Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Best at holding aggro? Ice wins this handily with Chilling Embrace and Icicles; you get the fastest autohit tic rate with CE and a damage aura with Icicles.
|
Dark and fire do a much better job at this and can live longer too...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Best all-around tank? I'd probably give the nod to Invuln, it's very survivable and with moderate IO bonuses can actually rival a Granite tanker in durability without the drawbacks a Stone tank suffers.
|
Agreed but WP does come very close as does elec.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Best damaging tank? Shields unquestionably... it couples great durability with a great damage enhancing aura with Against All Odds and a great AOE attack with Shield Charge. Add in IO bonuses to reach the soft cap and it's just behind a soft capped Invuln in durability.
|
Whilst shield is nice I dont think its the most damaging.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Both Invuln and Shield will be great at holding aggro as well, they're one step down from Ice in that regard tied for second place. The reason for this is that all three of these auras are long duration (Inv and Shield are the longest duration of any tanker set) and AUTOHIT... Fire and Dark have auras that must roll tohit or have no effect.
|
This is why fire and dark are hands down the best at holding agro, even if ice is also very good with this is has nowhere near the survivability of the two, even though dark and fire are both heavily reliant on heal.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
If you want to hold aggro then Willpower is the worst primary in the game for this, it's aggro aura is incredibly underpowered and only marginally effective... you'll have to rely on other tools to manage aggro. It can be done, but WP is at a big disadvantage in the aggro department. WP is durable, but the terrible aura makes it a poor choice for an aggro holding tank.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Please remember that the tanker that's really tough in the endgame may well be weak early... defense based sets tend to be pretty squishy before they get their defenses above 30% and that usually doesn't happen until the late 20's to mid-30's. Ironically Stone is one of the weakest primaries before level 32 where it suddenly becomes the strongest. That's based on my personal experience leveling one Invuln and two Stone tanks to 50 and a Shield to 38 (current project). Resistance based tanks have an easier time in the early game but frequently are eclipsed in the endgame by a mature soft capped defensive set. What makes Invuln so strong is that it combines good resistance with good defense and a good heal/HP boost for damage that gets through the first two layers.
|
really is about how you slot a tank onto how tough it will be.its also what your doing that effects you as well. some primaries just play better against npcs/factions.
did you know you can almost s/l cap resistance and still almost soft cap a elec tank that can rival a soft capped invul?..sure elec needs to pay out more but it can be done
same be be said about stone vs invul. i can 6 slot common i.o's in granite and invuls would have to pay way more in sets and rely heavy in bonus's to "contend"
when it comes to fire say against an invul my fire tank can beast out the shard and ive seen invuls and ice fall so quick it aint even funny.so theres really isnt any one good answer. alot of things have to be taken in to see what you would like to play and then see how good you can play it.
p.s. i think someone ran the numbers of fire vs shields and fire won however it was close. i have a shield/fire purpled out and a fire/fire purpled/pvp i.o'd out and my fire/fire still outdamages thanks to a big chuck of recharge in my bonus's .aao is nice but only in HUGE mobs.one or two aint squat where fe and bu are huge no matter the number.there lies in the issue in why it might not be more damaging then a fire tank is or could be. and if they get ppp's and can grab the aoe immob .burn becomes a huge factor again in gr thanks to both fe and bu buffing burn.
Quote:
Not in my experience they don't, and both have a 2 second tic rate on their auras which also makes them inferior to Ice. Chilling Embrace has a 0.5 second tic rate and is autohit with a 13.5 second duration and a healthy damage debuff; for aggro purposes it beats any 2 second tic damage aura easily even ignoring the tohit roll. In fact it effortlessly beats any aggro aura in the game.|
Originally Posted by Sunstormer
Dark and fire do a much better job at this and can live longer too... |
Nothing in the game grabs aggro as well and as fast as an Ice tank. This is fact, not supposition. Once an Ice tank has aggro it's impossible to get it away from him as well. I have stripped aggro from a Dark tanker with my Invuln, nothing can strip aggro from an Ice tank short of that tank deactivating CE.
