'Grats on the 3rd place though!
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You really can't answer a simple question can you? I'm not asking you to agree with my values. I am simply asking you to comment on them. Do you agree or not? If you disagree, why? If you can't do that, I'm not clear what you feel your relevance is to this thread.| And that's why I don't have to agree to your set of values to make a comment on this topic - the topic (using references) does not need to be bound by YOUR values - but is rather an issue for all to deal with and discuss. |
At this point it's pretty obvious that you're just here to dispute. You're not adding anything to the mix, just trying to discredit what I've posted. If you reject the values I've posted, you're free to post your own. But that would actually involve presenting a specific stance that people could respond to, so that clearly won't happen.
Your assumption is that everyone is likely to be against stealing, but on closer examination people are likely to have widely differing views on what stealing is. That's an assumption. Your position rests on your view that people will have such a widely different take on things that there will be this big grey area. This is your speculation, you haven't done anything to back it up. Why don't you provide a concrete example of a grey area since you feel they are so prevalent?
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
Later tonight, I'll get some of the ref I used for the fanart competition with some comments on how I developed that piece.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
Blood Wolffe- Who the heck was judging the show?
Just because I'm interested in opinions of people....
Do you consider costume design original art? Is replicating one theft/copying? If you change the colors or the gender of the characters?
Do you consider assembling and posing commerical render objects original art if you have not designed any of the assets yourself?
Do you consider photomanipulation theft/copying? How much must be altered before its considered an original work?
Do you consider subject substitution original art? (ie, taking an iconic comic/movie/bookcover scene and changing out the characters)
As per request, I'm going to post the ref I used for my Olympic fanart competition entry. First, here's the entry:
Here is the reference used for doing the rink/background:
Basically I tried to use this image to figure out design elements for my imaginary rink that would make it plausible (rafters, lights, how the stands are situated, etc.). It also helped to look at ref to figure out the scale of the foreground and background figures and know where the judges sit.
Here are some skater refs:
I used these pics in a similar way. I needed some postures that would make it credible that these characters were actually speedskating. I picked some of the ones that were a little more extreme in order to make the composition more interesting. I didn't use any pose ref for the freak tank, or the greater devoured, or the clockwork--though I did look at screenshots for design reference.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
Tracers! just kidding... 
you guys are waaay too serious. I know, I'm one of you. 
Id just like to point out that I have no problem with theft or murder... Well not so long as I'm not being the one stolen from or killed. Or so long as it's not anyone I care about...
If I just know the victim I probably don't care but I will act like it's a shame in front of others. Have to keep up appearances and all that, y'know...
Errr, well even if I don't know the victims I suppose it could still affect me in some way... So let's go with I have no problem with it so long as it doesn't affect me in any way that I know about... If it affects me in ways I don't know about how could I care??
But, but... It could have a positive effect! I'd be more ok with that I guess...
Errr, been messing up affect and effect but don't feel like fixing...
Anyway, the minor point I have is that OF COURSE there ate varying opinions and values about everything. To ask for proof is silly. You need proof some people have no problem with murder, look up the murder stats of major cities. Or check out the abortion debate - the fact that there is a debate of wether or not that is murder proves there are different values and opinions on murder...
As for what most scholars and such believe, I'll buy their judgements and values on things in their field of scholarly scholaring are likely a lot closer together than the general unwashed masses opinion on murder but if there is no variance what so ever between then, no shades of grey, then I must believe that they've all been brainwashed or exchanged with pod people... Opinions vary, specially on subjective matters. Values differ, no matter how close they are there's always some line one will cross but the other won't...
*shrug*
not sure why I'm bothering since I don't really care about this debate since it doesn't really matter to my life but I'm at work and bored and that probably explains it...
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Listen, I've said it before and I'll say it again - your values are your own... and I only care so much about them. You've tried to explain some of them in the OP, but I have a feeling that they go even deeper than that. You've gained them over a lifetime, and I'm not here to discuss your values.|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
You really can't answer a simple question can you? I'm not asking you to agree with my values. I am simply asking you to comment on them. Do you agree or not? If you disagree, why? If you can't do that, I'm not clear what you feel your relevance is to this thread.
|
What I am trying to discuss is the various perspectives relating to using references for art. Isn't that what this thread is all about, or must everyone comment about your values?
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| At this point it's pretty obvious that you're just here to dispute. You're not adding anything to the mix, just trying to discredit what I've posted. If you reject the values I've posted, you're free to post your own. But that would actually involve presenting a specific stance that people could respond to, so that clearly won't happen. |
If you want to say that I add nothing to the discussion, then I'd have to ask- what exactly are you looking for? Are you looking for people to simply agree with you?
I've posted my thoughts on the matter, and have questioned some of others - that's what a discussion is about.
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| Your assumption is that everyone is likely to be against stealing, but on closer examination people are likely to have widely differing views on what stealing is. That's an assumption. Your position rests on your view that people will have such a widely different take on things that there will be this big grey area. This is your speculation, you haven't done anything to back it up. Why don't you provide a concrete example of a grey area since you feel they are so prevalent? |
If you want to ask for proof about everything I say, this discussion is going to go from civil to silly. Do you honestly believe that ALL people hold ALL of the same values? What proof must I come with to assure you that there is variation? Would codified country laws do? How about testimony from various people that hold different beliefs?
__________________________________________________ _______
The truth is, I see a number of holes, issues, and difference of opinion in the matter of using references. I think that there are varying degrees of gray, and to prescribe 'right and wrong', you need to have agreed upon codified rules.
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I think that these are very valid questions, and I've asked some of them already in this thread.|
Originally Posted by Kai
Just because I'm interested in opinions of people....
Do you consider costume design original art? Is replicating one theft/copying? If you change the colors or the gender of the characters? Do you consider assembling and posing commerical render objects original art if you have not designed any of the assets yourself? Do you consider photomanipulation theft/copying? How much must be altered before its considered an original work? Do you consider subject substitution original art? (ie, taking an iconic comic/movie/bookcover scene and changing out the characters) |
The basic question to me is; where is the line, and who get's to draw it?
(the line being the guideline - not artistic line)
Another question that could be added is - what is 'fair use' of someone else's creative works? Can I draw Batman as a piece of Fanart? Can I sell that piece? Do I need to get permission to draw it? Can I print it? Can I edit it to a certain degree to make it 'my own'?
I thnk that a lot of our questions are similar.
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The judge is a former teacher at the college. What she taught, I do not know. Doubt it was art. If I can I'll take some pictures and post them tomorrow.|
Originally Posted by Wassy
Blood Wolffe- Who the heck was judging the show?
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Edit:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Juggertha
I think that these are very valid questions, and I've asked some of them already in this thread.
The basic question to me is; where is the line, and who get's to draw it? (the line being the guideline - not artistic line) Another question that could be added is - what is 'fair use' of someone else's creative works? Can I draw Batman as a piece of Fanart? Can I sell that piece? Do I need to get permission to draw it? Can I print it? Can I edit it to a certain degree to make it 'my own'? I thnk that a lot of our questions are similar. |
All those questions are straight forward to me. Everyone has their gray area, and their black and white areas. Do what you know is right and answer to no one.
To me, at least, my answers are the following:
Do you consider costume design original art?
Creating the concept: Yes. CoH costume editor: No. Otherwise, shopping for clothes is creating art.
Is replicating one theft/copying?
Theft: No. Copying: Yes.
If you change the colors or the gender of the characters?
Still copying.
Do you consider assembling and posing commerical render objects original art if you have not designed any of the assets yourself?
I would say that if it makes you perceive them in a different way, then it is art. Slapping a pepsi logo next to a coke logo? No.
Do you consider photomanipulation theft/copying?
Theft: It depends on the permissions the photomanipulator has. Copying: No. It's manipulating a pre-existing image.
How much must be altered before its considered an original work?
Enough that the original image is not what I think of when I see the new one.
Do you consider subject substitution original art? (ie, taking an iconic comic/movie/bookcover scene and changing out the characters)
If you are talking about something like cutting and pasting Dragonball Z characters on the Matrix poster, no. If you mean when an artist makes an homage, yes. Stipulation: Making an "homage" for its own sake. If an artist does it because it looked cool originally, I feel that diminishes the art.
You haven't posted anything here, nor anywhere else to really show your stance on the whole thing Juggy. You've posted time and time again why you're against other people's stances, but never cemented one yourself. In this fashion, you protect yourself from judgment, but it weakens your position in the argument in general.
There's no reason why you have to post a stance. It's a valid route to not give one at all, but it's never going to help anyone else see your side of things. Until you post some specific examples and rules that you govern yourself by, this passive-aggressive 'conversation' will never move further.
Perhaps that's what you want, I'm not sure. Though I'm pointing it out right now, so if you didn't, now you'll know.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
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Perhaps you didn't read my original post on the subject on page 1. I know it was a bit long, but it did contain many of my opinions. Here's an example:|
Originally Posted by Suichiro
You haven't posted anything here, nor anywhere else to really show your stance on the whole thing Juggy. You've posted time and time again why you're against other people's stances, but never cemented one yourself. In this fashion, you protect yourself from judgment, but it weakens your position in the argument in general.
There's no reason why you have to post a stance. It's a valid route to not give one at all, but it's never going to help anyone else see your side of things. Until you post some specific examples and rules that you govern yourself by, this passive-aggressive 'conversation' will never move further. Perhaps that's what you want, I'm not sure. Though I'm pointing it out right now, so if you didn't, now you'll know. |
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Originally Posted by Juggertha
For me, this is how I see it:
Other people's art- -If you reference, I believe you should cite it. If you don't, you'd better as soon as called on it. -If you are selling something for profit, or printing on a large scale, you should seek permission for referencing before you use it. Photos- -If I know the source, I'll source it - especially if it's Stock somewhere. -I'll try to diverge from the original enough so that it would be recognizable, yet not exact (unless, of course, I'm trying to be exact. lol). |
1. FD, when he chose to reply and quote me, excluded my opinions. I don't know why he did that, but it helped to lead us down this path of 'one-way questioning'.
2. I honestly question the issue at hand. Not just FD's take on it, but the whole concept of intellectual property theft. I'm not saying that I am against it, but rather that certain parts are either unclear to me or simply don't sit right with me.
I really wish that this conversation would have panned out differently. I think if you re-read my original reply to this post, you'll see that I tried to express my thoughts and questions on the subject - because just like other posters here have mentioned, there seems to be a lot of gray areas.
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It's a sliding scale of respect. There's no straight binary answer here, as each infraction of my values decreases my respect for the person or the work involved. It also depends upon other factors, such as equal opportunity to work and ability to learn. A 6 year old doesn't have the opportunity to have a lifetime of experience like a 55 year old would, so they cannot be judged equally. Someone with no arms must develop new additional skills and cannot be judged equally against someone in perfect condition. Every situation is different, so no true all-encompassing truth could be had. But on a general basis, assuming relatively equal ages, ability, etc:|
Originally Posted by Kai
Just because I'm interested in opinions of people....
|
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| Do you consider costume design original art? |
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| Is replicating one theft/copying? If you change the colors or the gender of the characters? |
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| Do you consider assembling and posing commerical render objects original art if you have not designed any of the assets yourself? |
This may make some people think that my views extend into the extreme thought that all 3D programs and graphic editors are also 'theft' because you didn't write the program and tools yourself. No, that's not true. A program is only a tool, as a pencil is. Only elements that make it into the final piece would be subject to that judgment. I can make a bitmap image in countless different programs. Pixels are a medium, not a work. 3D modeling is a medium as is cloth. Specifically arranged pixels (like a specific picture) is a work that can be copied or 'stolen.' Specific 3D models that are created by someone is a work that can be 'stolen.' A dress or a shirt is a specific arrangement of cloth that's design can be 'stolen' too.
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| Do you consider photomanipulation theft/copying? How much must be altered before its considered an original work? |
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| Do you consider subject substitution original art? (ie, taking an iconic comic/movie/bookcover scene and changing out the characters) |
This is why you use context. Something could be original within the realm of photography. While the elements will not be your own, they can be your own original use of them. Within the realm of photomanipulation, it can be an original technique or attempt towards an idea. This assumes that within that genre, we ignore anything that makes it unoriginal. This is typically how we speak of our comparisons, but the reality still lays underneath it all.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
Quote:
While I agree with many of the statements above, especially that regarding 3D work and such, I wish you would have added 'in my opinion' to the above preface.
|
Originally Posted by Suichiro
But on a general basis, assuming relatively equal ages, ability, etc:
|
LOL Oh Juggy, you always accuse me of taking swipes at you, yet this is a reply to Kai specifically saying he wanted opinions *and* I specifically stated 'my values' in the opening paragraph, as well as talking about my personal respect for an artist.
Seriously, what more do you want? I'm never going to be bubble wrapped for your protection. I will never fit into your Ultra Politically Correct world. I did specify my own feelings on the subject, you have nothing to complain about.
Also, bubble wrap is awesome and if I'm wrapped in it, it's certainly going to be for non-PC reasons.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
Quote:
Sorry, but no where in this first paragraph do you say that this is only your opinion. I see that you had 'my values' in the second sentence, but honestly, Suichiro, it very much felt de-emphasized. Just from a writing standpoint, I would have loved to see the first or last sentence clearly state this is your opinion. |
Originally Posted by Suichiro
LOL Oh Juggy, you always accuse me of taking swipes at you, yet this is a reply to Kai specifically saying he wanted opinions *and* I specifically stated 'my values' in the opening paragraph, as well as talking about my personal respect for an artist.
|
Quote:
| It's a sliding scale of respect. There's no straight binary answer here, as each infraction of my values decreases my respect for the person or the work involved. It also depends upon other factors, such as equal opportunity to work and ability to learn. A 6 year old doesn't have the opportunity to have a lifetime of experience like a 55 year old would, so they cannot be judged equally. Someone with no arms must develop new additional skills and cannot be judged equally against someone in perfect condition. Every situation is different, so no true all-encompassing truth could be had. But on a general basis, assuming relatively equal ages, ability, etc |
/shrug
Ok, perhaps the discussion about references and copying and fair use and such would move along better if there were some situations posted which various people could comment on in regards to if it's "ok" or not and why...
I doubt I'm the best person to think of different situations but I'll do it anyway 
. Of course if others have trickier situations they'd like to ask about well feel free...
1) In high school I was considered an art major (I know, hard to believe) and one of our projects was to make a poster for a localish contest (a regional bank was sponsoring.) The theme was basically a "make Buffalo look good" kind of thing, community spirit, whatever...
My poster consisted of the outline of a charging buffalo divided into 7 or 8 different windows. Inside each window was depicted a different scene: the skyline, the waterfront, a hockey player, a shot of the sponsoring bank (had very distinctive look) and whatever else I used...
The medium was... Err, ibdont recall. This cellophane type colored stuff I cut with an exacto knife to color all the scenes... Gah, why the he'll I chose that stuff I've no idea, very exacting and tedious!! Anyway, you cut out the shape, applied to poster board and it stuck... No idea anymore the name of it...
Getting back on point - every little window/scene was taken from a photograph. Some published in local paper, some off the Internet, etc... Now due to the medium these were obviously not exact copies (though I did my best) and the size and shape of the windows meant I was pretty much just using a part of any one photo, not the whole thing... But I wasn't trying to change anything I did include...
So, is this permissable or no?*
It was a school project but was also to submit to a contest in which the winner would be rewarded and the poster possibly used in an ad campaign...
It was all copied but still reshaped, repackaged and done in a different medium.., does any of that matter?
2) I want to commission a piece of art of Caemgen flying amongst the buildings and skyscrapers of New York City... The artist I'm hiring is from Latvia and needs references if they are to do more than just a generic city... I definitely want this to be NYC so I ask them to use a specific picture I send them that contains a couple iconic buildings.*
Is the artist wrong from copying the reference exactly? Even if I specifically asked for that? Does where the picture of the buildings came from make a difference? Obviously yes if I took it but what if it's just something I found on the Internet? What if from a newspaper article? What if from a photobook of NYC skylines?
Should the artist refuse such work? What if I told him I wanted to use it to advertise my pizza shop? Or to print on tshirts for sale? What if I just wanted for on the wall of my own room??
3) One if my favorite all time comic arts us the picture of Wolverine on his knees, arms to the sides claws extended, head thrown back in an agonized howl.. *First time I recall seeing this I think was where a brood egg or whatever was hatching inside him, his skin got that kind of plated texture to it... But seen the pose A LOT since and I think it's one of those iconic poses definitely identified with a specific character...
Can an artist use it for someone else? A non Marvel artist?? Does having it ge a totally different character matter? Does changing the angle we see the character from?? And if so, how different does the character have to be? How different the angle???
Anyway, like I said, I just thought some scenarious to discuss might actually move the discussion to... Well, a discussion. Right now it seems stuck at the same stage it's been in fir a day or so...
If you want to discuss, go ahead, if you'd rather just debate who is stalling the discussion, you can do that too..,
*shrug*
Hmph, see Kai's questions kind of kick started things already... Well I went through all the bother of typing this all out on my phone so I'm still posting it, demmit!!
Judging by the sheer insurmountable number of questions and the gatling gun rate at which you fired them Caemgen, I'd venture a wager that you've had about a year of experience being a five-year-old sometime in your past. 
I was actually so smart I skipped that age 
But the point isn't to answer each question so much as to provide possible points for discussion from each scenario... For example I can easily see people saying all was good in scenario 1 since it was a school project and thus educational but do they feel the same way when entered in a contest with prizes? Or when it may be used in an ad... I think the different uses may cause different answers and I think that may be where some of the grey area is...
Well, to me the law is my guide. While I don't know the applicable law for all of those scenarios, I try to use that as my compass. If I don't know I will play it safe.
So, predictably, because it was for school that was fine in my book. It also sounded like a very good concept. Did you win? Buildings and landmarks are up for grabs for anyone to make images of and sell. However, if you were an architect and tried to pass off the blueprints of the Empire State building as your own...
Oh, did you have Buffalo wings in your picture? Their my favorite!
Caemgen, it's hilarious because I was just about to post something very similar to yours. I too was hoping to steer this back on topic and see if people had various opinions on different situations.
I'll try to give my opinions on you examples.
1. It was for school and not for profit, and I see absolutely no harm in it. That being said, I could envision a (lawsuit riddled) world where someone could take issue with it. Perhaps the original photographer or something. To avoid that, if I was really thinking ahead, I might post the sources I got the pics from. But chances are, if it was me, I'd probably be standing by my piece apologizing to the guy or not accrediting him.
The whole 'collage' style of art is a tough call.
2. Yeah, this one is a whole lot tougher. many people have asked me specifically for certain details. So specific, they've basically said 'draw this as it is, but change this part'.
I think that if it stays between you and the 'requester', it's not a big issue. But if they are going to mass produce/publish it - with your name on it - perhaps you might want to reconsider.
3. This reminds me of the swipe that almost everyone in comics has apparently done (jk. It's just been done a lot)
http://blakemp.files.wordpress.com/2...e-earths-7.jpg
to some people, certain stances/poses are iconic - and many commission customers want exactly that. And from a previous post on here, I am wondering if certain companies want it as well.
Either way, a quick google search of 'swiped comic covers' or something similar will provide numerous examples.
Personally, I might as the 'client' if they'd be willing to change the angle or something. Heck, maybe the same pose with a different angle could be even more dramatic. If they said no, then I guess it'd be similar to answer #2.
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here's an odd one:
Sure, we all know that if we want to draw an apple, the standard way would be to use our memory/imagination, use a real life reference, or (perhaps) use a photo. In the last option, we may run the risk of invading upon the photographers .... "rights'.
But what if I want to draw a Porsche? I mean, I don't own a Porsche, so would it be ok to use a picture? What if I went to the dealership on my own and took a photo, would that be ok? What about the rights of the designers of that car? I mean, I'm guessing that Porsche spent $$$ to ensure a certain look, am I able to use that 'look' for my own artistic purposes without their permission?
It's hard for me to ascribe 'design ownership' to an apple - but a car/building/whatever - should we consider that too?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Juggertha
3. This reminds me of the swipe that almost everyone in comics has apparently done (jk. It's just been done a lot)
http://blakemp.files.wordpress.com/2...e-earths-7.jpg to some people, certain stances/poses are iconic - and many commission customers want exactly that. And from a previous post on here, I am wondering if certain companies want it as well. Either way, a quick google search of 'swiped comic covers' or something similar will provide numerous examples. Personally, I might as the 'client' if they'd be willing to change the angle or something. Heck, maybe the same pose with a different angle could be even more dramatic. If they said no, then I guess it'd be similar to answer #2. |
Yeah, I was thinking of this Wolverine pose:
But he's been done in that same basic pose a ton...
Something people might want to consider is the idea of specificity. If you're looking to draw something, say a building, and you're looking to use photoreference. How specific is the reference you're looking to use? And how specific is the relationship between the reference and the final image you're producing?
For example, look at the skater images I posted above. They are fairly generic images that were used to record a moment in time. There is really nothing that distinct about any of them, they are like dozens of other images record people skating. And the way that I've used them in my picture, you couldn't look at image and then point to any specific skater photo because there are hundreds out there that are just like it.
What would be problematic? Say you were going to do the Chrysler building and you decided to use an Ansel Adams photo as reference. Adams' photo will no doubt be saturated with his artistic values. His sense of composition, lighting, focus, abstraction etc. I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole if my goal was simply to have enough information to represent the building.
To me, you can generally see that something is a ripoff when a large amount of the source images specific details end up in the derivative piece.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
Related news: There was a student art show at my college. The painting that won the oil paint category was a master copy.
I pointed this out to some other students, and we, along with my teacher agreed that it shouldn't have won. It was a good copy done with a lot of skill. But it was still a copy. I'd rather see skill AND creativity rewarded rather than skill alone. A printer could've won first place. I wouldn't normally be bothered but this art competition had cash prizes.
Not to mention that first place in Life Drawing was a disproportioned gesture on newsprint (for those of you who don't know, newsprint is a cheap low quality paper meant for more disposable work, like warming up). "Weak," my teacher called it. Third place was a beautiful photorealistic charcoal portrait. Powerful emotion in it. Excellent use of dark and light. Third ****ing place!? I'm sort of glad I couldn't finish my piece in time. I'd have felt like a hack if I'd won and been full of rage if I hadn't.
Overall I was very dissappointed with the judging. What does this teach me? Art is subjective to the point of insanity.