This is why I hate Paragon Wiki. Are their any websites that list the actual values of powers without me having to go make an AT just to compare powers? Paragon Wiki listed Slow recharge on both Footstomp and Lightning Rod yet apparantly 20 sec recharge and 90 sec recharge are both "slow". :P
As for farming on Vill Side, is SS/El Armor better than SS/FA (Inclu Nemesis)
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WP's Rise to the Challenge taunts all enemies near the Brute just like Invuln's Invincibility.|
Originally Posted by Enyalios
(snip) WP sucks for holding aggro though so you know thats really the only drawback. Note: SS/Inv isn't as good right out of the box but might actually IO out a little better at 50th and can hold aggro.
Elec/Shield is popular at the moment and its not hard to see why. S/L soft cap it and its got amazing AoE potential with the 2 TP damage attacks and all the other benefits of the elec AoEs. (snip) |
Shield gets positional defense bonuses. Capping S/L would be wasted effort when you can get positional bonuses on top of what Shield grants. Plus Shield grants an additional PBAoE attack in Shield Charge so you can slot an Obliteration for 4 nice set bonuses (damage, accuracy, recharge and melee defense)
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Yes, but unlike Invincibility it has an incredibly short duration (1sec base). RttC will get the mobs aggro, but you'll need to attack/use Taunt/slot RttC for taunt to keep it.
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Originally Posted by Wiccania
WP's Rise to the Challenge taunts all enemies near the Brute just like Invuln's Invincibility[...]
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Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
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Thanks for this info, I have often wondered why my WP characters seem to hold less aggro than others with a taunt aura.
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Originally Posted by Silas
Yes, but unlike Invincibility it has an incredibly short duration (1sec base). RttC will get the mobs aggro, but you'll need to attack/use Taunt/slot RttC for taunt to keep it.
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I'm torn between SS/WP and claw/SR. Both of mine are total monsters.
On the SS/WP, I added soul mastery for some serious dmg AoE wise with dark obliteration and ST wise with gloom doing the DPS chain from the "results are in take 1" thread on the scrapper board. Pretty much cut down anything except when I run into a lucky group of cims and I see "deflected" floating followed by defense failure and out damaging rttc. That doesn't happen often
Claw/sr mows thru everything as well just not as fast due to the smaller radius of spin and no dark O. The problem I run into on that one are the nems in the TV farm. I don't like having to pick out targets not to take out first or suffer sudden death due to a massive to hit/def buff that gets 3 stacked. Cims get put in there place, though. Always.
I think SS/SR/Soul would be a total monster. The issue with SS/SR would be be the rage crash. Not because of the -def because you can get rage to stack thus no -def. It would be the end crash on an end heavy set without any recovery tools. It would be even worst if you had hasten and that crash too. Although, there is a solution to that.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
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Red Tomax page. There is a link to that page on paragon wiki in the left column.
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Originally Posted by Kenshinhan
This is why I hate Paragon Wiki. Are their any websites that list the actual values of powers without me having to go make an AT just to compare powers?
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"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
I have a few of level 50 brutes, Fire/FA, Dm/Da, SS/FA, Dm/WP, Claw/invul but my two favorites are SS/Invul and Dm/FA. I love all the tools with Dm/FA and you toss on a bunch of s/l set bonus and recharge set bonus/Lotg, just really nice all around. Easy and fun to level. SS/Invul on IO sets is just nuts.
Enjoy,
Cipher
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LOL NO scrapper can do what a brute can do! They do way more damage when fury high, and they can be buffed defensively to almost tank levels. I got my 1st brute to 50, and IO'd him out. He is dark/inv and can do things that my scrappers could never do!
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Originally Posted by Kitty
I haven't played a brute before but I think I'm going to try one, but I have a concern
when GR is released, and brutes can go blue, where will they be left? will they be the same as a scrapper but with less utility? and will they have to take a back seat to tankers because they are squishier the brute seems like the Jack-of-all trades character, but master of none  |
So how good would you all say a Stone/Stone Brute is in PVP?
I have several brutes at 50 and enjoy the SMASH in general, they all play differently as they were intended. My elec/wp and dm/stone can hold their own when tanking is needed. My stone/nrg, em/sr, ss/wp and dm/fire are just a thrill on teams and can bring serious dps. My ss/fire was made to farm and he's absolutely great at his job.