Now I won't argue that Dark & Fire are quite competent at getting and holding aggro but their auras aren't as efficient as Ice. If you don't believe me then team with an Ice tanker and try it out. Both of you jump into a group and see who gets the aggro. I guarantee it'll be the Ice tank. An Ice tank is as supreme in his area of excellence as a Granite tank is in his.
Quote:
|
Disagree, go try a fire/fire. Build up + fiery embrace = big numbers Whilst shield is nice I dont think its the most damaging. |
Shield is also much more survivable than a Fire/Fire tank... and I have played both. AAO really IS that good, and it's your taunt aura so it isn't costing you a power pick simply for additional damage.
Quote:
|
True, but how often does any serious tanker not have accuracy slotted in there taunt auras? Its not hard to slot it, plus with fire you have burn which is autohit and dark has 3 toggles that all add taunt to targets, death shroud, cloak of fear and oppressive gloom. Ok only death shroud and blazing aura can be slotted for taunt but because of gauntlet all the others still count anyway, burn in particular counts loads because each time the DoT effect hits it adds gauntlet effects. This is why fire and dark are hands down the best at holding agro, even if ice is also very good with this is has nowhere near the survivability of the two, even though dark and fire are both heavily reliant on heal. |
There's another reason why Death Shroud and Blazing Aura aren't as good as Ice, Invuln & Shield as aggro holding tools; their tic rate is 2 seconds vs 1 second for Invuln & Shield and 0.5 second for Ice. By the way, this is also why Stone's Mud Pots is inferior at holding aggro to Ice, Invuln & Shield... tic rate and duration. The faster an aura tics the faster it grabs aggro and the longer the duration the longer it holds aggro. Nothing tics faster than Chilling Embrace and nothing lasts longer than Invincibility and Against All Odds.
You do have an argument with Dark's three auras, but very few tankers will run all three in the first place due to the cost and they tend to cause mob scatter. You will still take twice as long to acquire aggro as an Invuln and 4 times as long as an Ice. Burn really doesn't count as an aggro aura due to it's transient nature and the extreme scatter it causes.
Quote:
| Didnt really notice this tbh so i cant really comment. Seemed fine to me. |
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Quote:
You are getting into real edge cases here, but I agree with your comments; my experience in the issue 16 beta with a level bumped 50 Elec/SS tanker was... less than stellar on pure SO enhancements. At the same time I did work out a near-soft capped build in Mids for that character that looked to be very good in theory; I lacked the resources on Test to actually make it reality. I've no doubt that it would have been extremely effective with that added defense. Expensive, but effective.|
Originally Posted by Severe
really is about how you slot a tank onto how tough it will be.its also what your doing that effects you as well. some primaries just play better against npcs/factions.
did you know you can almost s/l cap resistance and still almost soft cap a elec tank that can rival a soft capped invul?..sure elec needs to pay out more but it can be done same be be said about stone vs invul. i can 6 slot common i.o's in granite and invuls would have to pay way more in sets and rely heavy in bonus's to "contend" when it comes to fire say against an invul my fire tank can beast out the shard and ive seen invuls and ice fall so quick it aint even funny.so theres really isnt any one good answer. alot of things have to be taken in to see what you would like to play and then see how good you can play it. |
Quote:
| p.s. i think someone ran the numbers of fire vs shields and fire won however it was close. i have a shield/fire purpled out and a fire/fire purpled/pvp i.o'd out and my fire/fire still outdamages thanks to a big chuck of recharge in my bonus's .aao is nice but only in HUGE mobs.one or two aint squat where fe and bu are huge no matter the number.there lies in the issue in why it might not be more damaging then a fire tank is or could be. and if they get ppp's and can grab the aoe immob .burn becomes a huge factor again in gr thanks to both fe and bu buffing burn. |
If you compare similar builds you'd probably find that the Shield/Fire killed faster... I know my 38 Shield/Fire kills significantly faster than my 37 Fire/Fire; both have roughly comparable shinies in their builds. The Shield/Fire is also considerably more durable.
