Finally took Infernal down with my fire/sd
By
Borris_Black,
Posted on: 2010-04-18 24:57 in Scrappers
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Cheating.
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Originally Posted by Hejtmane
if you keep his minions in front of you and between him and you leverage the 7' length he uses less axe attacks so you get hit more with BOF and his fire blast
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I call it leveraging and something I was unaware of until this particular fight when i noticed it and moved around and found it to be the case. |
Originally Posted by Silverado
Cheating.
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But ok I cheated yay me still ( making fun of myself here)
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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Originally Posted by Hejtmane
I call it leveraging and something I was unaware of until this particular fight when i noticed it and moved around and found it to be the case.
But ok I cheated yay me still ( making fun of myself here) |
Meh, it's no more 'cheating' than using AAO fuel or picking SD for that matter. You just used a game mechanic to your advantage, nice job, imo.
This reminds me of something I noticed a while ago, while watching someones av soloing vids.
Are av's still on the 5' mellee range? The reason I ask is because in the video I watched, the guy was fighting an av that probably favored ranged, and seemed to be attacking at the edge of his 7' range and the av was only using ranged attacks against him. Makes me wonder if av's ever got the 7' range increase players did.
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Tactics.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
Cheating.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I am not sure it is not something I have noticed in the past because i always like to get up in the AV's and try to pack guys in around me the way they gathered this time just worked out and I noticed it so when I moved in and tried to get tighter he whipped out the axe attacks when I re-positioned his axe attacks slow way down. So I am not sure if it is an AI issue or a melee range issue. |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
This reminds me of something I noticed a while ago, while watching someones av soloing vids.
Are av's still on the 5' mellee range? The reason I ask is because in the video I watched, the guy was fighting an av that probably favored ranged, and seemed to be attacking at the edge of his 7' range and the av was only using ranged attacks against him. Makes me wonder if av's ever got the 7' range increase players did. |
If I remember correct some master mind pets do this as well get locked in on their ranged attack and forget their melee attacks.
Very good question and one I have not even a clue on how to test and verify if it is AI or the range of the attacks or a combo of the two.
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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Semantics.
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Originally Posted by Werner
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Originally Posted by Silverado
Cheating.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Tactics.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Semantics.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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He is exploiting a hole in the game mechanics (as described by Cyber_naut above) to give him an advantage, which is an unintended method of mitigation for the Scrapper AT.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Tactics.
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If anything, dishonorable tactics is what it would be called (you know, besides cheating)
That being said, I don't condemn him entirely. I know how much of a pain it is to take down Infernal on a Fire/ Scrapper. At least in my case I used inspirations.
Coming from someone who constantly brags about taking down AV/GMs with -regen alts. Ok dude, I'm sure the original vision for the game was that clicking one power every 30 seconds should completely flatline the regeneration of the toughest foes ingame, heh. I'm sure you didn't abuse the BoTZ sets on any of your alts to softcap ranged defense either, right ?
Seriously. Dude plays alts so easy you could run a macro on them to solo AVs, and comes to poo-poo someone's else thread about "cheating" for thinking outside the box with a subpar character for the task at hand ? Are you kidding me ?
For that matter, any AV soloing is exploitation of the game mechanics as it's supposed to be team encounters.
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If he didn't, it means his statement that it was a direct attack from the devs to him a bit weird.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Coming from someone who constantly brags about taking down AV/GMs with -regen alts. Ok dude, I'm sure the original vision for the game was that clicking one power every 30 seconds should completely flatline the regeneration of the toughest foes ingame, heh. I'm sure you didn't abuse the BoTZ sets on any of your alts to softcap ranged defense either, right ?
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Guess I don't see it that way. I don't see it as any different than, say, pulling. Again, you're exploiting the AI. SMART enemies would call everyone around them, hit the alarm button to alert the rest of the complex to where your team is, ignore the Tank's taunt, and shoot the squishies from range to avoid being nuked in a group. Or at least something smarter than running over one at a time, or bunching up at a corner and dying conveniently for you. |
Originally Posted by Silverado
He is exploiting a hole in the game mechanics (as described by Cyber_naut above) to give him an advantage, which is an unintended method of mitigation for the Scrapper AT.
If anything, dishonorable tactics is what it would be called (you know, besides cheating) |
This game doesn't have smart enemies unless you PvP. I exploit that continuously. If I want to make the game harder, I crank up the level or remove tools like inspirations. I'm not a role player. I don't even TRY to pretend that my enemies are smart, and then adjust my tactics to give them the same advantage they would have if they WERE smart. I'd feel completely stupid doing so. Accepting the AI for the stupid algorithm it is just seems like smart tactics to me. Or cheating. Or dishonorable. As Sarrate says, semantics, and it doesn't matter to me what you want to call it; it's what I'll do.
