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Well there's also the case to be made for benefit. If you don't rely on copying others to produce your own work, you'll improve and develop your own voice. If there's a shared community value that stealing is bad, then everyone involved has some protection and benefit.|
Originally Posted by Juggertha
But isn't that subjective as well? What is right to you, may not be right to another.
That's the whole flaw in this. What makes you think that your way is the only 'right' way? |
If stealing is seen as permissible, then one artist can directly benefit from the work of another. I need to do a Feral Kat commission? No problem, I grab one of Adam Hughes Catwoman pictures and do a paintover. With my level of ability at Photoshop, I could probably even do it in a way that concealed the rip-off of the original.
You say that the flaw in this discussion is that it presents only one right way. What other way are you advocating?
Here's a grey area:
I shoot somebody in my country in cold blood. I go to jail.
I shoot somebody in Japan in cold blood. I go to jail.
I shoot somebody in Germany in cold blood. I go to jail.
I shoot somebody in Brazil in cold blood. I tell the police that the guy offended me. I slip them some cash. I walk away.
Would it bother you if I argued that that last case wasn't really all that good, despite people having different values? Should the Brazil example be used to characterize the situation as a whole?
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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Yet you are using the term 'stealing' - that implies theft. Theft is a codified legal term that varies form one country to another. Do you 'steal' an image if you copy/paste it off of google? Are you 'stealing' from record companies if you record a tape off of the radio? Are you stealing my wife's virtue by staring at her?|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Well there's also the case to be made for benefit. If you don't rely on copying others to produce your own work, you'll improve and develop your own voice. If there's a shared community value that stealing is bad, then everyone involved has some protection and benefit.
If stealing is seen as permissible, then one artist can directly benefit from the work of another. I need to do a Feral Kat commission? No problem, I grab one of Adam Hughes Catwoman pictures and do a paintover. With my level of ability at Photoshop, I could probably even do it in a way that concealed the rip-off of the original. |
It's not always so black and white.
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| You say that the flaw in this discussion is that it presents only one right way. What other way are you advocating? |
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Here's a grey area: I shoot somebody in my country in cold blood. I go to jail. I shoot somebody in Japan in cold blood. I go to jail. I shoot somebody in Germany in cold blood. I go to jail. I shoot somebody in Brazil in cold blood. I tell the police that the guy offended me. I slip them some cash. I walk away. Would it bother you if I argued that that last case wasn't really all that good, despite people having different values? Should the Brazil example be used to characterize the situation as a whole? |
If you want to follow the laws and norms in your country... that sounds like a good idea. But for you to say that every other country should do the same, and then imply that they are lesser for being different, seems a bit off, no?
Copyright law is not universal, and if truth be told, it is somewhat new. The concept of being able to sue someone for taking your intellectual property has not been around for all that long - and many nations don't recognize it. Heck, one could argue that most civilizations were built on it.
But again, I want to state that I'm not here advocating for any type of theft - but I'm simply saying that your values may or may not be shared by everyone, and that there's lot's of room for interpretation within.
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Perhaps it was a poor example because it wasn't clear to you. By in cold blood I meant guilty. I just wanted the other person dead, no extenuating circumstances. It was pretty cut and dried.|
Poor example, and you know it. There can be various reasons/circumstances for shooting someone, and various countries have different laws on it (heck, if I'm not mistaken, even within the US it varies). It's never as cut and dry as you are proclaiming it to be. If you want to follow the laws and norms in your country... that sounds like a good idea. But for you to say that every other country should do the same, and then imply that they are lesser for being different, seems a bit off, no? |
I do think other countries SHOULD follow certain basic principles of human rights. If some nation instituted a policy of ethnic cleansing, I would definitely consider them lesser. I don't consider that a bit off. Sue me.