I know your Fire/Fire is a monster, but you've invested so much into that build that it had better be.
Honestly though, could you obtain better results on the Fire/Fire than the Shield/Fire if you only had 200 million to devote to each build?I've found that keeping a sizable amount of AAO fodder isn't that tough on my BS/SD scrapper; my tank has leveled exclusively with SG buddies so I haven't really run him much solo but it isn't a real problem to gather enough mobs together for Combustion/Shield Charge/Fire Sword Circle. True, after that combination and the pain the rest of the team dishes out there's not much left so you move on to the next group and rinse/repeat Combustion/FSC until SC is up again.
I can see how massive amounts of recharge could alter that formula, but that's a bit outside the norm. I've only built a truly MASSIVE recharge build once, for a perma-PA Ill/Rad controller. Generally I've too many characters I'm working on to devote that kind of expense into one character's build. Heck, CMA's soft cap build cost me about $30 million when I made it and could be replicated for about 100 million today.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
CMA, you're spot on about the Tanker aura stuff, CI is much better than Dark or Fire. One thing I'd note though, if it doesn't matter how Veng'd up Nemesis get, Blazing Aura and Death Shroud will still hit normally. Nemesis Veng doesn't grant AoE defense.
Sunstormer, Are you really advocating using Burn to keep aggro? Unless by keep aggro you mean scatter to the four winds and suddenly find the Blaster who just lobbed a Fireball much more interesting.
Edit: Burn is also not autohit. It's got good accuracy but drop it next to something way above your level, you'll see far fewer ticks.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
Whilst I know there is a little bit of trying to teach eachother how to suck eggs between us. I just want to clarify something where you wouldn't consider tanking AVs without being attacked a best method because the team is losing out on your damage input. This depends on the team make up as it may not be typically the most preferable team make up. The fact that you are directing damage away from the team or nullifying an AVs attack chain can mean that the team does more damage within a set period. I couldn't always put a tanker damage output over other peoples in the team purely because they do more damage and to do more damage they need to survive by any means. Sometimes you have to sacrifice some personal damage dealing in order for the rest of the team to perform better. The job of tanks is to redirect damage from team not have it land squarely on the team.
|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
For example, you can tank AVs without ever being attacked, but I wouldn't consider that the best method. Why? The team is losing out on your damage output - the AV would die quicker if you were in melee range dealing damage.
|
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
You sound like a willpower player.
|
Originally Posted by Kitty
okay I know the title sounds a bit silly, but what I am looking for is just the best primary for survivability, just whatever will live longest
I like the idea of WP/SS, but if there is anything better then please let me know I will fully IO the toon, so i'm looking for whichever toon is best with IO's to make it unstoppable thanks,  |
Quote:
With regards to Dark and Fire doing a better job at holding aggro than say Ice. I disagree. -Tohit can happen and ticks can miss.
|
Originally Posted by Sunstormer
Dark and fire do a much better job at this and can live longer too... |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
I don't completely disagree but years ago I tested this with a friend and we had what we worked out to be equal slotting. You can jump into some groups and actually share the aggro. Different enemy groups will debuff and change the results but I would agree that Ice is on the whole better.
|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Now I won't argue that Dark & Fire are quite competent at getting and holding aggro but their auras aren't as efficient as Ice. If you don't believe me then team with an Ice tanker and try it out. Both of you jump into a group and see who gets the aggro. I guarantee it'll be the Ice tank. An Ice tank is as supreme in his area of excellence as a Granite tank is in his.
|
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
In my experience, who aggroes first (with an aggro power or attack, and not just the enemy seeing you) tends to be more important than who has the most aggro potential.