Numbers can say lots of things, yea tanks can take it, scraps can deal it. But Brutes are like bazookas, just point us in the general direction. We get it smashed and team keeps rolling. We don't wanna be tanks or scrappers, we've defined smash to an art. 
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Sounds like a very bad idea to me, but I never pvp.
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Originally Posted by TheMadRussian
So how good would you all say a Stone/Stone Brute is in PVP?
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Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
For Farming:
SS/fire better than SS/SD or Ele/SD?
Ele Melee has an AoE = Footstomp in Thunder Strike, where Footstomp has double the radius but 20 less damage @50 and a less PvE DMG Scale than TS. TS has a 18s recharge vs FS 20s, but TS has a cast time of 3.3s vs FS 2.1s.
Ele Melee also has another nuke-like AoE in Lightning Rod, and a cone.
SD seems better than Fire in AoE damage with Shield Charge which is very much like Ele Melee's Lightning Rod. (90s recharge, less damage)
So many advocate ss/fire as the best farmer but I'm skeptical. How is it Ele Melee isn't the primiere primary with /SD as the secondary for Brutes?
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TS only does 40 aoe damage in a 7ft radius around the target. The full damage is only single target|
Originally Posted by Kenshinhan
For Farming:
SS/fire better than SS/SD or Ele/SD? Ele Melee has an AoE = Footstomp in Thunder Strike, where Footstomp has double the radius but 20 less damage @50 and a less PvE DMG Scale than TS. TS has a 18s recharge vs FS 20s, but TS has a cast time of 3.3s vs FS 2.1s. |
FS on the other hand does 59 aoe damage with a 15 ft radius. From an aoe perspective FS>>>>>>>TS.
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Most Scrapper players just dont play common sense builds.2 builds that i have are common sense...and rather strong.Claws/Fire for Ranged Chaos, and a Spines/Invln for Tanking.
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Originally Posted by Gilia
Actually, Brutes do more damage and are more survivable than Scrappers. I don't know what you mean by less utility... The advantage to Scrappers is that if Fury isn't in play they do more damage... so they can do a big burst of damage at the alpha strike. Possibly they critical and decimate some boss. However, over time the Brute will out pace them in damage, too.
Brutes can tank with a mild amount of support or a good build, too. A Scrapper needs some serious support or a really good build. So turn that frown upside down. The Scrappers can frown instead. |
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The only thing that makes a brute more survivable than a scrapper is a higher base hp. Before any buffs outside your secondary, res and def numbers for brutes and scrappers are the same. If anything, a scrapper would be more survivable due to the fact that a brute generates more aggro. (Brutes taunt aura is mag 4 and scrappers is mag 3 for the scrapper secondaries that even have a taunt aura) As far as tanking is concerned, whether your specifically meaning aggro management then yes a brute will hold aggro better but as far as taking the alpha is concerned, it entirely comes down to the player and the build.
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Originally Posted by Gilia
Actually, Brutes do more damage and are more survivable than Scrappers. I don't know what you mean by less utility... The advantage to Scrappers is that if Fury isn't in play they do more damage... so they can do a big burst of damage at the alpha strike. Possibly they critical and decimate some boss. However, over time the Brute will out pace them in damage, too.
Brutes can tank with a mild amount of support or a good build, too. A Scrapper needs some serious support or a really good build. So turn that frown upside down. The Scrappers can frown instead. |
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yeah, but the thing is, you can pop a bunch of oranges on a brute, or hang out with some cool cats that will buff you, and you can get to the same defense and resistance caps as a tank. Scrappers can't. |
Originally Posted by doomrider
The only thing that makes a brute more survivable than a scrapper is a higher base hp. Before any buffs outside your secondary, res and def numbers for brutes and scrappers are the same. If anything, a scrapper would be more survivable due to the fact that a brute generates more aggro. (Brutes taunt aura is mag 4 and scrappers is mag 3 for the scrapper secondaries that even have a taunt aura) As far as tanking is concerned, whether your specifically meaning aggro management then yes a brute will hold aggro better but as far as taking the alpha is concerned, it entirely comes down to the player and the build.
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Also, when you IO a brute, you can get to the same HP cap as a tank can, Scrappers can't.
It's not the base that makes brutes superior in survivability, it's the potential.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Cause scrappers can't pop inspirations or be on a team and accept buffs? right... :P I was talking about survivability in comparison with brutes without any buffs outside of your secondary powerset. Defense is defense so a difference in cap is irrelevant, both AT's are capable of reaching the softcap through io's without any need for buffs and therefore, any defense past the softcap would be only there to mitigate against defense debuffs and wouldn't be different when you compare the 2 AT's. As far as resistance goes, typically the difference between 75% and 90% is marginal at best and will only yield noticable differences in survivability in extreme situations when you don't take into account already layered mitigation (ie. regen values, defense and soft-control on top of resistances.) A brute is nothing more than a scrapper with tank level HP. Yes you can be buffed to tank level survivability due to your res cap and your higher HP will bolster better regen values but that won't make you a tank any day of the week when your solo or without buffs. If a scrapper and a brute with identical builds were sitting in a mob a of +4 arachnos do you honestly think that hp difference would really make a lick of difference? no. If anything the brute would steal aggro from the scrapper and faceplant.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
yeah, but the thing is, you can pop a bunch of oranges on a brute, or hang out with some cool cats that will buff you, and you can get to the same defense and resistance caps as a tank. Scrappers can't.
Also, when you IO a brute, you can get to the same HP cap as a tank can, Scrappers can't. It's not the base that makes brutes superior in survivability, it's the potential. |
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/FA's fire resistance will be 90% instead of 75%. /elec's nrg resistance will be 90% instead of 75%. |
Originally Posted by doomrider
Cause scrappers can't pop inspirations or be on a team and accept buffs? right... :P I was talking about survivability in comparison with brutes without any buffs outside of your secondary powerset. Defense is defense so a difference in cap is irrelevant, both AT's are capable of reaching the softcap through io's without any need for buffs and therefore, any defense past the softcap would be only there to mitigate against defense debuffs and wouldn't be different when you compare the 2 AT's. As far as resistance goes, typically the difference between 75% and 90% is marginal at best and will only yield noticable differences in survivability in extreme situations when you don't take into account already layered mitigation (ie. regen values, defense and soft-control on top of resistances.) A brute is nothing more than a scrapper with tank level HP. Yes you can be buffed to tank level survivability due to your res cap and your higher HP will bolster better regen values but that won't make you a tank any day of the week when your solo or without buffs. If a scrapper and a brute with identical builds were sitting in a mob a of +4 arachnos do you honestly think that hp difference would really make a lick of difference? no. If anything the brute would steal aggro from the scrapper and faceplant.
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The difference between 75% and 90% isn't marginal. You take 2,5 times more damage. If you'd put it in def terms, it's be like comparing 37,5% to 45%.
And you forgot about the god modes. Invuln and elec can easily get to 90% instead of 75%.
About the insps, it's not that the scrapper can't pop some. It's that the invuln scrapper with tough will only get from 70%-ish to 75%, instead of going a lot higher. Same for the buffs, you're still capped. But even without insps/buffs, like you mentionned in your first post, there's still a bunch of situation where the cap will make a huge difference.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Scrappers and Brutes are close enough that they're largely interchangeable, depending on your preference for Crits vs Fury.
Personally, I prefer Brutes because solo Fury isn't an issue so you've got comparable or superior performance to a Scrapper, on teams Brutes will have higher performance because of their higher buff caps and will have aggro control because of their punchvoke.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
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I understand my generalizations left out a few exceptions such as /fa and /elec's resists hitting the cap at 90 especially when considering powers like grounded and temperature protection which to some may seem optional, will infact allow you to hit the 90 cap for those specific res quite easily. Brutes do make better use the god modes too I agree.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
/FA's fire resistance will be 90% instead of 75%. /elec's nrg resistance will be 90% instead of 75%.
The difference between 75% and 90% isn't marginal. You take 2,5 times more damage. If you'd put it in def terms, it's be like comparing 37,5% to 45%. And you forgot about the god modes. Invuln and elec can easily get to 90% instead of 75%. About the insps, it's not that the scrapper can't pop some. It's that the invuln scrapper with tough will only get from 70%-ish to 75%, instead of going a lot higher. Same for the buffs, you're still capped. But even without insps/buffs, like you mentionned in your first post, there's still a bunch of situation where the cap will make a huge difference. |
My point originally was that when you compare the two AT's, in terms of numbers, without factoring in buffs/inspirations they're very similar in terms of survivability and damage output.
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In a bubble, with no inspirations, and with no outside buffs, the brute still has more survivability. Higher HP is nothing to sneeze at. Also, the fury mechanic puts them ahead in both mitigation and damage output. |
Originally Posted by doomrider
My point originally was that when you compare the two AT's, in terms of numbers, without factoring in buffs/inspirations they're very similar in terms of survivability and damage output.
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Scrappers have better burst damage, but over time brutes will pull into the lead in constant dps.
This means that survivabilitywise, the brute has the edge on 2 fronts. And that is in a bubble.
If you take into account real situations, the brute comes out even farther ahead. With inspirations you can take substantially less damage, OR due to the substantially higher damage bonus cap, you can put out damage that a scrapper can't come close to.
Throw them on the right team, and it's no contest.
If you are going to compare them, compare them. Throwing limitations on the comparison makes it invalid.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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brute wins, the extra aggro keeps his fury capped and he kills it faster than the scrapper can, the extra hp keeps him alive long enough to make sure of it.|
Originally Posted by doomrider
If a scrapper and a brute with identical builds were sitting in a mob a of +4 arachnos do you honestly think that hp difference would really make a lick of difference? no. If anything the brute would steal aggro from the scrapper and faceplant.
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of course, it also depends on the secondary. If it's WP, then the extra regen the brute gains from his higher hp base means he not only lives longer than the scrapper, he does so comfortably. Then again, with the higher HP base, any self heals are more effective as well.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Yes and no. Brutes only do slightly better then scrapper. I think the average was along 5%. And one of the big reason why is because Gloom is such a good attack. With GR, scrappers might get gloom, and might be more damaging.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
In a bubble, with no inspirations, and with no outside buffs, the brute still has more survivability. Higher HP is nothing to sneeze at. Also, the fury mechanic puts them ahead in both mitigation and damage output.
Scrappers have better burst damage, but over time brutes will pull into the lead in constant dps. This means that survivabilitywise, the brute has the edge on 2 fronts. And that is in a bubble. If you take into account real situations, the brute comes out even farther ahead. With inspirations you can take substantially less damage, OR due to the substantially higher damage bonus cap, you can put out damage that a scrapper can't come close to. Throw them on the right team, and it's no contest. If you are going to compare them, compare them. Throwing limitations on the comparison makes it invalid. |
While the brute damage cap is higher...is base damage is a lot lower then scrapper. When you count insps or buffs, there was a post about it. Scrapper where higher for a good portion of the time (specialy with things like BU), untill you really went past the scrapper cap. Most of the time, you won't pop for 200+% of red insps. =P
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Does a scrapper crit off of High DoT that is Gloom? If not, the Brute will pull ahead overtime due to Fury boosting Gloom's DoT while the scrapper can't crit off of it.
I'm confused as to why El Melee is not chosen over SStrength for farming in general, with both of the Ele Melee AoE's having knockdown just like Foot Stomp.
El Melee has Build Up to make up for no Rage, and Rage has its 10 sec crash.
El Melee's AoE Lightning Rod is listed as Superior DMG (vs Footstomp's Moderate DMG) and has the same recharge speed as FootStomp, and can take a Forced Feedback Recharge Proc. The only gems SStrength has to write home about looks like Knockout Blow for ST Extreme DMG, along with Haymaker for High DMG. Although with the more powerful AoE's from El Melee you'd think the gap would be eclipsed in ST damage when AoE's are cycled in constantly on one target.
Base recharge for Lightning Rod = 90 seconds
While it's true that Lightning rod does more damage, it takes almost 5x longer to recharge then foot stomp. Also Rage +20% toHit and +80% damage...it lasts for 120 seconds 9and can be made permanent outside of the crashes every 120 seconds)...vs. buildup's 10 second duration (and 90 second base recharge). Over time rage will just produce a much more noticeable boost in accuracy and damage.
To sum it up...ELM is a nice set for AoE...but quantity of AoE's doesn't equal quality of AoE's. Foot Stomp is a fantastic AoE that really stands out, especially when combined with rage (and hi recharge).
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