Finally took Infernal down with my fire/sd
By
Borris_Black,
Posted on: 2010-04-18 24:57 in Scrappers
Quote:
He did not abandoned all attacks he was still hitting me and he still used his axe attacks just much less then he would if I was 5' vs 7' he tend to rely on his ranged attacks more often which still do damage and still carried risk I had a couple close calls in the battle. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
My comment regarding immobilization was not specific to infernal. Based on the comments you have put up in this thread and mine I'd say we are saying the same thing.
Relying on a glitch in the AI to defeat something is synonymous with saying you can't defeat it without the glitch. Like the npc's that used to do /em walllean and not fight back at all. I think if you encountered an AV (infernal for the purposes of this conversation) doing that and beat him down everyone would agree that was not working as intended. In this case we have 5ft vs 7ft and he isn't even trying to use melee despite being melee'd himself. To me it is as obvious as a wallleaning npc. In this case I'm not seeing a huge difference between using this hole in the programming and putting him in an AE mission and setting yourself to invincible. |
This was not hey the guy is not fighting back look here free attack on the idiot NPC. This was not one of those bugs like Hellions leaning against the wall and they never attack and just stand there like a punching bag (I have actually bugged than more than once).
I never expected this to turn into this but it is pretty funny
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
Quote:
I personally can totally see your viewpoint. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it as long as you are aware of what is occurring.|
Originally Posted by Werner
I do agree that the devs should fix this glitch. I don't WANT the computer to play like a retard. I'm just not going to follow its example.
I do think I understand the alternate point of view, and I agree that it's valid. Yeah, it's pretty obviously a hole in the AI that should be fixed. Yeah, I can see comparing it to beating on an NPC that somehow wasn't coded to fight back. Mind you, I'll do that too. I'm not going to go "Oh, he's not fighting back. I'd better stop hitting him before I get some undeserved XP." But anyway, can YOU at least see how it's also comparable to pulling? The difference, I suppose, is that the devs probably intended us to be able to pull. I just don't see that as significant. I've never cared what the devs INTENDED. Stupid NPCs are stupid NPCs in my book. I don't see the difference between a stupid NPC that runs over, alone, leaving his group, and a stupid NPC that prefers ranged attacks at anything over five feet, even though they have much more powerful melee attacks. I'm sure you don't agree, but can you at least see that point of view? It's all I ask.  |
while the 7ft to 5ft disparity may be intended by the devs it just seems out of place when you consider they have always (well not always always, but you know what I mean) been able to out-range US.
It seems weird that they would ensure out ranging npcs on a ranged attacker is extremely rare and then turn around and make it that way for every melee attack.
Just to clarify, my issue in this case isn't that Infernal prefers his ranged attacks, that is his prerogative, but rather that you can technically melee him without him being able to use melee back. Because this could happen to many npcs this isn't just an issue with infernal imo.
Now if he was detecting that the highest threat (ie his target) was using melee attacks and then prioritized his response to attempt a similar response this would be less of an issue. Then he would go nuts trying to reach you and to maintain that 2ft reach advantage would be extremely difficult (thus not fixing the technical problem, but a solid bandaid).
This particular example of Infernal was a demonstration of limited AI in conjunction with a technical gap in the programming. Limited AI is fair game imo as it is what it is, but a bug in the power coding (7ft vs 5ft) is definitely degrading this accomplishment. At least as I see it.
When a fire scrapper does defeat Infernal while facing his full wrath I don't think this particular technique will hold as much prestige.
tl;dr version: you shouldn't be able to use a melee attack on something without it being able to use a melee attack on you. Given the historical changes that have been made to ensure npc retaliation I think it is fair to say this is likely a bug. It may be low priority as it rarely occurs in practice, but it is technically there on every encounter.
Quote:
I understand what you are saying, but lets flip the scenario.|
Originally Posted by Hejtmane
He did not abandoned all attacks he was still hitting me and he still used his axe attacks just much less then he would if I was 5' vs 7' he tend to rely on his ranged attacks more often which still do damage and still carried risk I had a couple close calls in the battle.
