RP builds that are More RP and Less 'effective'
By
BBQ_Pork,
Posted on: 2010-04-26 16:39 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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This is basically what I do. If there are a few abilities that are absolutely vital to concept, then they are irreplaceable to me. Even if there are more optimal choices. But then I tend to do everything in my power to maximize performance.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Concept first. Then maximize performance based on that concept.
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If a concept ever becomes 'unplayable' to the point where I'm not having fun, then I'll either revisit it or just not play the character.
The Ballad of Iron Percy
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Originally Posted by Substrate
Here is something that popped into my head while reading the thread about What if I didn't take my ally rez? and made me think. There have been times when I have skipped powers for Theme/RP reasons. Like I have a Grav/Kin that has only 3 kin powers and does not have SB.
So the question. Just how far are you willing to go to keep a character within your roleplay theme? Have you made unplayable characters to stay on theme? Do you feel Theme should take a back seat to effectiveness of the build? With the new options for power customization do you take powers and recolor them to act as other powers for theme (ie Dark/Dark colored red to make a blood mage)? Just curious. |
Two words.
"Dual builds."
That said, it's pretty much impossible to make an "unplayable" character. As far as "effectiveness," I don't play a numbers game, trying to squeeze every last DPE/DPS/SPE/MIC/KEY/MOUSE out of a character. I play for fun. (Yes, I know that numbers game is fun for some. Not me.)
If anything, I end up stalling on the occasional concept trying to find "what fits best."
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Two words:|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Two words.
"Dual builds." |
"Too expensive."
Well, not really, but in my opinion, it's too expensive for too small of a benefit. I generally have enough influence/merits to IO out one build on a character, and given the choice, I'll do it for my concept build. Most of the time, that means even a "team friendly" version would be worse for the team than the IO'd concept build where I skipped hasten, the rez, SB, or whatever else we're quibbling about.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I've gotten flack from having both the Flight and Teleportation pools on my grav/rad troller who is a sentient black hole - even if the only power he has from Flight is Hover (will probably take Air Superiority at some point too, since I hear it's good DPS). But even so, did these people not realize how useful Hover is on an all-range squishy? Nonetheless, having Hover on at all times (which it is) is a bit of a strain on the endurance, so I figure it still counts.
Also, on my Crab, I took all the available slicey-with-the-spider-legs melee attacks despite hearing they're kinda meh, since she's supposed to be a Freakshow Meat Doctor with stolen Arachnos tech, and the first thing I think of when it comes to that particular enemy is slicey melee attacks.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Two words:
"Too expensive." Well, not really, but in my opinion, it's too expensive for too small of a benefit. I generally have enough influence/merits to IO out one build on a character... |
Why does everyone want to insist they have to IO out characters? And both builds? I have yet to have anyone complain that (for instance) my Dark/Therm Corr's team build is mostly SOs. They're glad to have shields, buffs, and healing on top of extra damage regardless. (The other build is solo and closer to "concept," of course, dipping into Presence for both fears, for instance.)
IO out the "true" character if you want - the concept build, most likely - and SO or "cheap frankenslot" out the other.
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Either I wasn't clear enough, or you stopped reading where you stopped quoting. When I do as you are suggesting, the "true" character ends up better for the team than the "cheap frankenslot team build."|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
IO out the "true" character if you want - the concept build, most likely - and SO or "cheap frankenslot" out the other.
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Not to mention that the concept build is still more fun.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Ok, my "concept" example.
I have an idea for a gun-based herone, but not one that would necessarily shoot every vandal on the street--- following the rules of law and really trying to use the "minimal force necessary.
I could go martial arts scrapper with a pistol temp power that she uses as a last resort, but I'd much rather have her be a dual pistols/devices blaster with a strong selection from the fighting pool... reasonably slotted... and probably at the cost of devices that she wouldn't conceptually use- trip mines, time bombs, & gun drones.
That's not necessarily gimped, but not running at 100% high-octane performance, either.
Personally, I have no problem with this. The game bores me to death on 8-man steamroller teams, so I'm not really interested in that. She'd be fine in teams with my wife and friends, who also shrug off the "maximizing" of builds as largely irrelevant.
I wouldn't volunteer her ON Pugs with total strangers, though- she'd be a little too different from what they'd expect & I've seen enough intolerance voiced on the boards not to bother risking it.
It's not really RP or themed but ever since I saw how cool Mako's patron powers looked it became hard to think up reasons not to take them 
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Originally Posted by Decorum
This is CoX. You really have to go way out of your way to make a character truly "unplayable". Flexibility FTW!
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This
Thelonious Monk
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The limitation of your imagination is not my problem.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
That's not true. If your character's concept cannot bring people back from the dead (or near death), then I don't care how you color it. It won't fit the theme.
Another good example I can think of is my all human peacebringer. He is a kheldian merged with a photo-electric AI with a robotic shell around it. Since the object he merged with is non-organic, he cannot leave this robotic shell without dire consequences (No shapeshifts, but lightform is ok because of the time limit and crash). I have rationalized though. I've got an AR/EM who's not supposed to be super at all. A few of the EM attacks I took as "martial arts training." |
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Luckily, your intolerance is not my problem.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
The limitation of your imagination is not my problem.
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Your statement would be valid, except it's not a limit of imagination.
If I imagine my character to find reanimation/resurrection morally objectionable, nothing can reconcile that.
If Father Xmas imagines his character to be only capable of shifting luck and not granting power, nothing can reconcile that.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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However, there is a distinction between "Deliberate gimping" and "failing to min-max to the fifteenth decimal point" that some people fail to recognize. For example, back when Integration and Instant Healing from Regeneration were both toggles, I built a Katana/Regen Scrapper around the concept of relying entirely on healing, and deliberately avoided the Tough/Weave combination from the Fighting pool, as well as Moment of Glory. Was he 'gimped'? I had some people tell me that I 'needed' to take both Tough and Weave. But he was a ton of fun to play -- learning how big a spawn he could jump into and expect to be able to take down enough mobs to reduce his incoming damage to something his healing could keep up with before the incoming damage ran him out of hit points was challenging. And it could be nailbiting to realize a couple of seconds into a fight that I judged wrong, or the mobs got lucky with extra hits, and I'm looking at a dirtnap, and then have a couple of well-timed criticals tip the balance back the other way. And I liked the 'hands off' character of the secondary, letting me start all the defenses and then concentrating on fighting.|
Originally Posted by Kasoh
I never let concept get in the way of effectiveness in comabt. The closest I came was thinking about skipping the fire sword powers on a fire tank...but I chose to be effective instead.
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With the way that Regeneration has become a lot more 'clicky', I'm probably going to scavenge the character and reroll him as a /Willpower
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
Um wow seems my simple curiosity spawned more responses then I figured it would.
And let me say I was not suggesting building for theme meant gimping your build. Just wondering what extremes people have taken to stay on theme. I don't think I have ever got a character to be unplayable while sticking to theme.
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Vary vary true. It is really hard to do but I've seen a few in the wild that have been pretty close. I do have to admit I did have a petless mastermind for awhile that was harsh to play but sort of fun mostly just did solo missions with him.|
Originally Posted by Decorum
This is CoX. You really have to go way out of your way to make a character truly "unplayable". Flexibility FTW!
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Instead of just selecting less-than-optimal powers for concept/RP purposes I actually wish this game would go one step further and allow us to have real Disadvantages (i.e. Superman being vulnerable to Kryptonite). I think it would add a cool layer of "comicbook realism" to the game and force you to have to be tactically smart about what you tried to jump into.
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Originally Posted by The_Fallen_Angel
a few years ago I had a character with out a travel power and did not really have an issue until I hit IP....my sg had 4 characters running with him that had all had tp friend and they all forgot about me...so after that I deleted him...
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Well a "gimped" my Ill/Kin Controller by not taking Increased Density, Speed Boost or Inertial Reduction because I'm playing her kinetic powers as a form of shifting luck and therefore she can't "grant" teammates effects that she can't "shift" from an opponent. She also doesn't have Repel.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Concept first. Then maximize performance based on that concept.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
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"Too expensive." |
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
The limitation of your imagination is not my problem.
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Thanks for all the replies this has turned out to be a fun read guys.
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So long as one equated defeat with death, sure.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Luckily, your intolerance is not my problem.
Your statement would be valid, except it's not a limit of imagination. If I imagine my character to find reanimation/resurrection morally objectionable, nothing can reconcile that. |
If one equates it with unconciousness (or merely being incapacitated - still concious but unable to fight), you're there.
Or do you think your character would morally object to smelling salts?
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| If Father Xmas imagines his character to be only capable of shifting luck and not granting power, nothing can reconcile that. |
My own concept shifter was acutally pretty simple. I have a fire corrupter who uses caustic chemicals ratehr than heat - she throws volatile acids from her battlesuit. So, a simple color shift on the powerset was all that was required.
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
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True enough, but it happened to be the best example I could think of. Although, in my defense, the power in empathy is called resurrect, with the description text "Resurrects a fallen ally." Doesn't look like smelling salts to me. |
Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
So long as one equated defeat with death, sure.
If one equates it with unconciousness (or merely being incapacitated - still concious but unable to fight), you're there. Or do you think your character would morally object to smelling salts? |
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Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
Until one realizes that having more effective teammates is lucky.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I've battled with this for a few respecs now on my Claws/WP lycan huge modeled Brute. I like eviscerate, I can generally hit quite a few guys with it and it follows up spin nicely for maximum AoE +4/x8 carnage. BUT, it looks ridiculous and doesn't go at all with my concept/theme of a hulking werewolf brute. I hate shockwave, it's huge KB totally works against everything I'm trying to do with my tight AoE circles and RTTC from willpower. BUT, it totally looks awesome and so puts the exclamation point in my Broot Smash!!!
In my final build I went with Shockwave, concept > performance. Hell, I've lost interest in my FM/SD scrapper despite him being chock full of win and awesomesauce because I can't come up with a costume/concept I'm happy with.
I'm a concept player all the way...
However, I really haven't ever run into any problems with it.
I've had a natural archery/devices with no travel power.
Although, slotted sprint and hurdle is actually a pretty good travel power... plus ninja run now and I feel like I'm cheating the concept, actually, hehe... Although, it still feels right for the character, just a bit too effective (I might un-slot sprint and hurdle, hehe).
Honestly, I always imagined he used grappling hooks and whatnot... So, Super Jump may have worked, but I enjoy the sprint/hurdle build and it provides that fun bit of challenge getting from rooftop to rooftop that Super Jump makes super easy.
I've definitely made characters less effective due to concept... As in not picking certain pool powers that would be better numbers-wise.
Shield Defense / Super Strength Tanker taking Jump Kick and not taking Combat Jumping purely for concept/style reasons. Not just the build... But there is no reason ever for me to use Jump Kick... Yet, I do for the visual flavor.
Actually, that's probably more where concept over numbers comes into play for me... how I play, not so much my build.
The same SD/SS character avoids getting wet at all costs.
I don't really bend my character's personalities to fit into just playing the game. I truly enjoy playing the character and witnessing that character going through whatever the session throws at him. If I am not doing that... I'd probably rather not play
Anyways... Concept driven build, always for me. However, most of my concepts have fit nicely with the powersets and the game.
And my main is an Electric/Electric/Electric Blaster (Blaptroller) So... I'm used to adapting and whatnot.
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And this, 100% |
Originally Posted by Decorum
This is CoX. You really have to go way out of your way to make a character truly "unplayable". Flexibility FTW!
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Originally Posted by Quaver
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I prefer playing and teaming with RP'ing/concept toons by a long shot. Even if they're unorthodox to the point of being counterproductive, it just sets the bar higher. Adapting is what makes this game fun (for me), not cycling through chains of attacks. Also forcing powers into your existing concept is quite fun, bends the imagination... |
I think we'd enjoy you playing with us at The Paragon Universe
And anyone else here that'd be interested, of course.
Not that anyone needs to join to play with us, not at all!
If you play on Virtue, give a shout!
@Zethustra
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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And... the reverse is true as well...|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
You can rationalize any power into any theme. Saying you can't is a cop-out.
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You can rationalize any power out of any theme.
Who is saying anyone can't do whatever they want?
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I find efficient characters fun to play and inefficient ones tedious, so not very far, usually.|
Originally Posted by Substrate
So the question. Just how far are you willing to go to keep a character within your roleplay theme?
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I do have one 'RP' character, my ninja blade/willpower stalker, who I envisioned as a 'regular guy' with a sword. So no travel powers, and I tabbed WP as being the least graphically obtrusive secondary (this was before power customization- now it's totally invisible which is even better).
The concept didn't really impact his power level at all, it just made getting around a bit slower...and then along came Ninja Run. =P
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Yes I have a WP/DB tank that is vary much the action hero. I did not take any travel powers for him and have the WP effects turned off. Hes really fun to play too and yes Ninja run was a nice thing to come along for him but it something I only really use for zone crossing. Oddly dropping the travel power has actually made him better then my other WP toon. Picked up stamina sooner then needed becuase of it and frees up two power slots for wiggle room on the build (don't have city traveler yet).
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I do have one 'RP' character, my ninja blade/willpower stalker, who I envisioned as a 'regular guy' with a sword. So no travel powers, and I tabbed WP as being the least graphically obtrusive secondary (this was before power customization- now it's totally invisible which is even better).
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I don't look at the numbers to know if my character would be more or less effective when I choose some powers.
There have been times I've built, say a defender, to be solo more than team oriented. But with dual builds I have tried to minimize that.
Or taken the Patron powers I enjoy seeing more probably at the cost of being more powerful. But I think the difference isn't likely all that great in this case.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I did something like that 6 years ago but it was because I didn't have a clue and was curious about the travel powers.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
I once saw a player pick powers from Flight, Leap and Teleport instead of Storm Summoning and Electric Blast powers. I asked if the player understood how badly they'd hamstrung their gaming experience and received "I know, but this is the way I wanted to build my character."
I couldn't argue with that. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Yeah but on a team there is less need of super-ness too. At least the ones I get on seem to steamroll everything in sight.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Two words:
"Too expensive." Well, not really, but in my opinion, it's too expensive for too small of a benefit. I generally have enough influence/merits to IO out one build on a character, and given the choice, I'll do it for my concept build. Most of the time, that means even a "team friendly" version would be worse for the team than the IO'd concept build where I skipped hasten, the rez, SB, or whatever else we're quibbling about. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
I tend to go about this in a somewhat backwardish way. I generally start with a concept that gives me a spectrum of possible ATs and powersets that could be used to express that concept. From that spectrum, I pick the AT and sets that have the right look and feel for the character, and good performance and synergy. I then optimize my build around the strong points of synergy that those sets have to offer. Where I use IOs, I tend to build on the existing strengths of the AT and sets instead of adding capabilities not naturally present. The end result of this process is usually a good, solid, but not hyperoptimized build.
For me, the advantage is twofold. First, on an aesthetic level, I like characters who are really good at one particular thing. Second, on a practical level, building on the inherent strengths of the powers I have available tends to insure my performance against future changes to powers or to IO sets.
As an example, I had a character in mind whose powers arose from manipulating entropy. Based on this, I chose to make an EM/DA Brute. Looking at the powers available to me, I noticed that EM and DA had a synergy in stun powers, so I took the stun powers from EM and DA and slotted sets that gave me bonuses to stun duration and recharge so that I could stun things faster and longer. When Total Focus had its stun magnitude reduced from 4 to 3, my character's performance was not significantly harmed because Oppressive Gloom and Total Focus still combined to let me stun bosses in one attack. Even if all set bonuses were stripped from the character, the level of performance would still be adequate for me because I made no build sacrifices for the sake of set bonuses.
It's not the most wildly clever or inventive methodology, but it's safe, effective, and makes me happy.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Concept first. Then maximize performance based on that concept.
Using my main as an example, he's a devil with wings. Flight is important. I've had to leave hasten out of the build due to spending an entire pool pick on Fly. (Just got the 60 month vet reward.)
Luckily for me, hasten on its own doesn't add anything to my build. It's not enough to get me the 303% recharge in Followup that I'd need for the FU, Slash, Focus, repeat attack chain, and the global recharge I have without hasten IS enough for FU, Slash, Focus, Swipe, repeat.
Be well, people of CoH.