Not saying anyone else has to. If drawing a line for what parts of the AI you'll exploit makes for better immersion, or improves role play, or just makes the game more challenging in a fun way (e.g., RWZ challenge rules), have at it. I'm just not drawing that line personally. It doesn't generally improve my game play experience. I guess for me, allowing the stupid AI to outsmart me would make me feel even more stupid than, say, turning off all my toggles and running missions that way. Your mileage may differ.
OK, yes, I do I feel a little bad when I lure Tyrant into the lava. Poor little guy. But I still sleep at night.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Chill out kid, making appropiate builds to take down big mobs from range as a Defender or Corruptor doesn't even begin to compare to "taking advantage of" (being generous here) the range limitations mobs have, standing at 7ft away from them so that they are within your melee range but out of theirs (which is 5ft) as a Scrapper. That has nothing to do with picking legit powers and legit using IOs to achieve certain challenges (note that I'm not saying that his build is cheating, even considering the fact that Fire/Shield is fairly Op'd)|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Coming from someone who constantly brags about taking down AV/GMs with -regen alts. Ok dude, I'm sure the original vision for the game was that clicking one power every 30 seconds should completely flatline the regeneration of the toughest foes ingame, heh. I'm sure you didn't abuse the BoTZ sets on any of your alts to softcap ranged defense either, right ?
Seriously. Dude plays alts so easy you could run a macro on them to solo AVs, and comes to poo-poo someone's else thread about "cheating" for thinking outside the box with a subpar character for the task at hand ? Are you kidding me ? For that matter, any AV soloing is exploitation of the game mechanics as it's supposed to be team encounters. |
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Originally Posted by Werner
Guess I don't see it that way. I don't see it as any different than, say, pulling. Again, you're exploiting the AI. SMART enemies would call everyone around them, hit the alarm button to alert the rest of the complex to where your team is, ignore the Tank's taunt, and shoot the squishies from range to avoid being nuked in a group. Or at least something smarter than running over one at a time, or bunching up at a corner and dying conveniently for you.
This game doesn't have smart enemies unless you PvP. I exploit that continuously. If I want to make the game harder, I crank up the level or remove tools like inspirations. I'm not a role player. I don't even TRY to pretend that my enemies are smart, and then adjust my tactics to give them the same advantage they would have if they WERE smart. I'd feel completely stupid doing so. Accepting the AI for the stupid algorithm it is just seems like smart tactics to me. Or cheating. Or dishonorable. As Sarrate says, semantics, and it doesn't matter to me what you want to call it; it's what I'll do. Not saying anyone else has to. If drawing a line for what parts of the AI you'll exploit makes for better immersion, or improves role play, or just makes the game more challenging in a fun way (e.g., RWZ challenge rules), have at it. I'm just not drawing that line personally. It doesn't generally improve my game play experience. I guess for me, allowing the stupid AI to outsmart me would make me feel even more stupid than, say, turning off all my toggles and running missions that way. Your mileage may differ. OK, yes, I do I feel a little bad when I lure Tyrant into the lava. Poor little guy. But I still sleep at night. |
Besides, it's only a matter of time for devs to give mobs their 7ft range.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
He is exploiting a hole in the game mechanics (as described by Cyber_naut above) to give him an advantage, which is an unintended method of mitigation for the Scrapper AT.
If anything, dishonorable tactics is what it would be called (you know, besides cheating) That being said, I don't condemn him entirely. I know how much of a pain it is to take down Infernal on a Fire/ Scrapper. At least in my case I used inspirations. |
Cheating :P
So Silverado, I take it you view using imobilizes and then standing just outside of an enemy's attack range while pelting them with attacks is considered an exploit? I know many people who do that to mobs with short range attacks. You know, such as anything using a shotgun.
How about hovering just out of range of an enemy group, and sniping them repeatedly? Do you view that as an exploit too?
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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You mean with an AT that specializes in range? well gee, that is a tough one |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
So Silverado, I take it you view using imobilizes and then standing just outside of an enemy's attack range while pelting them with attacks is considered an exploit? I know many people who do that to mobs with short range attacks. You know, such as anything using a shotgun.
How about hovering just out of range of an enemy group, and sniping them repeatedly? Do you view that as an exploit too? |
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7ft melee range and 5ft melee range.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
You mean with an AT that specializes in range? well gee, that is a tough one
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Isn't this kinda like boxing? Where the boxer with the longer reach is consider to have an advantage in the fight?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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You can go ahead and find all the metaphors and analogies to sugar coat it all you want, but in the end it is what it is *shrug*
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Originally Posted by BrandX
7ft melee range and 5ft melee range.
Isn't this kinda like boxing? Where the boxer with the longer reach is consider to have an advantage in the fight? |
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Well, obviously any time we use smarter tactics than the computer, we're taking advantage of the limited AI, thus cheating. *shrugs*|
Originally Posted by BrandX
7ft melee range and 5ft melee range.