If you enter the groups at the same time you can actually share as in some of what could go for the other don't. The guy I did this with was very surprised.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I've found that keeping a sizable amount of AAO fodder isn't that tough on my BS/SD scrapper; my tank has leveled exclusively with SG buddies so I haven't really run him much solo but it isn't a real problem to gather enough mobs together for Combustion/Shield Charge/Fire Sword Circle. True, after that combination and the pain the rest of the team dishes out there's not much left so you move on to the next group and rinse/repeat Combustion/FSC until SC is up again. . |
ahhh see your talking one mob with a team..im talking one mob by yourself as your team makeup may differ..the issue is what happens when/if that mob is still going?.remember most will have bosses and sure you killed all the minions and almost all the lt's but then what?..this is where fire/fire benefits.see relying on aao for 2 bosses and maybe a lt wont get you hardly anything where fe is most likely still running after both drop bu off.and now you have to do it with just combustion and fsc cause the recharge on sc is silly.but not on a fire tank where i still have fireball still up again and can continue my chain with no issues and you cant with shields.
and being that fe and bu are up every mob and i have consume to help with aoe goodniess and end recovery where shield doesnt.plus my blazing aura still ticking off( means after a hub mob if you dont have any cabs you need to stop for a sec.which relying on cabs isnt best for anyone) the grander sceme is to fire.i have tried farming with most of my tanks including my ice tank. its mostly the small stuff that counts in the end between fire and shields but its damn close and trust me my shields is pimped out every bit as my fire tank so its a good comparision.
Quote:
Are you being sarcastic? if you had run any lv 50 TFs you would know that ice is worst tanking set there is. Because one lucky hit can flatten ice tank due to its lack of resisrtance, couple that with abundance of -def attacks some AVs have ice is not a good tanking set. You are better off running shield scrapper (Dr Aeon pawned our ice tank in STF last week, the scrapper picked him and tanked it without a hitch)...|
Originally Posted by dave_p
Invul & Ice would be a close second/third, because again, they're mostly tough enough, and grab aggro fast. They have a big hole to psi, which is often overstated, but still, it's there. |
Ice maybe good tanking set for running mishes (as long as you avoid mobs with +to hit like Vanguard or Ruluaru) but IMO its the worst tanking set there is.
RE the op:
If you have a few minutes check out the guide in my signature.
I have leveled every single tanker powerset to 50 primary and secondary.
The short version is every tank primary is plenty tough.
Which is toughest depends on the situation. Adding a substantial chunk of IOs will greatly increase the number of situations you can shine in. But every set has its kryptonite.
Enjoy your foray into the realm of tankers
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
Quote:
orly? I took an ice tank to 50 and I know no such thing.
|
Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
Are you being sarcastic? if you had run any lv 50 TFs you would know that ice is worst tanking set there is.
|
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
LOL, you have a talent for igniting firestorms. |
Originally Posted by Kitty
okay I know the title sounds a bit silly, but what I am looking for is just the best primary for survivability, just whatever will live longest
|
What you need to understand is that tanker survivability is a combination of the primary, the secondary, pool powers, and enhancers.
As stated, ANY tank will do well if played well and properly constructed with layered defenses combined with soft mitigation.
Quote:
| I like the idea of WP/SS, but if there is anything better then please let me know |
All else is secondary.That said, a WP/ss is a good combination. WP is a solid tanker primary that is very easy to use. Toggle-up and go. Yes, it is not a strong aggro-holder on it's own. Attack frequently for gauntlet, use taunt liberally, and learn the unparalled joy that is FootStomp.
You'd do just fine with it.
Quote:
|
I will fully IO the toon, so i'm looking for whichever toon is best with IO's to make it unstoppable thanks,
|
You'll have fun and do a good job. So go and do.
Quote:
I've seen SR scrappers deal with Aeon and co, so Icetanks don't have to be owned even without both defenders and controllers in the team.|
Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
Are you being sarcastic? if you had run any lv 50 TFs you would know that ice is worst tanking set there is. Because one lucky hit can flatten ice tank due to its lack of resisrtance, couple that with abundance of -def attacks some AVs have ice is not a good tanking set. You are better off running shield scrapper (Dr Aeon pawned our ice tank in STF last week, the scrapper picked him and tanked it without a hitch)...
|
Never judge something from someone in game and never underestimate others in what they and their teams can do on other servers. I see alot of people living in their own little boxes like it's the only box to live in following laws like they're the only laws that have to apply to others.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
SRs have Elude which ice tanks unfortunately do not have.
|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I've seen SR scrappers deal with Aeon and co, so Icetanks don't have to be owned even without both defenders and controllers in the team.
Never judge something from someone in game and never underestimate others in what they and their teams can do on other servers. I see alot of people living in their own little boxes like it's the only box to live in following laws like they're the only laws that have to apply to others. |
Thats no excuse. I didn't have elude on my SR and find my Ice much better at tanking.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Difference being def debuffs which are far too prevalent among AVs (Silver mantis, Captain Mako,Scirocco and Aeon's Clones). Elude being tier 9 gives excellent resistance to it combine with other SR powers i believe you have close to 100% resis to def debuff.
|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Thats no excuse. I didn't have elude on my SR and find my Ice much better at tanking.
|
Quote:
I've run plenty of lvl 50 TFs. I've seen many Ice tanks in action. However, I will say, Ice is the only primary I do not run myself, so my perception on Ice may be skewed. Having said that, they have the best aggro auras in the game, which is why I ranked them highly. Unlike you, I've seen Ice tankers tank STFs just fine so I don't see why they'd have trouble w/anything else. Still, I don't run Ice myself, so I'll let others defend the toughness, or lack thereof, of that set. *shrugs*
|
Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
Are you being sarcastic? if you had run any lv 50 TFs you would know that ice is worst tanking set there is. Because one lucky hit can flatten ice tank due to its lack of resisrtance, couple that with abundance of -def attacks some AVs have ice is not a good tanking set. You are better off running shield scrapper (Dr Aeon pawned our ice tank in STF last week, the scrapper picked him and tanked it without a hitch)...
|
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Quote:
Elude is not the only part of the equation, however. Ice Tankers can get to the def cap as well, can pick up higher resists, and have higher HP as well. Access to Dull Pain and Hibernate make it even better. |
Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
Difference being def debuffs which are far too prevalent among AVs (Silver mantis, Captain Mako,Scirocco and Aeon's Clones). Elude being tier 9 gives excellent resistance to it combine with other SR powers i believe you have close to 100% resis to def debuff.
|
SR pretty much only has Elude to turn to if it starts hitting the fan... Heal Self can only do so much (and if you're at the point where you need it, you may not be able to fire it off). Sure, SR is quite resilient, but it can quickly turn around if you get hit (and it does happen, even at the def cap). Not as much of an issue for an Ice Tank.
And yes, well-played and built Scrappers can survive a lot- but I would still want a well-played tanker for picking up aggro.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
SR can hit 95% defense debuff resists without the use of elude.
So far I've run SR to 50 twice and I am working on it a thrid time.
Love it great set, but a durable armor set does not a tanker make.
It is not simply a question of how often you get hit.
Sometimes the RNG decides to hate you or a foe has a major tohit buff (quatz emenators or nemesis veng) SR has little or nothing besides player awareness to counter this.
Put an Ice tank in the same situation. He has.
-dmg and-recharge in Chilling Embrace (both effectively acting like +resist).
Dull Pain, which most Icers treat as a massive heal rather than a max hp power.
Much higher HP than a scrapper or brute in the first place.
Some resists which SR only gets after its taking dmg.
And Hibernate which is essentially an I win button. I have heard folks complain about losing aggro while phased but I helped a friend do some testing and discovered that either slotting the heal/recovery portion so you can exit sooner or slotting some taunt duration in taunt and/or auras will prevent you from losing aggro while your catching your breath.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
Stone hands down is the longest living and best surviving tank set. But as to the comments about WP beein a good second, I have to disagree and say that an Ice Tank can outsurvive WP. It's much easier to softcap and HP cap, plus it actualy benefits from recharge. And when the **** hits the ceiling fan, Hibernoob it. With two Taunt Auras it is also the best aggro bot in the game. I dream of a day where i can have Ice/Spine tanks
If you are looking for the tankiest tank, then stone is your choice.
Other sets are great fun and can be very sturdy, but stone is the toughest.
Its just in reality, other builds are more maneuverable when it counts which is why more people dont play stone.