This was not hey the guy is not fighting back look here free attack on the idiot NPC. This was not one of those bugs like Hellions leaning against the wall and they never attack and just stand there like a punching bag (I have actually bugged than more than once). I never expected this to turn into this but it is pretty funny |
Imagine if Infernal summoned his demons and they prevented you from using your melee attacks for much of the encounter by blocking your access to him. Occasionally they might shift around and allow you to get a shot it, but the rest of the time you are stuck using your ranged options. Which are much less powerful.
Also Imagine Infernals attacks where all like cleave and had extra range build into them. Enough range where he could use his axe attacks, but you were unable to fight back with anything other than ranged attacks.
You might say. Well I'd just kill the demons and that would make it a cool encounter. Ya it kinda would
. But now imagine if the demons could not be injured and all they did was block you the entire time.I think most people would cry foul on the encounter.
First, I need to get something out of my system... Yay! *happy scrapper dance* (Thanks for understanding my point of view, even if we disagree. )
Anyway, on to the topic at hand. Yes, I'd cry found on the encounter. And I'd cry foul if the game mechanics forced me into any situation where I was as hamstrung as the computer is with it's stupid AI. This is merely one of a myriad of possible examples. Again, I don't think that means I should have to play like I'm completely clueless just because the computer does. And if the devs FORCED me to play like I had no clue what was going on, or otherwise tied my hands behind my back so that the fight with the computer would be "fair", I'd find another game, not just cry foul.
All Infernal has to do is close. Nothing is stopping him except how stupid the AI is, and hopefully that will eventually get fixed. If the situations were reversed (me with 5' range, him with 7' range), it wouldn't cause me a serious problem, because I'm not a stupid computer AI. I KNOW my melee attacks are better than my ranged attacks, so I'll close to melee. Infernal seems to be lacking that knowledge. Bummer for him.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
What's stopping him from closing is his preference for ranged (which is fine) and his summoned demons (also fine).|
Originally Posted by Werner
All Infernal has to do is close. Nothing is stopping him except how stupid the AI is, and hopefully that will eventually get fixed. If the situations were reversed (me with 5' range, him with 7' range), it wouldn't cause me a serious problem, because I'm not a stupid computer AI. I KNOW my melee attacks are better than my ranged attacks, so I'll close to melee. Infernal seems to be lacking that knowledge. Bummer for him.
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What's preventing him from using his melee attacks while being melee'd himself is the range disparity of player powers and npc powers introduced not too long ago. If used to maximum effect the only attacks he'd be using with his axe are whirling and cleave. He doesn't have cleave so limiting him to just whirling is a huge decline to how potent he is designed to be against melee using characters.*
* He is supposed to use beheader, chop, gash, pendulum, and whirling during a melee encounter.
The limitation of the AI (no argument from me about it being retarded) makes this problem standout, but it is the range disparity that is the actual problem.
In fact a resourceful scrapper using weapons mastery- webnade can trivialize many AV encounters simply because for a well built scrapper surviving their ranged output isn't a challenge at all and they won't be able to use melee while you can. So you gain all the advantages of being a melee toon such as mez protection, survivability, and very high damage, but none of the risks designed to accompany it.
In this case it was using an npc to axe-block him (hehe) and I suppose it is easy enough to pin on the lack of AI. But what about a webnading scrapper vs the many AV's that have an immob hole? I don't think you can really blame the AI in that situation and yet the result is exactly the same. You are using melee attacks and the NPC can not due to the range disparity. You would literally be standing there punching him in the face and he can't punch you back.
An excellent example would be Chimera. His katana is pretty deadly for many melee range characters due to the -def, inherent acc, and high damage. Whereas his bow attacks render him one of the least threatening AV's in the game when taken from range.
*edit: this isn't just AV's either you can do it to pretty much any NPC with just webnade. Like freak tanks for instance - dangerous in melee, kittens from range.
