anti AoE and AoE is generally the reason to want to herd. There's other reasons such as herding as a form of soft control for the rest of your team but the main reason is just to drop AoEs on the enemies.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Anti-herding, sure. Anti-AoE, I'm not sure I'm a fan. Anti-herding measures can typically consist of enemies not following blindly around corners or not wanting to approach or clump up too much. That I can kind of see. But causing enemies to scatter?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If you're talking about bosses that run AND FAIL THE MISSION, then ugh... That is probably the WORST mission mechanic in the entire game, and I'm counting the visits to PvP liasions and simu-click missions in that one. I'm tired of being beaten over the head about using the slows and holds I don't have on these, so let me leave it at this: I HATE THESE MISSIONS!
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This is for TF/SF since the incarnate system is supposed to make characters more powerful. How do you make the game "harder" without pushing things into corner solutions? RSF is a good example.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You know, the rest I could see, but that's just cheap. So basically you're suggesting that if a team ends up having a useful team member, the game should alter to all but kick that team member off the team? Have a Granite Tank? Next mission will cause his connection to fail. Because that's what it amounts to. Any change in the game designed to specifically and deliberately take a player out of the game with no option for retaliation other than logging in a different character is not well designed. Void Hunters and Quantum Gunners are currently just about skirting the line, and even then I think they're just cheap. At least hey no longer deal unresistable damage. Doesn't stop them from doing lots of knockback and stun, though.
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This type of code isn't for single missions.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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A fighting game is a very different beast to an RPG, though. Playing preference aside, RPGs depend almost entirely on preparation. Sure, knowing what to do is important, but having the right skills of the right level is is critical. City of Heroes is more forgiving than most, so a variety of skills can do the same job, but all too often NOT having a specific skill can be crippling in a way that "tactics" just can't overcome. Having an enemy that can kill you faster than you can kill it and is immune to any incapacitation you can give it is a good example. A Blaster, for instance, survives on killing things before they kill it, but killing an Elite Boss fast is simply not an option. My only other alternative is to overdose on purples, fire up all my damage buffs and hope I can deal enough before I run out of crutches. It's a clever little trick, but it comes at the cost of completely and totally breaking the game as it is designed to be balanced.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
What surprises me about you Sam is that you actually like fighting games. I say that because they require high dexterity, the AI for some series are notorious for move reading/cheating, and playing against a human requires you to think on the fly. Yet, you seem to be so vocally opposed to the same concepts in CoH. Having the computer simply cheat is bad but making enemies actually try to fight back is not.
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And while I DO enjoy fighting games, I HATE cheating enemies. And cheat is the only thing the AI in those games can do, to the point where it becomes obvious. Move reading is a no-brainer, so you just have to wait for the AI to use a long-recovery move that it can't block from, or which can be interrupted. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 has the Incredible Hulk constantly trying to jump in on you with a heavy kick, leading to him eating a lot of anti-air special moves. Basically, your only choice is, again, to exploit the AI. I wouldn't call that a true victory. I also hate cheating enemies in terms of stats. Marvel Super Heroes Thanos and his stupid auto-filling supers is just cheap, as is Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter's Cyber Akuma, the ******* with high priority instant-cast attacks with no recovery that hits like a train.
Fighting games are only ever fun with other people, partly because the computer is dumb, partly because the computer cheats, but mostly because people you can interact with. Other people make human mistakes, which are the most fun kind to deal with. While computers do make mistakes, themselves, theirs are either deliberate or require me to play cheap, neither of which I enjoy. Humans I can count on to just plain old screw up, and that's what makes it fun.
That said, City of Heroes is not an action game. It depends far too much on preparation, has far too diverse encounters and relies on far too many factors. Fighting games are fun because there aren't that many options, so it's a question of timing and reflexes. In City of Heroes, it's far too easy to have an ability that is rendered useless or lack an ability that you really need, or face a situation you are simply not equipped to handle. Considering there are a fair few characters who depend on AoE for their solo game, simply taking it out of their hands has the potential to make certain missions anything from NOT FUN to unwinnable.
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| Thing is, anti herding generally IS anti AoE and AoE is generally the reason to want to herd. There's other reasons such as herding as a form of soft control for the rest of your team but the main reason is just to drop AoEs on the enemies. |
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| I don't see the problem if warning is given beforehand. This is where I was coming from on that we should have a greater abundance differing mission types so that someone who wants to melee and just do damage can do that while someone who wants missions that favor control can do that. For example, my favorite TF is the Abandoned Sewer Trial. Under most circumstances, attempts to set it up aren't just met with dislike, it's met with a reaction of fear. Most people don't want to run it (or don't know it exists since it isn't the ITF...) but it's good to have the option for that kind of mission. |
As far as the Sewer Trial goes, people tend to be afraid of it because it's very difficult, on account of head-scratchingly awkward design which intends that you fight spawns of a dozen or so bosses +3 to the entire team all the time, and gives you an aggressively small timer AND hidden clickies to go through. I actually enjoy the Sewer Trial a lot, but that's simply because it's rarely cheap and never impossible. It's not even all that annoying once you know what you're supposed to do.
Basically, I don't want to be put in situations where I simply lack the tools to get the job done, and while people who don't play Scrappers are no doubt vindicated every time a Scrapper player complains about being unable to do something, I still don't consider it good design.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It is a sarcastic remark. I'm trying to speculate how Positron plans to balance the pandora's box of Incarnates.
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Originally Posted by DKellis
I'm going to assume that this is sarcasm, because part of what I keep hearing is a good point about this game is that teams don't need to diversify to work, as opposed to what I think goes like "healer tanker DPSer" or something.
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H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
One annoyance I run into in the game that many probably shrug off as challenge: Alpha strikes (and subsequent Beta strikes).
I'm not sure if that was the balancing goal of the devs when they created the AI but it seems more like a limitation of the first programmers and we just coped.
If I could, I'd stagger the enemy's attacks based on the number of players perceived vs foes present. So stealth would help mitigate how many attacks you get at once when first engaging but more if there are lots of players on the team. On top of that, I'd like enemies to actually 'prepare' for a fight. Rather than all just turning and shooting at once, maybe some of the minions try and buffer their mez resistance (like popping a breakfree) or simply 'block' the alpha strike of the players so they don't just all fallover dead when everyone cycles their AoEs at once.
Sort of like how some Rikti will turn and summon a portal or cast buffs at the start of a fight. This feels more engaging not to mention requires action to thwart or overcome (think AS the guardian or hide-crit the communications officer or outright dominate with mez or debuffs). You don't have to but it's something...