Isn't this kinda like boxing? Where the boxer with the longer reach is consider to have an advantage in the fight? |
Back to the OP, this reminds me of when I first beat Infernal w/my Fire/Rad, way before IOs, before imps were nerfed, before ED even. I can't remember if this was when he was like fully immune (90%?) to fire or merely 50% like he is now. It was a 30 min epic battle, mostly whittling him away w/smashing damage and running him in circles while my Imps refreshed, trying to eke out a bit of end for heals and generally staying alive. 30 min, but never boring--best AV fight I ever had. Gratz to Hejtmane for the accomplishment.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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And against an enemy which specializes in ranged attacks too. Sky Raider Porters tend to not teleport when immobilized. Is it 'cheating' to take advantage of that to keep them in one spot? You can confuse a force field generator to make it give you the defense instead of the enemy. Is that cheating? or is it using tactics?|
Originally Posted by Silverado
You mean with an AT that specializes in range? well gee, that is a tough one
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It's the same basic principle behind using Gang War when fighting an elite boss. Distract them, and/or keep them away from the thugs. In another fantasy based MMO I play people use shield walls to keep casters safe from a specific AV type quest chain boss. It's the same concept. The OP just used Inferno's minions for that.
I guess you feel it's cheating to get an enemy to pull out their melee weapon, then constantly back-peddle to avoid being hit by it too?
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
I think we've all played games where you encounter the boss that is super difficult and it suddenly gets stuck against a wall or something and you beat it down with impunity.
Glitching the AI. In the end you've reduced the difficulty of the encounter not through your own power selection (like immobing and picking away at them from range), but through a loophole in the system.
You can assign whatever moral designation to that you want, but I don't think it is working as intended.
That said, if the enemy was making an active attempt to use his melee on you and you kept blocking said use by constant repositioning so that obstacles were between you (even enemies in this case) then it would clearly be tactics.
edit: vs the ones with drawn weapons I know I am exploiting a weakness in the system and don't claim otherwise. Vs the ones that will still use ranged attacks, but are set to melee preference this is a great method.
I can think of a few times I've reduced the melee efficiency of certain AV's on my fire/traps by having my tangible traps between myself and the enemy and applying -jump to the AV. It will constantly attempt to reach me, but struggle to work past the obstacles buying me safety while I kill it.
*yes I know it is easier to just immob them with webgrenade, but not all of them immob easily and I'm generally pushing for speed kills rather than just kills itself.
*edit: that said a no insp kill on infernal with a fire scrapper is pretty good demonstration of damage though.
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While directed to Siverado, I'll give my opinion if anyone would like to hear it.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
I guess you feel it's cheating to get an enemy to pull out their melee weapon, then constantly back-peddle to avoid being hit by it too?
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This is indeed glitching the AI. It is a limitation of the game that once most npc's pull out a drawn weapon they will no longer utilize ranged attacks. Enemies with non-drawn melee don't suffer from this and some models that have specifically been hand-tweaked by the devs (like ninja's) are capable of using their ranged attacks while having their sword out because of this exact reason you cite. Players were getting upset that our powers were glitching out all the time.
The only difference is that the players were able to voice their concern over the problem while npcs can't.
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Infernal can't be immobilized, though there's usually no need to, since his fighting preference is set to ranged rather than melee, as I said before|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
*yes I know it is easier to just immob them with webgrenade, but not all of them immob easily and I'm generally pushing for speed kills rather than just kills itself.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
*edit: that said a no insp kill on infernal with a fire scrapper is pretty good demonstration of damage though.
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My comment regarding immobilization was not specific to infernal. Based on the comments you have put up in this thread and mine I'd say we are saying the same thing.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Infernal can't be immobilized, though there's usually no need to, since his fighting preference is set to ranged rather than melee, as I said before
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Relying on a glitch in the AI to defeat something is synonymous with saying you can't defeat it without the glitch.
Like the npc's that used to do /em walllean and not fight back at all. I think if you encountered an AV (infernal for the purposes of this conversation) doing that and beat him down everyone would agree that was not working as intended.
In this case we have 5ft vs 7ft and he isn't even trying to use melee despite being melee'd himself. To me it is as obvious as a wallleaning npc.
In this case I'm not seeing a huge difference between using this hole in the programming and putting him in an AE mission and setting yourself to invincible.
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Yea took a while with 50% fire resistance from that guy makes for a long battle
No temps or insp I also learn something this fight if you keep his minions in front of you and between him and you leverage the 7' length he uses less axe attacks so you get hit more with BOF and his fire blast
A little tip for anyone fighting him
I weeded all out but a group of minions; I could not get my AAO fully saturated they would just not herd up tight enough so I leveraged the 4-6 I could
I failed this a few times in the past, I was not planning it I was farming the bemounth for drops and I was irked I had not gotten him yet so I figured what the hay and gave it a shot
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA