Are Reward Merits Working As Intended?


Aggelakis

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg View Post
(what about drops when earning that merit load you posted).
Yes, drops would decrease the load somewhat. If you were moderately lucky, you could reduce the load by quite a lot... but you'd still have thousands of merits to earn, and the overall point would remain. It would take way, way too much time to earn this setup using Reward Merits alone.

Obviously, as you and others imply, this does not reflect real in-game conditions. Reward Merits don't exist on their own.

It's not my intention to deliberately misrepresent the difficulty of earning IOs - I'm fine with the time it takes me to get everything I 'need' to kit out my characters. I'm also fine with certain things (purples, PvP IOs) being outside of my budget most of the time.

Rather, for the purpose of the experiment in the OP, I wanted to consider Reward Merits in a vacuum, without the influence of the Market, to see how it would function as an alternative. The question going in was 'how long would it take me to earn this build just using the Reward Merits system?'

My conclusion was that on its own, the Reward Merits system doesn't work as an alternative or replacement to the markets if your goal is to IO your hero or villain. It only works as a supplement.

Of course, this might seem silly to readers, because Reward Merits don't exist in a vacuum. Most players interested in IOs can and do use a combination of methods to hit the goal of putting an IO build together. The two systems interact. For this reason, Merits can still be WAI, even though it is effectively impossible to use them to kit out your whole build.

I still think it's a somewhat valid point to make, because the Reward Merits system sometimes is put forward as a full alternative to using the Markets - players will sometimes tell each other 'if you don't like using the Markets, don't use them. You can earn everything you want without Wentworths or the BM.' While this statement is technically true, it would take an extraordinary amount of time to do so. So much time that it would be essentially impossible to do while playing the game normally.

When I ask 'Is this Working As Intended? Is this functional?' I'm not being facetious or asking a rhetorical question - I'm honestly not sure and would like to know. When I wrote the OP, I was half convinced that the original intent of the system was to provide an alternative to the Markets for those who'd rather not use them to get what they want. If that's the case, then it's a flawed system.

But it seems not to be the case. Markets are intended to be the main resource for IOing a character. I don't mean to make any implication about whether this is good or bad when I say that, as I would prefer to use the markets over merits anyway. Just looking for facts.

I hadn't even considered the supply problem presented by merits, either. Glad it was brought up.


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Posted

I just get irritable when people say 'can't be done' when they mean 'will take longer than I want it to'.

In this case it's a little important, because I'm not sure the Devs and Players agree on how long it 'should' take to outfit a character with IOs.

I'm guessing, but I feel confident the Dev design is "it doesn't matter how long it takes, because they are optional".

Thus, WAI. And in my personal case, acceptable, although YMMV.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails View Post
I just get irritable when people say 'can't be done' when they mean 'will take longer than I want it to'.

In this case it's a little important, because I'm not sure the Devs and Players agree on how long it 'should' take to outfit a character with IOs.

I'm guessing, but I feel confident the Dev design is "it doesn't matter how long it takes, because they are optional".

Thus, WAI. And in my personal case, acceptable, although YMMV.
This sums up everything having to do with inventions (IOs, tickets, merits, the markets, etc) perfectly.

It's clear how fast it takes to get a complete the complete build you need is irrelevant when discussing flaws in the system with the Devs, since the idea is that no one "needs" a complete build.

I will say that how the players view systems and how the devs view them have never meshed completely.

So yeah it is WAI from the developer point of view, but most players would not agree, as they DON'T want to take inordinate amount of time to do things in game. The makers of the mmo are perfectly happy (I would argue need players to) to have players take as long as necessary to do things in game.

That last paragraph is not a bad or good thing. It just is.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
* Make merits mailable between your own characters.
Good for: altoholics.
Objection: merits are something the characters are supposed to accrue through their own actions.
Rebuttal: so is influence, and we pass that stuff around all the time.
I'd argue that most people that concerned about keeping each character separate would feel about inf and Merits the same way. I've never traded inf between characters, and wouldn't trade Merits either.

Mind you I've no problem with others mailing Merits around, just that I wouldn't. I daresay the people who feel as I do are a rather small minority though so if the goal is to get Merits actually in use I'm all for it. I have the strength to resist temptation.

However I do wonder if Nuclear Toast (et al)'s stance is so widespread as to need addressing. Somewhere out there after all is a player or three that sells ALL their drops and recipes to an NPC vendor only, out of ignorance or out of principal.


 

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Originally Posted by NuclearToast View Post
I have not, to this day, redeemed a single reward merit. So I guess I can't answer the question. Next!

--NT
Ditto.


 

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Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
merits have gutted supply on most pool C's, I don't think anyone who's paid attention to their effect on the market would claim otherwise.


prior to merits the only way to get those sweet Pool C drops was run TFs. Every player who ran a TF got a roll, and I doubt many people did anything other than roll recipes.

By monetizing those rolls the devs undermined market supply in a few ways.
Some folk, like Toast, don't bother cashing their merits in. Some folk, like me, don't have the time to run the lucrative TFs are so are largely removed from the Pool C lottery. in the old days I could run a Katie now and then and get a roll, now I don't bother. Some folk who can earn merits efficiently save them up and buy the specific recipe they want, circumventing the market entirely.

I find the old system of the game generating drops efficiently and the market diseminating them efficiently much more elegant and much more fun than the current hybrid mess.
I was surprised more people didn't respond to market forces here:

The prices for pool C items has risen, but shouldn't there be a point where it would start encouraging players to JUST roll C's to sell on the market for all those hundreds of millions of inf?

Is the problem that Merits are seen as too valuable... or is it that influence is too worthless?


 

Posted

I do nothing but random rolls. I have never saved up merits to buy that one uber-expensive recipe.

Why would I spend 240 merits on ONE thing, when that many merits will get me 12 chances for that one thing, and the very strong possibility that I'll get something else I need in the process?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

I've bought several of the specialty IO's with Merits - usually the LoTG + Recharge, the various healing +Recovery and +Regen IO's, and +Stealth IO's.

Everything else I buy with influence or tickets.

Getting merits quickly is very easy blue-side, especially with all the lower level TF's that are being run all the time. Redside the easy merit acquisition doesn't take off until you are lvl 35+ (unless you feel like soloing Oro arcs).

Most of what I do is TF's, I don't solo much anymore. That may be why it seems easier to get the pricey IO's with merits these days. I can get 200+ merits in a weekend if I feel like it (or a day if I do nothing else).


 

Posted

I don't roll random because I see them as too valuable (at 42nd level, Justice Fencer has only 478 merits). To me a merit is worth a LOT of influence because it represents freedom from having to pay 10's or 100's of millions of influence I don't have on the market. I also avoid anything random on principal because historically my luck is awful in any game going back to D&D 1st edition sitting around a table rolling dice.

I have rolled random recipes using AE tickets but not knowing which ranges or options are best I ended up with 20 recipes that were worthless. I did find one I could craft for enough to make me feel better about my choice; but overall the experience just confirmed my opinion that my merits were too valuable to risk on random rolls since there are only a few recipes I really want anyway.

Maybe as time passes my desire for IO sets will increase and that will push me to get more comfortable with forming my own TF teams to increase my merit income. Maybe then I'll roll randomly and get more involved in the market... but certainly not as it stands now. *shrugs*


 

Posted

IMO, Merits aren't worth enough and MA tickets are worth too much. The system is set up to reward farming MA missions over doing TFs; I'd like to see the value of merits go up and that of tickets go down.

Past that, it might be nice to change the diminishing rewards system on merits to a completion-based outcome. Stealth the whole TF and basically just kill the bosses and AVs? Fewer merits but it's faster. Take the time to kill things? More merits but it takes longer. Average it out so you actually get a certain number of merits per time based on an average team.


 

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Originally Posted by Golden_Avariel View Post
Maybe as time passes my desire for IO sets will increase and that will push me to get more comfortable with forming my own TF teams to increase my merit income. Maybe then I'll roll randomly and get more involved in the market... but certainly not as it stands now. *shrugs*
I'm in the same boat. The game is balanced for SOs and there isn't really enough end-game content for me to care about working the system for IOs. I'd rather just go play an alt


 

Posted

A good solution for the random drop problem is have zone events, that cannot be initiated by player actions, drop a Pool C reciepe upon successful completion.

This includes things like Troll Raves*, Halloween Apocalypse Events, Even Rikti Raids or Zombie Invasions with some tooling. A random drop purchasable with Vangaurd Merits would even help a bit.

*some kinda auto exemplar feature when in the area of the raves would be necessary there


"I accidently killed Synapse, do we need to restart the mission?" - The Oldest One on Lord Recluses Strike Force

 

Posted

It seems to me that the intended purpose of the merits was primarily to keep things the same, even out the reward distribution for time/difficulty to some degree (and make it easier to fine-tune) and to allow people to get a rare recipe that they may not be having any luck getting through other means (none selling on the market, for example). To that end, it is functioning.

Expecting to fully outfit yourself with merits is unreasonable.

However some of the problems the merit system has created that have been brought up do seem valid. The reduction in automatic random rolling means the supply of recipes has gone down because the merits aren't being rolled. Some people are exclusively purchasing exactly the recipes they need and thus a large number of potential rolls aren't taking place, and others aren't even spending their merits. Again, large number of potential rolls not taking place. I expect that purchasing specific recipes with merits was intended to be something done rarely, only when other avenues of obtaining that recipe have been unsuccessful for some time.

Honest question because I have not seen it, though I have not searched extensively: Have any of the people noting the low availability of certain recipe types written a guide of any sort to the best level ranges and levels to roll at, for those ranges? I know this would be helpful to me, since I yet have much to learn about the market and recipe desirability/availability, and I suspect others might be more willing to give rolling a try if they had at least some guiding advice suggesting which rolls, at which levels, in which ranges, would be profitable and a worthwhile use of merits.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
* Make merits a single account-wide pool.
Good for: altoholics, villains (who can mooch off their rich hero co-alts).
Objection: violates hero/villain separation.
Rebuttal: so do tickets earned through MA ratings.
Don't forget it would require the devs to stop hating villains.

Quote:
* Remove non-random rolls entirely. Force a random roll immediately whenever enough merits have been accumulated.
Good for: marketeers, people who don't know what to do with merits.
Objection: removes path to earn specific items without resorting the market, you evil marketeer person.
Rebuttal: I care more about whether the market is useful than whether it can be circumvented, because I'm an evil marketeer person.
Forcing rolls is bad, especially for those people who are insane enough to lock a character at a specific level for rolls.

It might actually be detrimental to supply, as it will cause an oversupply at low levels where few people buy recipes while not allowing those who roll at levels of reasonable demand and low supply (30-40, for example) to save up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_of_Time View Post
Agreed. One has to only look at the market to see how it's changed it. Just a year ago prices and availability of Pool C drops were much better. A pool C cost almost 40% or more less and far more were available for sale. Now the supply has been cut and I weep to see the sheer level of cost many of these recipes are going for. It's pathetic. That's why I'm glad I farmed the hell out of TF's and built up tons of influence and IO'd my most favourite and important toons. What cost me about 1 billion to IO my main toon (tanker) and make him a bad *** would now cost me probably twice or even close to three times.
And in the last year we have had:

A massive amount of AE farming, resulting in a reduction of merit farming and an increased amount of inf.

A massive increase to the earning power of 50s, resulting in inflation. Merits alone don't account for the rise in prices, especially on items that can't be bought with merits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum View Post
I was surprised more people didn't respond to market forces here:

The prices for pool C items has risen, but shouldn't there be a point where it would start encouraging players to JUST roll C's to sell on the market for all those hundreds of millions of inf?

Is the problem that Merits are seen as too valuable... or is it that influence is too worthless?
It's that people who aren't familiar with the market or recipe pools aren't aware of what stuff sells for, what their chance of getting a worthwhile recipe with a random roll is, or that random roll is random. They roll, get a Trap of the Hunter, deem merits worthless, and start saving up to buy their LotG directly.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
I do nothing but random rolls. I have never saved up merits to buy that one uber-expensive recipe.

Why would I spend 240 merits on ONE thing, when that many merits will get me 12 chances for that one thing, and the very strong possibility that I'll get something else I need in the process?
Random rolling on a 50 can't get you a level 10 BotZ -kb or level 30 Numina unique, etc., which can be more valuable than their level 50 counterparts.


 

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Originally Posted by Mnemnosyne View Post
Honest question because I have not seen it, though I have not searched extensively: Have any of the people noting the low availability of certain recipe types written a guide of any sort to the best level ranges and levels to roll at, for those ranges? I know this would be helpful to me, since I yet have much to learn about the market and recipe desirability/availability, and I suspect others might be more willing to give rolling a try if they had at least some guiding advice suggesting which rolls, at which levels, in which ranges, would be profitable and a worthwhile use of merits.
I think that this is as close as it gets for now.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Random_R...ipe_Drop_Rates


 

Posted

I do have to add that allowing rolling at a specific level would be something I would very much desire, because at the moment I'm facing the unpleasant prospect of either locking my character at a lower level until I get all my recipes, to ensure I can get them at the level I want them, or leveling to 50 and potentially not getting the recipes I want at the level I want. Neither of those prospects appeals to me. Being able to continue leveling, but still be assured of getting the recipes at the level I want them at would be nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PumBumbler View Post
I think that this is as close as it gets for now.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Random_R...ipe_Drop_Rates
Indeed. While I will likely do the necessary work at some point and figure out what I need to - and probably only the bare minimum that I need - I expect most people look at something like that and have no idea where to begin, and give up immediately. A simple, concisely written guide to help people determine what rolls to make would probably increase the number of people rolling, at least to some degree. Some advice on what recipes to look for and check prices on in which roll range and so on.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Forcing rolls is bad, especially for those people who are insane enough to lock a character at a specific level for rolls.

It might actually be detrimental to supply, as it will cause an oversupply at low levels where few people buy recipes while not allowing those who roll at levels of reasonable demand and low supply (30-40, for example) to save up.
In isolation, yes. However, in this case each suggestion assumes that all the suggestions before it have been implemented, so the forced random roll would be at a selectable level (so you wouldn't have to lock a character at a level to get rolls of that level).


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psara View Post
IMO, Merits aren't worth enough and MA tickets are worth too much. The system is set up to reward farming MA missions over doing TFs; I'd like to see the value of merits go up and that of tickets go down.

Past that, it might be nice to change the diminishing rewards system on merits to a completion-based outcome. Stealth the whole TF and basically just kill the bosses and AVs? Fewer merits but it's faster. Take the time to kill things? More merits but it takes longer. Average it out so you actually get a certain number of merits per time based on an average team.
The 2nd suggestion would be too easy to game.

And with that part of it out the first part is not a good idea.

Not everyone has time to do TFs.

I think the value of merits and tickets are perfect as is.

The only change needed is allowing folks to choose the level of what they roll.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post


It's that people who aren't familiar with the market or recipe pools aren't aware of what stuff sells for, what their chance of getting a worthwhile recipe with a random roll is, or that random roll is random. They roll, get a Trap of the Hunter, deem merits worthless, and start saving up to buy their LotG directly.
People seem to forget that there are enough players who've been around long enough who remember the old table that appeared at the end of tf and the AUTO random roll pool c option.

This table was the reason quick katies existed and at the time there was an abundance of pool Cs, at least blueside.

MANY folks actually rolled and got junk most of the time. Or at least enough times that they didn't LIKE the random part of it at all. THAT also explains why many folks SAVED up for what they wanted when merits came into existence.


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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnemnosyne View Post
I do have to add that allowing rolling at a specific level would be something I would very much desire, because at the moment I'm facing the unpleasant prospect of either locking my character at a lower level until I get all my recipes, to ensure I can get them at the level I want them, or leveling to 50 and potentially not getting the recipes I want at the level I want. Neither of those prospects appeals to me. Being able to continue leveling, but still be assured of getting the recipes at the level I want them at would be nice.


Indeed. While I will likely do the necessary work at some point and figure out what I need to - and probably only the bare minimum that I need - I expect most people look at something like that and have no idea where to begin, and give up immediately. A simple, concisely written guide to help people determine what rolls to make would probably increase the number of people rolling, at least to some degree. Some advice on what recipes to look for and check prices on in which roll range and so on.
Your first comments are also why some people like tickets over merits.


Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
In isolation, yes. However, in this case each suggestion assumes that all the suggestions before it have been implemented, so the forced random roll would be at a selectable level (so you wouldn't have to lock a character at a level to get rolls of that level).
Nope, would still be a bad suggestion. It goes against the very nature of one of the reasons why merits came into existence. At that point you might as well get rid of merits all together and go back to the old table at the end of a tf that popped up.


Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Hegemon View Post
Discussion questions are these: Is the Reward Merits system working as intended? Is it even functional?
Is it functional? Unquestionably, yes.
Working as intended? Can't answer that without knowing precisely what the devs DID intend and/or what they CURRENTLY intend (if it changed).

But I don't think either of those questions is particularly useful. I think the question should be whether the merit system has improved the game, or not. To that, my answer would be a qualified (very qualified) yes. Overall, I think we're better off with the merit system than without it, despite the negative impact it has had on the availability of sub-50 recipes on the market. I think a few changes could make my yes an unqualified one.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Why would I spend 240 merits on ONE thing, when that many merits will get me 12 chances for that one thing, and the very strong possibility that I'll get something else I need in the process?
In my case, two reasons:

1) I don't want a 'chance'. I want the item I want.

2) In some cases, I want it at a particular level. This is why all of my toons blow all merits on random rolls when they are in the mid 30's and I have a blaster at 37 with XP turned off. But if I have to have a LotG at level 25, then I buy it.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Nope, would still be a bad suggestion. It goes against the very nature of one of the reasons why merits came into existence. At that point you might as well get rid of merits all together and go back to the old table at the end of a tf that popped up.
You are correct that this suggestion is designed to roll back the majority of changes associated with merits (and thus the majority of changes they have brought about to recipe supply). The one change that it doesn't roll back is arguably the main purpose of merits in the first place: to make TF rewards proportional to their length instead of identical.

Edit: That said, I am completely unsurprised that this suggestion is the least popular. Note its position in the list. :P


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