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Copyright law is not universal, and if truth be told, it is somewhat new. The concept of being able to sue someone for taking your intellectual property has not been around for all that long - and many nations don't recognize it. Heck, one could argue that most civilizations were built on it. But again, I want to state that I'm not here advocating for any type of theft - but I'm simply saying that your values may or may not be shared by everyone, and that there's lot's of room for interpretation within. |
I'm presenting guidelines for what I feel is good use of reference. Based on values that I believe are supportive of artists and the creation of art. Your rebuttal boils down to the fact that this perspective isn't absolute--It's not handed down by god, the golden paintbrush, the almighty sun, lol whatever. I never said it was absolute. I indicated in the beginning that not everyone would value these things.
Beyond that, you haven't made any qualitative assessment of what I've written. Yes?
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
Wow...this is funny thread.
First off. I am inebriated - I am pretty sure that is not against the EULA.
Second, in the States, you can copy something and change about 20% of it and legally be safe. Unless you copied something from the Mouse, then you better pray their lawyers never see it or you're scr*wed.
I tend to agree, Suchiro has her argument of style and technique backwards. So far backwards, that it is very difficult to explain why other then her own definition of style is more closely related to technique. Fortunately, Suchi pointed out that the terminology she used may not be correct and that we (the reader) could swop out different terms (like style) to make better sense of her argument. With that said, if I were to switch the term technique with style, then I would agree with Suchi 
Something to keep in mind, art is divided by its "style" or as some call "movements" so the whole argument of saying it is bad or illegal to copy style, techniques, etc. is more or less pointless. That would be like saying Rafael is a hack for working in a Renaissance style.
FD, as I mentioned, I like this post - makes me feel all warm inside. But while I agree copying artwork (like white rabbits) is a bad professional practice. The same can be said for taking "canned" 3D models and cutting out portions of them and then include them into your own work and call it original. But technically, since both examples ended with the final piece being at least 80% original - both are probably legally safe.
Oh...and since the EULA was mentioned. Isn't account sharing against those rules (you - and you know who I mean when I say this) should not quote EULA when you violate them.
OK, again...this was fun! FLAME ON!
*edited because I spell worse than I push pixels*
Globals: Johnnykat & Johnnykat2
http://johnnykat.deviantart.com/
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I've pointed out the following|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Beyond that, you haven't made any qualitative assessment of what I've written. Yes?
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-That this forum, by its nature, is not an academic art forum.
-That your opinion is only that - your opinion. And while you are welcome to voice it so long as it falls within the TOS, I am also welcome to voice mine - even if it runs counter to yours.
-That the accusations of theft are from your perspective. If you believe that someone has stolen something, by all means, report it to the authorities.
-That accusations can be harmful - even if not true.
-That your values are your own and are not universal.
-That the practice of theft/swiping/copying is widespread in art.
-That the condemnation of the above has not been rampant throughout human development, but rather is a new phenomenon.
-That your own OP has glaring holes in it regarding 'exceptions', and that by the nature of those exceptions, your values/rules cannot be used as a guideline.
-That you calling out one person (or certain people), but not others shows an emotional bias.
-That there are numerous creative goods in our lives, and that if we reference any of them, we run the risk of offending someone.
-That the vast majority of people on this forum are not art professionals, and as such, are simply here exploring hobbies and interests.
Shall I go on with my qualitative assessment?
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Originally Posted by Johnnykat
First off. I am inebriated - I am pretty sure that is not against the EULA.
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LOL. That Suchi chick confuses me too.| Fortunately, Suchi pointed out that the terminology she used may not be correct and that we (the reader) could swop out different terms (like style) to make better sense of her argument. |
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| FD, as I mentioned, I like this post - makes me feel all warm inside. But while I agree copying artwork (like white rabbits) is a bad professional practice. The same can be said for taking "canned" 3D models and cutting out portions of them and then include them into your own work and call it original. But technically, since both examples ended with the final piece being at least 80% original- both are probably legally safe. |
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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You haven't made any qualitative assessment. You're doing you damndest to address everything but the points I've made. Go back to the numbered points I've listed. Are they good or bad? Should artists hold to them or not?| Shall I go on with my qualitative assessment? |
What you think about the nature of the forum, the nature of the people here, etc. is irrelevant to the post I made. It just relates your discomfort having these things discussed. You accuse me of having an emotional bias with regards to calling people out about art theft--when you're the one bringing all that jazz into this thread in the first place. I made no mention of you and really didn't even expect you to contribute here.
"The practice of theft/copying/swiping is widespread in art."
So is the fallout from such theft. Legally or otherwise. Should it be widespread? If you don't condone it, why would you state this? It reads as "this is no big deal."
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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I've discussed the issue at hand - just because I don't want to be pigeon holed into your exact way of viewing the subject, does not mean that my points are any less relevant.|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
You haven't made any qualitative assessment. You're doing you damndest to address everything but the points I've made. Go back to the numbered points I've listed. Are they good or bad? Should artists hold to them or not?
|
The issue at hand is using references - is it not? You put forth your values on it, and then proceeded to elaborate.
I've put out my views on it (see my first reply), and have since questioned some other views/judgements being made - especially those in the OP.
If you think that my points have no merit, so be it. But I think that that is exactly where you are falling short - that you don't allow for divergence of opinion.
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"The practice of theft/copying/swiping is widespread in art." So is the fallout from such theft. Legally or otherwise. Should it be widespread? If you don't condone it, why would you state this? It reads as "this is no big deal." |
Once again though I ask you to please look at your opinion and consider addressing some of the flaws I've noted. I really do think that we agree far more than you'd expect, but that your posts have smacked of the tone - "I am the teacher, and this is how it is." It's been noted before, and you may want to consider easing up on it - your position would be the better for it.
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You haven't diverged in opinion. Essentially, what you're saying is that points are not absolute, which I stated myself at the outset. Those numbered points--if you diverge, what don't you agree with? The only thing I'm trying to pigeonhole you into is clarity.| If you think that my points have no merit, so be it. But I think that that is exactly where you are falling short - that you don't allow for divergence of opinion. |
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| Once again though I ask you to please look at your opinion and consider addressing some of the flaws I've noted. I really do think that we agree far more than you'd expect, but that your posts have smacked of the tone - "I am the teacher, and this is how it is." It's been noted before, and you may want to consider easing up on it - your position would be the better for it. |
Lol you're lost. You're barking up the wrong tree. You wandered into the wrong side of town. I'm trying to express some ideas here. I feel it's important to understand what reference is and how to use it. I've been influenced by a lot of really talented and influential people. Some of this is echoing stuff I've read from people like Brom and the guys at concept art. You don't agree with me? Fine. Want to use cultural relativism as a pretext for dismissing it. Great! Whatever makes you happy. But I can't pamper you. Sorry.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
TL;DR
Juggy agrees with LD, except when it suits him. In which case, he agrees with him more, but only in a belligerent way.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
Quote:
I believe I've been pretty clear in my posts thus far - I take issue with the ambiguity of your judgement in regards to this issue. I see shades of gray, you see black and white.|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
You haven't diverged in opinion. Essentially, what you're saying is that points are not absolute, which I stated myself at the outset. Those numbered points--if you diverge, what don't you agree with? The only thing I'm trying to pigeonhole you into is clarity.
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And as to addressing your specific values - I'm not really all that interested. Those are YOUR values, and as you've said, you gained them over a lifetime. I'm really not keen on delving into them - they are yours, and I respect that. What I can question is the application of those guidelines and how that may apply to others.
your values are your own, but as soon as you seek to spread them, don't be surprised if people question that a bit.
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| My thread would be better off without the personality assessments you bring into it. I have no incentive to worry about my tone with you, since you've stated time and time again that you don't care about my opinion anyway. You've stated many times that you don't feel this kind of discussion belongs in this forum. You are very demanding that the proceedings have the proper degree of civility that you feel your entitled to. |
I believe that this is a valid discussion, and as long as it stays civil, a good one. I'm not sure that it belongs on this forum though, and I've stated my reasons why.
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| Lol you're lost. You're barking up the wrong tree. You wandered into the wrong side of town. I'm trying to express some ideas here. I feel it's important to understand what reference is and how to use it. I've been influenced by a lot of really talented and influential people. Some of this is echoing stuff I've read from people like Brom and the guys at concept art. You don't agree with me? Fine. Want to use cultural relativism as a pretext for dismissing it. Great! Whatever makes you happy. But I can't pamper you. Sorry. |
That seems a bit off, no?
Oh, and put snide little words like 'pampering' in there if you like, but it really does nothing for your point. I haven't asked to be pampered, I've simply asked about the holes in your position.
Again though, I want to say that in many ways I agree with many of your stances - but your unwillingness to accept that there may be valid alternatives scares me.
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Originally Posted by Suichiro
TL;DR
Juggy agrees with LD, except when it suits him. In which case, he agrees with him more, but only in a belligerent way. |
Suichiro, I actually enjoyed your first post on this thread, and especially the example you gave. Please, if you can, no need to come after me, but instead, why not address some of the issues being discussed (and in that, I suppose you can take some shots at me)?
Hehe, now Suichiro has me confused too. 
Not taking any sides, but I would like to follow up on my last question. I think everyone agrees that it is ok to copy references for educational purposes. What art communities do you guys go to to show these kind of studies and get feedback from other artists? I know it can be a sensitive issue even when you are only copying it for educational reasons, because if you do a "study" after an artist living today and post it everywhere, the original artist may not appreciate that.
Two places I know of are CGSociety and Conceptart.org. Are there other ones that don't gravitate toward one particular style? I really like CGSociety, but the sketchbook section there seems to have really slowed down in the last couple of years. Conceptart.org seems to have too much activity, on the other hand. I don't have a sketchbook thread there because of that. I noticed on Conceptart that unless you are one of the few amazing artists, your sketchbook gets little attention, which is understandable given the sheer number of sketchbooks there. And if you are one of those few amazing artists, you are swarmed with praises, not much unlike on DA. I guess I am looking for a happy medium where it is easy to get meaningful feedback from a number of people and also be able to keep up with what other people are doing.
My Web Site and Portfolio
My DeviantArt Gallery
Thanks for mentioning those sites, LD. I had visited before, but might have to swing by and give them another go.
One site that I really like for constructive comments on comic (style) art is PencilJack - http://www.penciljack.com/forum/forum.php
There's been a number of industry people there that are helpful and encouraging.
LD, is there anywhere local that you can go? I think you pointed out the problems with internet-based groups. Good for some things, not so much for others. I've gotten more quality feedback from in-person group critiques than anywhere else.
I know you mentioned there was some sort of art classes nearby you at one point. Might be worthwhile to poke around there some more. There are also a lot of national groups that have local chapters, such as The Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators.
There are also illustrators who will do workshops and things at local museums and galleries, and that's also a good place to get some group feedback on your work.
Stop inserting calm, reasonable discussion in this thread! It's ruining my enjoyment of viewing the two immovable objects pushing at each other!! 
@BW:
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To be fair BW... yeah, you do.|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
And to be clear: I don't call people out for copying.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
I don't even call people out for a pattern of copying that can be demonstrated over time. I call people out for these things and offering arguments/justification to the effect that there's nothing wrong with following that kind of pattern.
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to the effect that there's was nothing wrong with copying (as you define it).
In that very same post you also manage to make the claim that you are not calling him out about the contest
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Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
"I'm not calling you out about that. It's not my contest, I couldn't care less."
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Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
"You wanted to reference Disney-fine. But you had to pause the screen and copy both the likeness and the pose?"
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You know just because you repeatedly say you don't (or haven't or wouldn't) do something doesn't make it true.
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Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
I've explained why I would call out a poster for stealing. Do I have to write it again?
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That said I am enjoying reading the opinions and points being expressed in this thread and do applaud you for creating it.
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@Juggertha:
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Originally Posted by juggertha
As far as i know, there are no major published artists here, and me personally, well, I'm just practicing.
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Of course if you only "copied" (as BW defines it) during a "for fun" contest and not on anything you make money from then it's a somewhat moot point and all of it really depends on how people define copying/stealing vs. using reference.
Do you have any actual examples (this is what I call using refs the right way and this over here is copying) Juggertha or BW (you did say you would post all your refs for the skating piece when you got back) or anyone else? I think if we could see actually what people are talking about rather than hearing it described to us we could come to some kind of agreed upon definition and this thread would progress further... well either that or the forums would implode.
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@Wassy: That bit about admissions wanting to see your sketchbook is interesting.
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@Johhnykat: ...when you sober up you may find it amusing to know that Suichiro is not a she. He probably does have red hair and horns though.
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Push, push, push.|
Originally Posted by Caemgen
Stop inserting calm, reasonable discussion in this thread! It's ruining my enjoyment of viewing the two immovable objects pushing at each other!!
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Bah!
Juggertha cannot move it.
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Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
@BW:
Of course if you only "copied" (as BW defines it) during a "for fun" contest and not on anything you make money from then it's a somewhat moot point and all of it really depends on how people define copying/stealing vs. using reference. |
But absolutely, if I am making money at something, then my clients have every right to discuss the product with me. And if any previous client have issue, they are welcome to contact me (you'll note that my commissions have been closed for months now, though).
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Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
Do you have any actual examples (this is what I call using refs the right way and this over here is copying) Juggertha or BW (you did say you would post all your refs for the skating piece when you got back) or anyone else? I think if we could see actually what people are talking about rather than hearing it described to us we could come to some kind of agreed upon definition and this thread would progress further... well either that or the forums would implode. |
But I must say, it varies per piece. My recent Blob piece used next to no references - I was perversely inspired. lol
But it's more than obvious that I used a video pause to make that Disney rabbit previously mentioned - and people will note that I even showed the process in it. I wasn't trying to dupe anyone, and made clear that any other participant would be welcome to PM me regarding it.
Edit: Sorry CR, I tried to keep your color scheme, but I mesed it up. Forgive me.
*** in his best Darth Vader voice***
If you only knew the power of the Orange side!
There can be no forgiveness! No mercy shown to....! errrr... I mean, umm yeah, no worries Juggertha.
Chris--
You're taking that statement out of context. I said I don't call people out for copying, or showing a pattern of copying. It was having a pattern and offering up justification that there was nothing wrong with doing so. At the point I made those comments about the contest entry, he was well beyond all of those criteria. This has been a debate that has been going on for years, well before you showed up here.
Moreover this post was not meant to be about that. He is making it about that. He inserted it as part of the discussion.
What I posted was very straightforward.
1. I listed some values I think are good regarding art.
2. If you find those attractive, I offered some guidelines on how to use reference.
I welcome anyone to disagree with the values I listed or post their own different idea of what using reference involves. Nobody has.
Juggy--
You don't want to address the specific values I've listed because they're mine. Incorrect. They are widely held by artist's and educators. Those values are the core of my argument. Since you won't address them, you aren't making any substantive response to my post.
You're pointing to holes and grey area. While you're at it, you might want to consider evolution, general relativity, electromagnetism, the theory of gravity, etc. You might want to look at ANY ideas put forth by people because they all have holes and grey areas. There are still people that believe the world is flat, so the roundness of the world is a grey area as well methinks.
You say that my unwillingness to accept valid alternatives scares you. I'm trying to encourage people not to benefit from the labor of other artists in the creation of new, "original" art. What is your valid alternative to that?
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
Quote:
Ironically, I have red hair and horns...|
Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
...@Johhnykat: ...when you sober up you may find it amusing to know that Suichiro is not a she. He probably does have red hair and horns though.
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But, ya that is a whole other can of worms. If you're a dude and your main is a RP chick toon. In my book, you're forever referred to as a chick. That really isn't meant to be insulting...I just assume if you want to play a girl and be known as a girl on the game and boards, that's cool (man or woman) whatever floats your boat and all. But ya, I do find it amusing CR.
I figured by the time I did sober up, someone would have posted one of two things: 1) tickets for a cage match or 2) coupon for a free night stay at the local motel for the two main contenders to work out their arguments one-on-one. lols
Globals: Johnnykat & Johnnykat2
http://johnnykat.deviantart.com/
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I pretty much base genders off forum avatars and mains too, it makes my life simpler .
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Originally Posted by Johnnykat
Ironically, I If you're a dude and your main is a RP chick toon. In my book, you're forever referred to as a chick. That really isn't meant to be insulting...I just assume if you want to play a girl and be known as a girl on the game and boards, that's cool (man or woman) whatever floats your boat and all. But ya, I do find it amusing CR.
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I usually suggest sticking to small groups of peers where everyone knows everybody and folks are uploading new content consistently.|
Originally Posted by Lousy_Day
I noticed on Conceptart that unless you are one of the few amazing artists, your sketchbook gets little attention, which is understandable given the sheer number of sketchbooks there. And if you are one of those few amazing artists, you are swarmed with praises, not much unlike on DA. I guess I am looking for a happy medium where it is easy to get meaningful feedback from a number of people and also be able to keep up with what other people are doing.
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I usually keep tabs on a few art friends via email and we all send out regular emails with what we have been working on , theres a bit of constructive criticism , sharing of ideas and of course back patting (also lots of redlining of each others work )but it seems to work out rather well .
I've also been enjoying BW's/FD's live stream for some of the same reason , its live , theres a small group of people intrested in the subject and while the conversations are sometimes odd its nice being able to ask art related questions as will as nitpick what they are doing in a small peer group style setting (im also on my best behavior there and leave my haet or personal dislikes at the door ) stream time is time to talk shop .
on that same note id like be all for visiting other folks live stream to watch how they do their craft , we all see finished product here often enough but its pretty fun watching part or all of the creation process as it happens .
anyway sorry for the off topic
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I posted nothing but the truth here. Sorry, Juggs, but that's how the reality of this is working. Also, I already made my case previously and even posted examples. More than anyone else did so far.|
Originally Posted by Juggertha
And then we have Suichiro, who comes in for the swipe, without actually addressing the matter at hand.
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Originally Posted by ChristopherRobin
To be fair BW... yeah, you do.
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Mod 08 came in and erased all the posts that had anything to do with the examples and proof in the previous threads, so there's no history to go back to now. Going back to that thread is now a moot point because of it.
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Originally Posted by Johnnykat
But, ya that is a whole other can of worms. If you're a dude and your main is a RP chick toon. In my book, you're forever referred to as a chick.
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http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
Quote:
Sorry FD, but it's not that easy.|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Juggy-- You don't want to address the specific values I've listed because they're mine. Incorrect. They are widely held by artist's and educators. Those values are the core of my argument. Since you won't address them, you aren't making any substantive response to my post. |
As stated before, if you post a set of values, and expect everyone to share them, there's going to be a problem. You posted the (not so great) example of murder, and we all know that there are many different values people hold on the subject.
It's easy to say 'hey,none of us agree with stealing, right?', and most would probably agree with that statement - but on closer examination and questioning, you'd most likely find that there's a wide variation of belief within that simple statement. Do we all view stealing the same? Chances are, we have varying definitions of the word.
And that's why I don't have to agree to your set of values to make a comment on this topic - the topic (using references) does not need to be bound by YOUR values - but is rather an issue for all to deal with and discuss.
You're missing the point that referenceing and copying are two different things. As for the wholesale copying of other artists in the comic book industry, I'll have to take your word for it. But when you say "artistic industry" you're wrong. There are many contexts of publishing, illustration, conceptart, animation, design, etc. where ripping off other people's work will get you fired or blacklisted. Legally, copyright law is there for a reason. It amazes me that people would actually WANT this sort of thing to be no big deal.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"