Quote:
Chimera is buggy period I have defeated him more than once where he had his sword out the entire time I have also beat him while even in melee range and I mean right next to him and he never put the bow away he is just flat out broken
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
What's stopping him from closing is his preference for ranged (which is fine) and his summoned demons (also fine).
What's preventing him from using his melee attacks while being melee'd himself is the range disparity of player powers and npc powers introduced not too long ago. If used to maximum effect the only attacks he'd be using with his axe are whirling and cleave. He doesn't have cleave so limiting him to just whirling is a huge decline to how potent he is designed to be against melee using characters.* * He is supposed to use beheader, chop, gash, pendulum, and whirling during a melee encounter. The limitation of the AI (no argument from me about it being retarded) makes this problem standout, but it is the range disparity that is the actual problem. In fact a resourceful scrapper using weapons mastery- webnade can trivialize many AV encounters simply because for a well built scrapper surviving their ranged output isn't a challenge at all and they won't be able to use melee while you can. So you gain all the advantages of being a melee toon such as mez protection, survivability, and very high damage, but none of the risks designed to accompany it. In this case it was using an npc to axe-block him (hehe) and I suppose it is easy enough to pin on the lack of AI. But what about a webnading scrapper vs the many AV's that have an immob hole? I don't think you can really blame the AI in that situation and yet the result is exactly the same. You are using melee attacks and the NPC can not due to the range disparity. You would literally be standing there punching him in the face and he can't punch you back. An excellent example would be Chimera. His katana is pretty deadly for many melee range characters due to the -def, inherent acc, and high damage. Whereas his bow attacks render him one of the least threatening AV's in the game when taken from range. *edit: this isn't just AV's either you can do it to pretty much any NPC with just webnade. Like freak tanks for instance - dangerous in melee, kittens from range. |
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
Quote:
Chimera was just an example of an AV that is pretty deadly in melee and a kitten from range. I only used him as most of us are familiar with fighting the AV. Whether he uses one mode or the other in the correct situation is irrelevant to the point I was making and is a separate problem all together. I also cited freak tanks as their melee proficiency is much higher than their ranged.|
Originally Posted by Hejtmane
Chimera is buggy period I have defeated him more than once where he had his sword out the entire time I have also beat him while even in melee range and I mean right next to him and he never put the bow away he is just flat out broken
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But you can look at pretty much every NPC in the game as most of them tend to be more dangerous in melee than when using their ranged attacks.
The big three melee AT's all have access to immobs in their epic powers. Ring of fire is probably the best one available to scraps/tanks as it is the fastest and still boasts decent damage. The brute ones are all aoe on longer timers so can't be used as well to exploit this tactic vs tougher enemies.
I'm not claiming this is a major issue that needs to be resolved immediately, but it is a bug in the programming that will likely be fixed at some point.
Well done on beating Infernal I fought him with my EM Ele brute and I recall it took several attempts, and in the end I think I used a couple of insps. I think I was Lev 48 at the time, I do recall that I was glad to see the back of him only to fight him again and his mother in the next mission.
"if you ever get offered a burger from a clown and its not ronald mcdonald don�t eat it, I learnt that the hard way"
I do agree that the devs should fix this glitch. I don't WANT the computer to play like a retard. I'm just not going to follow its example.
I do think I understand the alternate point of view, and I agree that it's valid. Yeah, it's pretty obviously a hole in the AI that should be fixed. Yeah, I can see comparing it to beating on an NPC that somehow wasn't coded to fight back. Mind you, I'll do that too. I'm not going to go "Oh, he's not fighting back. I'd better stop hitting him before I get some undeserved XP." But anyway, can YOU at least see how it's also comparable to pulling? The difference, I suppose, is that the devs probably intended us to be able to pull. I just don't see that as significant. I've never cared what the devs INTENDED. Stupid NPCs are stupid NPCs in my book. I don't see the difference between a stupid NPC that runs over, alone, leaving his group, and a stupid NPC that prefers ranged attacks at anything over five feet, even though they have much more powerful melee attacks. I'm sure you don't agree, but can you at least see that point of view? It's all I ask.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks