Short Answer: No
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
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Neither power has -recharge, both are -speed (movement).
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Originally Posted by Mr_Heat_Stroke
I would think Earth/Dark would be pretty over powered. Quick Sand and a Tar Patch would not only floor the recharge of mobs, but practically neuter them with all that -def and -resist.
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L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Giving Dark to Controllers would be the last piece in the puzzle of having Controllers be superior to Defenders in every way. (I say this as a Controller player, not as a sad troll from the Defenders forum.)
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Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet
Giving Dark to Controllers would be the last piece in the puzzle of having Controllers be superior to Defenders in every way. (I say this as a Controller player, not as a sad troll from the Defenders forum.)
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I disagree. At least partly. An AT should not be defined by what powersets it gets that others don't. How is a Force Field or Storm Defender helped because Dark isn't available to Controllers? The answer is they aren't. If Defenders need help (and IMO, actually, they do, even with the new changes) keeping powersets unique to them does nothing for them.
IMO Defenders should get bigger radii on their buffs and debuff AoEs. It will probably never happen but it would be one thing that would kick me into playing Defenders over Controllers.
While it may be argued whether or not Dark Servant is overpowered, the fact remains, there would be no way the devs would let you have TWO Dark Servants. And since Dark Control would have the priority for the pet, most likely it would be dropped from that version of Miasma and put into Control.
It's possible Dark Servant could be put on a large recharge timer, like with Masterminds, but that's where my argument comes from. The devs realized in Beta that the combination of Dark Servant and Lich was way too powerful because of the redudancy between the two. While they did have their differences, they were stacking effects to make them more powerful.
I consider it much more likely that Dark Miasma will lose some powers to Dark Control, and then gain some pure buffing/debuffing powers to replace them. Parylizing Gaze isn't really a problem, but Fearsome Stare is, as I can see that becoming a power in Dark Control. (Single target holds in Control Sets usually deal damage, and Parylizing Gaze doesn't. But an AoE fear is much more a Control Set power)
In short, I suspect that Dark/Dark Defenders, Corruptors, Controllers and Dominators will share many of the same powers, but not always in the same sets. Controllers and Dominators will have powers that Defenders and Corruptors have in Dark Miasma, and Defenders, Corruptors and Dominators will have powers in their attack sets (like Dark Pit or Tenabrous Tentacles) that Controllers will have in Dark Miasma. And Defenders and Corruptors will have their Dark Servant, while Dominators and Controllers will have something like Lich. (i.e., Dark Servant with damage)
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You're pretty much right here, Tex - I was just making a basically off topic observation about how Defenders simply aren't as good as Controllers. I do think Dark on Controllers steering into overpowered territory, not so much because it stacks control, but because it's just so darn good at debuffing. If you can control everything, and debuff everything, it's hard to see how your team takes damage. Yes, you can make the same argument for Rad (and Rad is obviously one of the top couple control secondaries), but Dark is even better, IMO. Who needs any other support? Just bring along an x/Dark Controller.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I disagree. At least partly. An AT should not be defined by what powersets it gets that others don't. How is a Force Field or Storm Defender helped because Dark isn't available to Controllers? The answer is they aren't. If Defenders need help (and IMO, actually, they do, even with the new changes) keeping powersets unique to them does nothing for them.
IMO Defenders should get bigger radii on their buffs and debuff AoEs. It will probably never happen but it would be one thing that would kick me into playing Defenders over Controllers. |
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The debuffing effects for Dark would be less for a Controller, and Dark, unlike Rad, has almost no offensive bonuses to offer. Defense is ALL that it does, outside of the -Res in Tar Patch. |
Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet
You're pretty much right here, Tex - I was just making a basically off topic observation about how Defenders simply aren't as good as Controllers. I do think Dark on Controllers steering into overpowered territory, not so much because it stacks control, but because it's just so darn good at debuffing. If you can control everything, and debuff everything, it's hard to see how your team takes damage. Yes, you can make the same argument for Rad (and Rad is obviously one of the top couple control secondaries), but Dark is even better, IMO. Who needs any other support? Just bring along an x/Dark Controller.
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A /Dark Controller, as far as debuffs go, would be identical to having a /Dark Corruptor on the team. And all Controllers have the ability to stack control on top of the support capabilities of the Secondary. The only place that's unique to /Dark or /TA is where you can stack the control effects across the Primary and Secondary. (And the Controller would actually have stronger holds in either Dark or TA than either the Defender or Controller)
Yeah, we'd need all new powersets basically that are dark themed so that while effects could overlap, you wouldn't get overlap of the exact same power. It'd require mixing, matching, and making new powers.
Here's what I see happening... (Note: N means a "new power" i imagined, though it's probably based off an existing power. R stands for "Repurposed", that is, an existing power with something added or taken away to better fit the general theme of Controller power progression. O is an original power from an existing Dark powerset that's remained untouched. Note that moving a power from Miasma or Blast and putting it into the Control or Manipulation category is not considered "re-purposing", even though technically it is)
Dark Control:
* Dark Ensnarement: ST immob, minor DoT, -ToHit (N)
* Instill Fear: ST Fear, moderate damage, -ToHit (N)
* Dark Gaze: ST Hold, minor damage (N)
* Tenebrous Tentacles: AoE Immob, -ToHit (R- removed damage)
* Dark Cage: ST Intangible (N)
* Fearsome Stare: AoE Cone fear, minor damage, -ToHit (R- added damage)
* Ominous Vortex: AoE Hold, standard AoE hold stats (N)
* Dark Pit: AoE Stun, minor damage (R- added damage)
* Dark Servant: Pet (O)
Dark Manipulation:
* Twilight Grasp: ST Foe -ToHit, -Dam, -Regen; team Heal (O)
* Tar Patch: Location AoE, foe -fly, -jump, -run, -res (O)
* Darkest Night: AoE Foe -Dam, -ToHit (O)
* Howling Twilight: AoE stun, -run, -dam, -recharge, minor damage; Ally Rez (O)
* Shadow Fall: PBAoE Team Stealth, +Def (all), +Res (En, Neg En, Psi, fear) (O)
* Torrent: Cone AoE KB, minor damage, -ToHit (O)
* Dark exchange: Self damage (30% of HP, unrecoverable for 30 seconds), Target ally -15 Mag vs Hold, Stun, Disorient, Sleep, Fear, Confuse and TP Foe; +15% res vs Energy, Dark, and Psi for 2 minutes. Recharge: 150 seconds (2 and a half minutes) (N)
* Petrifying Gaze: Toggle, ST Hold (R- made into a toggle so that, as a controller, it isn't AS easy to stack holds.)
* Black Hole: AoE Foe Intangible (O)
That's my 2 Inf anyway. *shrug*
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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The point you make regarding the hold times of Controller hold times is an excellent one - that Controllers get longer hold times in a secondary power than Defenders get in their primary is quite silly.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The debuffing effects for Dark would be less for a Controller, and Dark, unlike Rad, has almost no offensive bonuses to offer. Defense is ALL that it does, outside of the -Res in Tar Patch.
A /Dark Controller, as far as debuffs go, would be identical to having a /Dark Corruptor on the team. And all Controllers have the ability to stack control on top of the support capabilities of the Secondary. The only place that's unique to /Dark or /TA is where you can stack the control effects across the Primary and Secondary. (And the Controller would actually have stronger holds in either Dark or TA than either the Defender or Controller) |
That the Secondary would be equivalent to a Dark Corruptor - well, exactly. Dark Corruptors are the best Corruptors there are, IMO, and Corruptors can't hold a candle to Controllers in either soloability or team effectiveness (a Corruptor's scaled down Blaster damage isn't better than a Controller primary, unless you're just a terrible Controller).
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Silly, yes, but not entirely unexpected. The problem is that Buff/Debuff sets are a combination of buffs, debuffs, and "soft" controls like knockback and slow. That's not really a problem, since Defenders and Controllers get the same modifier (now...) with knockback and slow, but harder controls, disorient, and holds, they are subject to the base laws of the ATs. Which is, "Controllers are the best at controlling". Period. Which is the Primary and which is the Secondary, despite what logic should tell you, doesn't figure into it. |
Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet
The point you make regarding the hold times of Controller hold times is an excellent one - that Controllers get longer hold times in a secondary power than Defenders get in their primary is quite silly.
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Looking at the problem even further, the Control sets seem to specialize with hard controls, particularly AoEs, while Buff/Debuff sets have the same AoE capability, but softer controls. Their harder controls are typically single target. Blaster Secondaries have harder controls as well, but specialize more with single targets, NOT AoEs. So while the three original ranged AT obviously were designed around a combination of ranged attacks, buffs, debuffs, and controls, the way the controls were split up kind of gave Controllers the advantage.
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| That the Secondary would be equivalent to a Dark Corruptor - well, exactly. Dark Corruptors are the best Corruptors there are, IMO, and Corruptors can't hold a candle to Controllers in either soloability or team effectiveness (a Corruptor's scaled down Blaster damage isn't better than a Controller primary, unless you're just a terrible Controller). |
Not that I would argue the point. Although as I said, Dark is one of the least offensive Buff/Debuff sets available. I find it to be somewhat tedious for that reason, although of course it is well suited for a pure support role.
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Kind of, yeah. More like Controllers are the most powerful class that has Debuffs, and Dark is the most powerful Debuff set, so combining chocolate and peanut butter here is likely to result in the new fotm. Or maybe not, since most fotm toons are characterized by huge damage, not the huge survivability provided by Dark.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
It sounds like your point is basically that Dark Miasma is overpowered in any AT that it is given to, and thus it should not be given to Controllers just because it is best that for now it's the one AT that doesn't get overpowered by it. |
Well I think if we're going to hypothesize about a Dark Control set we should remember that it's not something we're likely to see until around.. 2012 at the earliest. Since the start of the game there have only been 2 new control sets released. We're getting Electric Control, which, while exciting, was kind of a let down for me since all the other new powersets have been something truly new. So, for selfish reasons, I'm kind of hoping Dark Control never happens and we end up with an adjusted Dark Miasma.
Also, FYI, Dark Miasma only has two mezzes. One is a single target hold. Sure you can insta-hold a boss.. except on a Controller that isn't that needed since our holds recharge so fast anyway. The other mezz is the cone fear, which truly is problematic but could be solved by narrowing the arc of the cone or replacing that power for Controllers. A version of Cloak of Fear would be an easy enough switch. Dark Miasma already got similar adjustments on Masterminds (smaller radius on the heal for example).
As for the pet, it's truly not that big a deal with Masterminds running around. While it's a hardy little thing and truthfully better than the pet Ice or Plant gets, it's also better than a lot of MM pets. If it's still considered a problem, jack up the recharge on him so he can't be perma'ed and he's fixed right there.
As Much as I want to see a Dark Miasma ported over to Controllers as a Secondary,
the more I read about it and think about it, I would bet money that we get a new "Dark" control set added to Dominators and Controllers and then nothing else.
Then Corruptors and Defenders will share "Dark Miasma" while Controllers and Dominators have their own version of "Dark".
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Hello,|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
(...)
Also, FYI, Dark Miasma only has two mezzes. One is a single target hold. Sure you can insta-hold a boss.. except on a Controller that isn't that needed since our holds recharge so fast anyway. The other mezz is the cone fear, which truly is problematic but could be solved by narrowing the arc of the cone or replacing that power for Controllers. A version of Cloak of Fear would be an easy enough switch. Dark Miasma already got similar adjustments on Masterminds (smaller radius on the heal for example). (...) |
Sorry you forgot the AOE stun provided by Howling twilight
Lord Haart
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Oh oops, I always do. Mostly because I never use the power for that, guess it would be different if my Dark was Dark Blast. | Sorry you forgot the AOE stun provided by Howling twilight. |
Howling Twilight is pretty ridiculously awesome, but IMO the stun is the least of anyone's worries. There would be some Fire and Earth Controllers living up the stacking with that power, but they can already do that with Thunderclap, on a 45 second recharge vs 180. Not a huge deal to me.
Actually what it makes me wonder though is if we hadn't received Storm Summoning or Trick Arrow in the original push of powersets, if we wouldn't have imagined they'd be overpowered.
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lol I was nearly gunna post the same thing earlier...well only as far as Dark Control was concerned, since I don't see a Dark Miasma remake for controllers. Yet I wouldn't remove damage from TT as it would be the source of your containment damage. Using your setup, and what I would change..|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Yeah, we'd need all new powersets basically that are dark themed so that while effects could overlap, you wouldn't get overlap of the exact same power. It'd require mixing, matching, and making new powers.
Here's what I see happening... (Note: N means a "new power" i imagined, though it's probably based off an existing power. R stands for "Repurposed", that is, an existing power with something added or taken away to better fit the general theme of Controller power progression. O is an original power from an existing Dark powerset that's remained untouched. Note that moving a power from Miasma or Blast and putting it into the Control or Manipulation category is not considered "re-purposing", even though technically it is) Dark Control: * Dark Ensnarement: ST immob, minor DoT, -ToHit (N) * Instill Fear: ST Fear, moderate damage, -ToHit (N) * Dark Gaze: ST Hold, minor damage (N) * Tenebrous Tentacles: AoE Immob, -ToHit (R- removed damage) * Dark Cage: ST Intangible (N) * Fearsome Stare: AoE Cone fear, minor damage, -ToHit (R- added damage) * Ominous Vortex: AoE Hold, standard AoE hold stats (N) * Dark Pit: AoE Stun, minor damage (R- added damage) * Dark Servant: Pet (O) Dark Manipulation: * Twilight Grasp: ST Foe -ToHit, -Dam, -Regen; team Heal (O) * Tar Patch: Location AoE, foe -fly, -jump, -run, -res (O) * Darkest Night: AoE Foe -Dam, -ToHit (O) * Howling Twilight: AoE stun, -run, -dam, -recharge, minor damage; Ally Rez (O) * Shadow Fall: PBAoE Team Stealth, +Def (all), +Res (En, Neg En, Psi, fear) (O) * Torrent: Cone AoE KB, minor damage, -ToHit (O) * Dark exchange: Self damage (30% of HP, unrecoverable for 30 seconds), Target ally -15 Mag vs Hold, Stun, Disorient, Sleep, Fear, Confuse and TP Foe; +15% res vs Energy, Dark, and Psi for 2 minutes. Recharge: 150 seconds (2 and a half minutes) (N) * Petrifying Gaze: Toggle, ST Hold (R- made into a toggle so that, as a controller, it isn't AS easy to stack holds.) * Black Hole: AoE Foe Intangible (O) That's my 2 Inf anyway. *shrug* |
Dark Control:
* Midnight Grasp: ST immob, minor DoT, -ToHit (N)
* Petrifying Gaze: ST Hold, minor damage (N)
* Tenebrous Tentacles: Ranged AoE Immob, -ToHit
* Tar Patch: Location AoE, foe -fly, -jump, -run, -res
* Shadow Fall: PBAoE Team Stealth, +Def (all), +Res (En, Neg En, Psi, fear)
* Fearsome Stare: AoE Cone fear, minor damage, -ToHit (R- added damage)
* Ominous Vortex/Abysmal Maw(my name for it
): AoE Hold, standard AoE hold stats (N)* Dark Serenade: AoE Sleep, minor damage, -ToHit
* Dark Servant: Pet (O)
Something like that would work with just the powers available already in the game....save the AoE hold...and I don't think they could have both a stun/fear in same set as that would probably prove way overpowering for a controller.
Freedom Bound!!!
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Dark Servant wouldn't make a good primary pet; it would stack way too much with a Dark Servant from a Dark secondary on one hand (which is where Dark Servant belongs), and not contribute to damage on the other. You want something focused more on damage than debuffs; I'd have a power that summons some new pet(s) with a name like "Darkspawn". Heavy negative energy damage but much lower in debuffs than Dark servant.|
Originally Posted by MentalMidget
Dark Control:
< snip > * Dark Servant: Pet (O) |
So a high level Dark/Dark controller in my scheme would for pets have a Dark Servant and one or more Darkspawn.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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My idea was behind the fact Dark Miasma would not be ported, but they inturn would make a Dark Control set featuring what was available currently ingame. I understand though what you mean by Dark Servant wouldn't make a good pet, and I had an idea that it wouldn't contribute much damage until I thought about Singularity/Fly Trap, thus distracting me from posting my own pet idea lol.|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Dark Servant wouldn't make a good primary pet; it would stack way too much with a Dark Servant from a Dark secondary on one hand (which is where Dark Servant belongs), and not contribute to damage on the other. You want something focused more on damage than debuffs; I'd have a power that summons some new pet(s) with a name like "Darkspawn". Heavy negative energy damage but much lower in debuffs than Dark servant.
So a high level Dark/Dark controller in my scheme would for pets have a Dark Servant and one or more Darkspawn. |
My own idea for a pet with Dark Control would go as follows:
Shadow Minion(Darkspawn if you like).
Summon Shadow: Melee Moderate DMG(Negative)
Attacks:
Tenebrous Tentacles (or Midnight Grasp)
Smite
Shadow Punch
Resists:
Slash/Lethal
Negative
Toxic
Psionic
Not posting numbers, but I'm sure people can get the jist of it being scrapperish/dom-like, maybe being able to summon 2 would be great (of course TT would be so spammed if that was a power choice for them).
Freedom Bound!!!
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You'll note that i took dark servant out of dark manipulation (controller secondary) in my list, so no, they wouldn't stack!
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Dark Servant wouldn't make a good primary pet; it would stack way too much with a Dark Servant from a Dark secondary on one hand (which is where Dark Servant belongs), and not contribute to damage on the other. You want something focused more on damage than debuffs; I'd have a power that summons some new pet(s) with a name like "Darkspawn". Heavy negative energy damage but much lower in debuffs than Dark servant.
So a high level Dark/Dark controller in my scheme would for pets have a Dark Servant and one or more Darkspawn. |
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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People take Freezing Arrow? That ability is just awful once you have single origins on your primary hold... The animation time is agonizing, it does no damage, and it has a short duration. :/
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
I do see the issue with interconnection. As far as stacking controls goes, I don't think it's significantly worse than /cold or /storm can get. The biggest balance issue it has imo is that people would no longer be able to point to stacked holds as a reason to consider Trick Arrow acceptable in its current form.
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Originally Posted by StabBot
People take Freezing Arrow? That ability is just awful once you have single origins on your primary hold... The animation time is agonizing, it does no damage, and it has a short duration. :/
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Agreed. I was in a debate with someone a few months back in which he called Trick Arrow "nearly overpowered" on a Controller because of this power. It left me somewhat mystified. I once did take Ice Arrow with the idea of holding bosses, but quickly specced out of it after realizing how little value it added.
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Erm, the cast time is 1.83 seconds, which is right on par with all the other controller ST holds except mind's and fire's. Perhaps you haven't tried it since the most recent set of animation time reductions? And while it does no damage, does that really matter? It's not like your ST hold is a real damage powerhouse for you either way. It does have a shorter duration, but it's not *that* bad, especially given the power's most likely uses.|
Originally Posted by StabBot
People take Freezing Arrow? That ability is just awful once you have single origins on your primary hold... The animation time is agonizing, it does no damage, and it has a short duration. :/
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Mind you, trick arrow *does* have several problems that could use looking at, but freezing arrow isn't one of them.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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I apologize for derailing this conversation, but it seems like all the bases of the original topic have been covered, so I'll follow up on the Freezing Arrow thing.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Erm, the cast time is 1.83 seconds, which is right on par with all the other controller ST holds except mind's and fire's. Perhaps you haven't tried it since the most recent set of animation time reductions? And while it does no damage, does that really matter? It's not like your ST hold is a real damage powerhouse for you either way. It does have a shorter duration, but it's not *that* bad, especially given the power's most likely uses.
Mind you, trick arrow *does* have several problems that could use looking at, but freezing arrow isn't one of them. |
First off I'm skeptical about the animation time of the ability, when was the change made? I believe I leveled up my Ill/TA character during i15 and I got very little mileage out of TA.
Second off, sorry to nitpick, but Blind also has a 1.67s activation time.
Third, regardless of what people say, I still have misgivings about redraw animations. I'd heard before they don't actually increase the time it takes for the activation to complete, but generally speaking TA doesn't feel especially responsive and Freezing Arrow is no exception.
Fourth, the duration and recharge really are quite bad. At 50 you're looking at an 18 second recharge on a 15 second hold, vs. a 9 second cooldown on an 18 second hold... The thing is when Hasten, your set bonuses, and your hold enhancements are running the amount of time it takes to just recast your primary hold is so small that I felt I was better off just casting some other ability to wait out the cooldown than firing off an Ice Arrow that's going to be overkill a second later when my primary hold comes back up.
Perhaps that's becaues as Ill/TA I can just alternate between Deceive and Blind anyway, but I still feel that really any controller is going to get more mileage out of picking up a different power than they would from Freezing Arrow.
I'd be curious about what builds actually do take FA, because I would wager that I could find a different ability swap out for it.
I don't necessarily feel that TA is underpowered when my damn Oil Slick Arrow actually works correctly, I just don't feel that Freezing Arrow is especially useful for a Controller in the long run.
Also I'm curious about what sort of changes you would make to TA. Personally I find the debuff procedure tedious.
I think giving controllers the Master Mind version of Dark Miasma could work. It's already been adjusted to compensate for the control, damage, and debuffing of the powerful pet primaries. Though some people would argue /Dark MM's are overpowered.
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi