Defender Vs. Corruptor
By
Biospark,
Posted on: 2010-05-01 19:42 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I would have to agree on Arctic Mastery. I was able to get away with it for my AR/Dev by explaining that his sister, a long established magic origin character of mine (the de-facto magician, if you will) taught him to utilize his natural arcane talents, which manifested in ice mastery.
While wielding a gun, setting up tactical explosions, possessing at least four robotic prosthetic, and shooting magic, I still have the audacity to call this character 'Natural'.
... Like I said, it's a creative mental exercise.
Arctic Mastery can nearly replace your entire secondary its' mitigation is so good. It puts /Ice to shame and is the primary reason I would never pick that secondary, it's damage mitigation be damned. The only power I don't really like in the set is Hibernation, and even then I could find a use for it.
I'm not sure handwaving the greater values defs have on everything by simply stating "corrs can just pick scorp shield" is really addressing the matter.
A corr can get Scorp Shield at the opportunity cost of 32% res. In the case of a defender it will be at 43% res (s/l).
Scorp Shield is awesome for allowing "cheap" ways to achieve high mitigation, but if you are spending the inf and reach softcapped def anyway like a defender can with the higher values then the loss of that resistance is now pretty significant.
Case in point my fire/traps has softcapped: s/l/e/ranged - 12.7% res s/l
My traps/sonic (will have) softcapped: s/l/e/n/p/f/c/range/melee/aoe AND 65.3% res s/l.
Also the def has much stronger -dam debuffs in seekers adding even more survivability.
Basically the defender will eclipse the corr when it comes to mitigation, but the corr (being fire) does a lot more damage. However, if the corr had a matching blast set that damage advantage would be more or less gone... especially with soul drain recharging twice as fast for defenders.
To be fair, given what happened to Dominator Soul Drain, the recharge on the Defender version is almost certainly an oversight.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
Ya I think so too. Unfortunately it is pretty nice on a 2 min timer and pretty lame on a 4 min timer. so if/when it gets changed it is not going to be very fun.|
Originally Posted by Silas
To be fair, given what happened to Dominator Soul Drain, the recharge on the Defender version is almost certainly an oversight.
|
I personally don't have an issue with a power that inherits such high risk to use being used well on squishy AT's, but I do understand that generally epic powers have upwards of double the rech of the normal version...
Quote:
As I said (albeit very briefly), without going through every single Primary/Secondary for both AT's, I can't come to a conclusion either way. I would have to sit down and make a comparative build of everything to decide that "this has better survivability with scorpion shield" or "this is buffed by defender so much that it is better." I am going to assume that sets that start with fairly large numbers of defense gain favor on a defender because of the nature of buff values, but even that is just guessing until I make an actual comparison of every single combination for both AT's that I consider fairly balanced, which is not something I'm going to do unless I'm actually going to play as the set. Call me self-centered, but I like what little mental stability I have left. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I'm not sure handwaving the greater values defs have on everything by simply stating "corrs can just pick scorp shield" is really addressing the matter.
A corr can get Scorp Shield at the opportunity cost of 32% res. In the case of a defender it will be at 43% res (s/l). Scorp Shield is awesome for allowing "cheap" ways to achieve high mitigation, but if you are spending the inf and reach softcapped def anyway like a defender can with the higher values then the loss of that resistance is now pretty significant. Case in point my fire/traps has softcapped: s/l/e/ranged - 12.7% res s/l My traps/sonic (will have) softcapped: s/l/e/n/p/f/c/range/melee/aoe AND 65.3% res s/l. Also the def has much stronger -dam debuffs in seekers adding even more survivability. Basically the defender will eclipse the corr when it comes to mitigation, but the corr (being fire) does a lot more damage. However, if the corr had a matching blast set that damage advantage would be more or less gone... especially with soul drain recharging twice as fast for defenders. |
I've never found resistance on a squishy overly useful, which is primarily why I ran over to Corr's to see if they had a defense toggle, and sure enough they did. When I build for defense, my primary concern is evading mez effects, as these are usually the quickest method to my downfall. Resistance has no method of addressing this problem, and you will get hit with mez effects of every variant more often, resulting in a lot of cascade failure that can make your resistance seem paltry. Defense, on the other hand, has the ability to evade the mez effect entirely, while simultaneously reducing the amount of incoming damage. While I am in no way stating that defense is entirely safe from mez effects either, you are hit with them with far less frequency than if you had only gathered resistance. As such I consider defense the true method of mitigation building for a squishy, with resistance being nice to have until such a point that the squishy in question actually HAS mez protection, at which point I am prompted to take another look at which value is giving me the most benefit.
Keep in mind too that, given the way defense and resistance are calculated, significantly lower values of defense are equal to comparatively higher levels of resistance. What I mean by this is that when calculating To-Hit "most" enemies only have a 50% chance to hit you to begin with, where as they will "always" do 100% damage to a resistance set. For defense, half of the work has already been done for you by the enemies own incompetence. We could infer that 2 defense = 1 resistance, and thus Scorpion Shields 12.8% defense vs, say, Charged Armour's 20.2% actually has a 2%-ish value advantage in Scorpion Shield's favor. We'd probably be wrong in several cases, but we could infer that.
Scorpion Shield is a point in Corr's favor, but I in no way mean to imply that it is the leading factor that allows Corr to stomp all over Defender's lovely rose garden. It is definitely worth addressing, but until I've personally gone through and done a numerical analysis, I'm not going to say anything other than "it seems like it's easier to build defense for a Corr because of Scorpion Shield."
Quote:
All depends on your mode of thinking from what iv seen and experianced.|
Originally Posted by theduke24
Ok, so i just rolled a Dark/Dark fender and cor, and i want to know which is better. I know that Fenders get the buffs to the secondary effects, and they just recently got a damage boost, but is the damage output better than cors now?
help!  |
If you want a Damage Defender, go with Kin/Dark or Cold/Ice.
If you want a DeBuffing/Buffing Corr, play a Dark Miasma.
I make these types of suggjestions because while both ATs have a diffrent mode of Primary/Secondary Numbers and levels you gain powers.They still have the capacity to do both just fine.Provided you build for such things.
Even bofore the change to Defenders iv been able to solo 8 man mob missions with bosses with a Cold/Ice Defender.
Granted that not everyone knows the secrects to how to solo with Defenders, it makes it a topic of they lack damage.Which simply isnt that true.Now with the inherant changes to Defenders, my soloing will be far easier then before.
Theres only 2 Corrs ill play.Pain Secondary, which I havnt made one yet, and a Fire/Thermal Corr.Simply because Defenders dont get those sets.
Quote:
Definitely, it is significantly easier to build s/l (and energy too) on to a corr. It tends to be about 33% easier to build all the other defenses onto a defender.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
As I said (albeit very briefly), without going through every single Primary/Secondary for both AT's, I can't come to a conclusion either way. I would have to sit down and make a comparative build of everything to decide that "this has better survivability with scorpion shield" or "this is buffed by defender so much that it is better." I am going to assume that sets that start with fairly large numbers of defense gain favor on a defender because of the nature of buff values, but even that is just guessing until I make an actual comparison of every single combination for both AT's that I consider fairly balanced, which is not something I'm going to do unless I'm actually going to play as the set. Call me self-centered, but I like what little mental stability I have left.
I've never found resistance on a squishy overly useful, which is primarily why I ran over to Corr's to see if they had a defense toggle, and sure enough they did. When I build for defense, my primary concern is evading mez effects, as these are usually the quickest method to my downfall. Resistance has no method of addressing this problem, and you will get hit with mez effects of every variant more often, resulting in a lot of cascade failure that can make your resistance seem paltry. Defense, on the other hand, has the ability to evade the mez effect entirely, while simultaneously reducing the amount of incoming damage. While I am in no way stating that defense is entirely safe from mez effects either, you are hit with them with far less frequency than if you had only gathered resistance. As such I consider defense the true method of mitigation building for a squishy, with resistance being nice to have until such a point that the squishy in question actually HAS mez protection, at which point I am prompted to take another look at which value is giving me the most benefit. Keep in mind too that, given the way defense and resistance are calculated, significantly lower values of defense are equal to comparatively higher levels of resistance. What I mean by this is that when calculating To-Hit "most" enemies only have a 50% chance to hit you to begin with, where as they will "always" do 100% damage to a resistance set. For defense, half of the work has already been done for you by the enemies own incompetence. We could infer that 2 defense = 1 resistance, and thus Scorpion Shields 12.8% defense vs, say, Charged Armour's 20.2% actually has a 2%-ish value advantage in Scorpion Shield's favor. We'd probably be wrong in several cases, but we could infer that. Scorpion Shield is a point in Corr's favor, but I in no way mean to imply that it is the leading factor that allows Corr to stomp all over Defender's lovely rose garden. It is definitely worth addressing, but until I've personally gone through and done a numerical analysis, I'm not going to say anything other than "it seems like it's easier to build defense for a Corr because of Scorpion Shield." |
If you are building from the ground up on a toon with no innate defense scorp shield is a huge leg up.
FWIW if Def's every get a s/l defense shield it will probably be ~17% base. That will be pretty crazy though as just the shield+weave+1 slotted cj+steadfast will give 40% def. Not entirely unlike how trivially easy it is to cap s/l on a /stone app troller (16% base).
I'll honestly be a bit surprised if defs don't get some kind of defense based shield in GR though as they are the only squishies that don't have one now.
Quote:
Yeah, I loved it on my Fire/Psi. With his level of recharge it was only a few seconds off perma. Problem was, at that time with old Domination and stacking, he got barely any damage buff from it. If it had that kind of recharge now it would be stupid-good. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Ya I think so too. Unfortunately it is pretty nice on a 2 min timer and pretty lame on a 4 min timer. so if/when it gets changed it is not going to be very fun.
I personally don't have an issue with a power that inherits such high risk to use being used well on squishy AT's, but I do understand that generally epic powers have upwards of double the rech of the normal version... |
As it stands now, its a zomgawesome buff that is only up just under half the time if you've got more recharge than God. On characters without absurd levels of recharge it's almost not even worth it.
I've long since deleted my D4, do Soul Drain and Dark Consumption still crit? Lazy ports are the funniest ports :3
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
A large part of me hopes that Defender's see this kind of Ancillary Shield added, but I am not holding my breath on whether or not it will be one of the "funky-looking" Ice or Earth armors. I completely agree with Sarrate regarding the Ancillary powers. You can min-max all that you want, but at the end of the day (For Me) the powers have to fit the concept.
|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Definitely, it is significantly easier to build s/l (and energy too) on to a corr. It tends to be about 33% easier to build all the other defenses onto a defender.
If you are building from the ground up on a toon with no innate defense scorp shield is a huge leg up. FWIW if Def's every get a s/l defense shield it will probably be ~17% base. That will be pretty crazy though as just the shield+weave+1 slotted cj+steadfast will give 40% def. Not entirely unlike how trivially easy it is to cap s/l on a /stone app troller (16% base). I'll honestly be a bit surprised if defs don't get some kind of defense based shield in GR though as they are the only squishies that don't have one now. |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
It would make sense, especially now that anyone can buy a 16% S/L Def shield for mere inf.
(Or just hang out in a PVP zone for 21 days, followed by an Arena...)
Quote:
^|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
It would make sense, especially now that anyone can buy a 16% S/L Def shield for mere inf.
(Or just hang out in a PVP zone for 21 days, followed by an Arena...) |
HUH ? Please explain Dr.Mike
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
It would appear that temp power recipes are dropping like candy. I don't know if this is working as intended or not, but if so, it will very drastically change the game.
Corruptors will have the damage edge simply because of higher cap and higher base damage in most cases. The exceptions are almost exclusive to sets like Radiation Emition and Kinetics where there is a massive difference in offensive benefits defenders receive compared to what a corruptors would get.
Personally I still think Corruptors compliment a team far better than a defender. Sure their support numbers aren't as good, but their damage/support values end up being a lot more balanced out without overshooting buff/debuff caps too much. For example, a single kinetics defender can damage cap a team where it would take 2 kinetic corrs to do so, but the 2 kinetic corrs bring more damage to the team than 2 kinetic defenders. As the team gets bigger and more varied in abilities, the value of the corruptor shines brighter than the defender.
in most cases,
Solo: Defenders = Corruptors
small teams: Defenders > Corruptors
big teams: Defenders < Corruptors
In many cases you are looking at things like a defender supplying 7.5% more res debuff than a corr.
7.5*8 = 60% more force mulitplaction that a corrs "higher" damage will need to make up for. That typically won't happen until you are exceed the defender damage cap and into the realm of the higher corruptor ceiling.
In any event, they are pretty interchangable, similar to brutes and scrappers there are some combos that shine more for the particular AT, but at the end of the day most teams are going to really struggle seeing the difference if you sub one in for the other.
The notable exception is fire blast. It is vastly superior for dealing damage and even when defs get it they won't have a triple scourging rain of fire that checks scourge every tick capable of bringing entire spawns down.
Quote:
On bigger teams the likelyhood of having capped damage is very high since +tohit, +dmg, and +def are the most common buffs around. It's a pretty common scenario as team size increases.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
In many cases you are looking at things like a defender supplying 7.5% more res debuff than a corr.
7.5*8 = 60% more force mulitplaction that a corrs "higher" damage will need to make up for. That typically won't happen until you are exceed the defender damage cap and into the realm of the higher corruptor ceiling. |
Quote:
| In any event, they are pretty interchangable, similar to brutes and scrappers there are some combos that shine more for the particular AT, but at the end of the day most teams are going to really struggle seeing the difference if you sub one in for the other. |
Quote:
| The notable exception is fire blast. It is vastly superior for dealing damage and even when defs get it they won't have a triple scourging rain of fire that checks scourge every tick capable of bringing entire spawns down. |
Quote:
While kins (cause unless you have a buttload of rads/emps/therms you aren't riding at cap) are popular I wouldn't say it is common to be above 400% damage, but ymmv and depends if you pug vs regular team I imagine.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
On bigger teams the likelyhood of having capped damage is very high since +tohit, +dmg, and +def are the most common buffs around. It's a pretty common scenario as team size increases.
|
Quote:
| on teams with very little support buffs/debuffs flying around, I would be inclined to agree, but buffs/debuffs have a far lower ceiling on when they become obsolete than raw damage. In a most extreme example, 8 rad corrs have the same protection and benefits as 8 rad defenders but still deal far more damage as a team. Thing is that each support set tends to specialize too much in one effect, that they tend to lose value when that effect is already capped or near capped, at which point raw damage trumps support advantages. FF and Dark tend to be the worst offenders in these cases but it happens to Kinetics and some other sets as well. |
base+buff+debuff
0.75*(1.95+1.6)*2.8 = 7.455
vs
0.65*(1.95+2)*3.4 = 8.73
They only match defenders vs bosses or higher for the 17% scourge rate.
-res has a 300% cap, that is not a low ceiling in any way shape or form. It's roughly equivalent to +600% damage in most situations. Which is only applicable for one AT in the game. Buffing has a much lower ceiling than debuffing in terms of raw speed and debuffing is where you tend to feel the difference in the two AT's (like I pointed out in my last post) Like you said though, one kin def can cap the team, where it usually takes two kin corrs, those other 7 spots can be spent on debuffers.
How many tohit debuffing corrs to floor +4's? How many defs to do the same? Corrs don't really have defense buffers sooo they are going to be relying on tohit debuffs.
But like I said, you'll be very hard pressed to notice the difference in a team because they are so interchangeable unless you are pressing above the defender damage cap, which depending on who you play with is either every team for you, or sometimes for the rest of us. And even then the superior -res of the defender all but negates the extra personal damage the corr does on a team, which I already highlighted.
Quote:
| not really, Sonic will still be king for Defenders because of the higher res debuff value. |
Actually, I just ported fire to defs for fun. Sonic will need to maintain 4 stacks of -20% res to keep up. I have a lot of sonic experience and that just isn't that common. Not impossible by any means, just not that common.
I think it'll come down to this when GR hits (because it's how it'll work for me)...
BrandX: Team looking for Buffer/Debuffer.
Buffer/Debuffer: ME!!!!!!!!
<invite sent>
Of course, I usually just say lf1m and roll with it. But my mains tend to be buffer/debuffers...soooo...I can get away with it >_> Waaaaait a minute. Why have I stopped playing my scrappers so much.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Exactly, which coincidentally enough is how it happens in the co-op zones now.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I think it'll come down to this when GR hits (because it's how it'll work for me)...
BrandX: Team looking for Buffer/Debuffer. Buffer/Debuffer: ME!!!!!!!! <invite sent> |
Dark/dark/dark def lf team...
Oh sorry we are only accepting dark/dark/soul corruptors.
Even at the damage cap a corr w/ scourge factored in deals ~1.5 x as much damage as a defender, but that difference is still just a drop in the bucket that is the entire teams capped damage output. If you are on a team that can notice the loss of ~3% of the total team damage then wow. Especially because if that defender has a res debuff it is more than likely made up...and then some.
What I've done is just rolled and leveled both. They have kind of different playstyles, the way I play them. So it feels like 2 differnt chars. I play my defender as a troller and my cor as, well, a cor. I wanna stick with the d3 concept but I'm thinking about rolling a fire/dark/scorp shield cor for pvp. Cuz I like range and I'm new to pvp and it just sounds like it'd work out.(bit I hate being like everyone else and rolling a Dom, stalker or blaster for pvp, I like being unique :P, and yes ik, fire dark is common in pve but this is pvp)
Always remember.....this game favors heroes over villains, so yes, defenders will always be better than a corruptor....Always!
Night Goblin 35 lvl BS/Regen Scrapper
Slag Heap 38 lvl Fire/Axe Tanker
Energy Anomoly 23 lvl Energy/Energy Blaster
help!
I do not solo much so I can not say the new inherent is a big change to my game.