AE, worst issue release since game began?
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2010-04-10 06:32 in Mission Architect
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| I actually forgot i13 even existed it was that minor lol, other than the PvP destruction I dont even think there was anything worth mentioning in it. Most pointless issue award goes to that one |
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Ya if you weren't interested in pvp then i13 was just a long load time for the game (patching) heh.
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"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I don't know your posting history, so I don't know if this is a long term habit of yours . . . |
Originally Posted by Solo_One
we had a good run, after the gr surge dies down this game will be dead.
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But I DO know that almost identical posts to this one by you, have been being posted since before we could wear capes .....
Constantly someone telling us we were within a very few months till DOOOOOOOOOM!
Have fun with your prognosticating!
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I expect a lot of poorly thought out whining, so I'm going to ignore this post and thread.
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If true (and I have no reason to believe it's not) then the cap is so high as to be meaningless.
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Originally Posted by macskull
There is, believe it or not, a hard cap on leveling speed, and it's been in the game since way before I14.
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Perhaps an exp cap in AE is what the devs were thinking about to stop AE farmers? Get so much exp then have to wait a day or so to start earning more? It could work... as long as the caps not too high.
Sounds like a great idea to me, better than the original idea of removing exp in all honesty. If thats implemented I would go as far to say problem solved... if its not a stupidly high cap.
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their best solution to stop exploit farming in AE is to implement a cap per map of xp/inf/ect like they did with tickets|
Originally Posted by Predatoric
Perhaps an exp cap in AE is what the devs were thinking about to stop AE farmers? Get so much exp then have to wait a day or so to start earning more? It could work... as long as the caps not too high.
Sounds like a great idea to me, better than the original idea of removing exp in all honesty. If thats implemented I would go as far to say problem solved... if its not a stupidly high cap. |
do i like that solution? no, i hated the ticket cap on maps (still do actually), but thats possibly the easiest solution to implement and it would be very hard to get around it (so far there havent been any exploits with getting around the ticket cap as far as per map ticket cap)
with that solution any exploit that does show itself will essentially be pointless if you hit the mish xp cap in 1-2 kills, then you basically have to reset
even "efficient" AE farms (efficient as in they grant normal rewards and take a normal effort) will be hit the most, the per map xp cap most likely wouldnt affect any of the normal story mishs and not affect poeple who are using the system as intended, but still grant the devs the ability to say that AE is an "alternate leveling path"
if this type of fix was implemented, then even buff bot farms wouldnt be very efficient since most farms would have WAY more enemies than the xp/inf cap of the map would be allowed
the only hard portion of instituting an xp/inf cap on each map would be that it would have to scale with lvl (easy way to limit xp would be limiting how many bars of xp a person could get, while i have no idea what they could do for an inf cap)
You guys really think an XP hard cap would fix AE. Really.
Weren't you around for the Ticket Cap "fix"? It was just a mild annoyance towards farmers and exploiters. Diminishing returns on repetition of an arc/mission, XP Cap per day, and all the derivatives of this "solution" simply would not work. It's called point-of-efficiency; and that's the only thing farmers are -really- good at finding.
As I stated previously, the only thing that would "fix" the problems with AE is something along the lines of just stripping XP and rewards from non-developer-approved stories. And as we all may expect, this would simply mean that AE will turn into a ghost-town -- worse than now.
Unless...
The developers actually put some effort into picking out stories and promoting the good ones. Maybe even hire volunteer players with the sole purpose of playing arcs and rating them based on their standards. But this really only sounds good in theory...
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What does this have anything to do with AE and Issue 14?
Originally Posted by Solo_One
we had a good run, after the gr surge dies down this game will be dead.
Oh wait! You're one of those that thinks every issue is the end of the game, especially Issue 14! I know your type! 
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Reply to this (and all the others that say adding an XP/inf per map cap is a good idea):|
Originally Posted by firespray
If true (and I have no reason to believe it's not) then the cap is so high as to be meaningless.
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The leveling speed cap actually came into play with that exemplared MM pet farm that got nuked a few weeks back. Adding an XP cap per map would only achieve the same thing adding a ticket cap did: farmers would just exit and reset the mission once they hit the cap. All it would do it add a bit of time in to reset the mission, without actually solving the "problem" (there's a problem here? news to me).
Also: lol at the people who seem to think they know who Solo is or what he's talking about.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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You're right, the only thing I've really used from that list is shields and merits, but it might just reinforce what JazMan pointed out.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Shields and Pain powersets. Dual builds. Level pacts. Merits. Super Group Prestige refunds and rent reduction. Villains get to change their patron power pools. Daedalus and Sister Arlia added to Cimerora. Are you guys sure you're talking about the right issue?
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Originally Posted by TheJazMan
Oh, my only other fear is GR and future issues will be as repetitive as most of what we have been given lately. Give us things to do. The ITF is a great example. New powers are cool but it's a new toy for the same old missions - a band-aid cure for the problem.
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stalker much?|
Originally Posted by stever
I don't know your posting history, so I don't know if this is a long term habit of yours . . .
But I DO know that almost identical posts to this one by you, have been being posted since before we could wear capes ..... Constantly someone telling us we were within a very few months till DOOOOOOOOOM! Have fun with your prognosticating! I am going to go stand over there by Nethergoat now. . |
i'd rather be pleasantly suprised than continually let down, also my favorite color is blue. add that to my shrine in your closet.
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i think hard xp cap per day is a bit much, but if they did a xp/inf cap per mish like tickets cap per mish, then it would definitly even the playing field in AE a lot more
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Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
You guys really think an XP hard cap would fix AE. Really.
Weren't you around for the Ticket Cap "fix"? It was just a mild annoyance towards farmers and exploiters. Diminishing returns on repetition of an arc/mission, XP Cap per day, and all the derivatives of this "solution" simply would not work. It's called point-of-efficiency; and that's the only thing farmers are -really- good at finding. As I stated previously, the only thing that would "fix" the problems with AE is something along the lines of just stripping XP and rewards from non-developer-approved stories. And as we all may expect, this would simply mean that AE will turn into a ghost-town -- worse than now. Unless... The developers actually put some effort into picking out stories and promoting the good ones. Maybe even hire volunteer players with the sole purpose of playing arcs and rating them based on their standards. But this really only sounds good in theory... |
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Part of the problem is they took a sledge hammer where a scalpel would have worked. The allies that where causing the problems where allies flagged as AV's in most of the farm missions non AV's tend to die a lot easier so a middle ground would be scaling xp loss by if the ally is flagged Boss, LT AV etc and then by the #'s as well
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Originally Posted by Lohenien
The devs just simply lack the resources to make AE 'reasonable'. By reasonable I mean, the ability to prevent exploits preemptively. Such a thing would be obtained by having a group of players on the inside so to speak, that are good at making exploits. Those players find new exploits ASAP and the devs can patch things up.
Granted this would have only worked to their PR benefit during the design of AE and could have prevented alot of the after issue nerfs. It would fail now because reworking the system after the fact doesn't quit work as well due to a volatile player base and comes off as harsh nerfs. By hiring professional magic players, wizards of the coast was able to get a player's perspective on potentially exploitative cards during development. This works there because magic is always in development, here AE has been developed and released already. The best thing they could do is try and find some medium ground to stand on as opposed to simply nerfing things ASAP ( some things such as the MM exploit need to be an ASAP no middle ground decision however ) . For example the latest issue - excessive allies in missions. Simply nerfing all allies is a horrible idea, the devs know this and have stated as much. What middle ground can be found ? I wouldn't worry about catering to the whiny masses of players that want the fastest, easiest exploit possible - a role which alot of the people that come here and complain fit into perfectly. No, instead the devs need to decide what amount of allies with what functionality is actually 'acceptable and how to handle cases that go beyond that level. This is all well and good , but may not be possible code wise, or just not quick and easy. On' the players side of things, people need to realize that yes, certain things may get nailed in the cross fire for the time being but also that hot fixes are not intended as a permanent solution. The lack of foresight and the lack of malicious minded devs is something the team has a hard time compensating for. I rather doubt many of us here could outwit a group of tens of thousands of players so easily either. |
Pinnacle
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Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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No. It wouldn't. It would just be a very minor annoyance to people who want to farm. Minor being the keyword here.
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i think hard xp cap per day is a bit much, but if they did a xp/inf cap per mish like tickets cap per mish, then it would definitly even the playing field in AE a lot more
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well the ticket cap is really annoying, 1500 per map on a map that has enough baddies in it that could get double or triple that prior to the ticket cap severely cuts down on the tickets (takes 2 runs to get a gold roll, which is way too annoying to try to find the exact right size map with the exact number of enemies as to cap your tickets right at the end every time)|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
No. It wouldn't. It would just be a very minor annoyance to people who want to farm. Minor being the keyword here. |
putting an xp cap like ticket cap could limit people to 5-10 bars of xp per map, so even on the most efficient non-exploitative farm, the most you could get is 1 lvl (and even with an exploit you would hit the xp cap VERY early)
the only thing i see them having a hard time limiting would be inf since inf gain scales with lvl
Predatoric,
Your opinion does not reflect that of everyone else.
Personally, I consider Issue 13 to have been the worst issue, based on:
a) The amount of forum whining concerning an issue.
b) The amount of people quitting the game over an issue. (Or at least posting that they're quitting.)
c) Ongoing negative effects on the overall game experience resulting from an issue.
I don't have any numbers for:
d) The cost of developing/promoting an issue, compared to the profit from sales, new subscriptions and returning subscribers.
e) The amount of developer time spent on an issue, both before and after release.
Even then, considering all five criteria equally, I would still believe Issue 13 to be the worst.
Eastern Standard Time (Australia)
is 15 hours ahead of
Eastern Standard Time (North America)
which is 5 hours behind
Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)
Polarizing may be the best word for the Mission Architect. Never in any MMO, at least that I have ever played has there ever been an in-game subject more discussed amongst it's community. And the drama that has played before us is pretty remarkable. Heralded as the next great thing to happen for MMO's. The intent was to provide an endless source of new story arcs, but in the end became a powergaming tool. Devs nerfing, and players exploiting, with roleplayers and farmers in that grey area in between sniping at one another.
I do have to say though, you really have to give it to the players who found the holes in th MA to find inventive way to powergame; powerlevel, inf. farm, ticket farm, etc. We were given this shiny new toy to play with, possiblity being endless...and then we beat it, ***** it, discarded it, and left bleeding on the roadside. Ouch.
The issue that changed PvP I think was the worst. I'm not a hardcore PvPer, I've tried to. Having the second build availible helped, but some powersets just cannot PvP, that turned me off almost completely, I only PvP (and badly yes...) when I bored. Not saying PvP, isn't fun, it's just limited.
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...or you just reset the map once you hit the ticket cap. Same thing for XP.
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
well the ticket cap is really annoying, 1500 per map on a map that has enough baddies in it that could get double or triple that prior to the ticket cap severely cuts down on the tickets (takes 2 runs to get a gold roll, which is way too annoying to try to find the exact right size map with the exact number of enemies as to cap your tickets right at the end every time)
putting an xp cap like ticket cap could limit people to 5-10 bars of xp per map, so even on the most efficient non-exploitative farm, the most you could get is 1 lvl (and even with an exploit you would hit the xp cap VERY early)
the only thing i see them having a hard time limiting would be inf since inf gain scales with lvl
I might vote for Issue 4.
Most of the Architect's users may not have been using it for what it was intended for, but at least they were using it. The Arena has been under-utilized since it began.
More importantly, if the Architect was poorly implemented, that is even more true of PvP. If they had held off on implementing PvP until issue 6 instead of trying to jumpstart it early the way they did, the changes that eventually came in Issue 13 might not have been necessary.
Of course, hindsight is 20/20. In retrospect, there are quite a few Issues that could have been vastly improved on: the contact system in the Shadow Shard, the way ED was handled, Base rent and the prestige system, and so on.
lets see how many wrong statements can be made by you anti everything people
1. people get to 50 fast, get bored, leave
been here 5 yrs still going.... even had many a pl.... remember that still here part?
2. cant find a team nao.
Look harder. Make your own. Use the find member function.
the score so far
Anti everything: 0 a big fat one at that.....0= lose which makes you anti everything people a bunch of losers
people that play thier own way: 2
remember 2 is greater than 0 so I am greater than you
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poeple already do that with regular farms which can get just as much xp per min as an AE farm thats non-exploitative|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
...or you just reset the map once you hit the ticket cap. Same thing for XP. |
therefor its not really hurting anything to put a limit on how much you can earn per map if just resetting the map is all it takes (essentially EXACTLY what poeple do with regular farms, except they dont complete the normal farm, just reset at the end)
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ED I agreed it needed to happen I was not that upset over the nerf; what made most players mad about was the way Statesman handled the issue and tried to slip it in under the cover of night with out saying anything. Then to follow it up with the the global reduction and he mishandled that as well both where PR disasters not because of the nerfs but the way it happened and how Statesman handled the change.|
Originally Posted by EvilDeathBee
I might vote for Issue 4.
Most of the Architect's users may not have been using it for what it was intended for, but at least they were using it. The Arena has been under-utilized since it began. More importantly, if the Architect was poorly implemented, that is even more true of PvP. If they had held off on implementing PvP until issue 6 instead of trying to jumpstart it early the way they did, the changes that eventually came in Issue 13 might not have been necessary. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. In retrospect, there are quite a few Issues that could have been vastly improved on: the contact system in the Shadow Shard, the way ED was handled, Base rent and the prestige system, and so on. |
I have to agree I4 was badly done and still is badly broken the most boring pvp I have ever tried to play. So I do not even attempt to be a mediocre pvp player like I was in DAOC
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
As a player who has never participated in an AE farm, I have to say AE is one of the most fun and innovative additions to the game. Barring the lack of foresight concerning some obvious avenues for exploits, AE breathed new life into CoH for me. It's a great boon for those with a creative streak.
My daughter and I spent a good part of Saturday afternoon running AE missions together. We've both written our own as well. Great fun and well worth the effort.
Yeah, I pretty much disagree with the premise of this thread. 
The problem that comes up time and again is the lack of carrot and stick methodology.
You whack one thing, well...you whacked it because you didn't like it. What is it you would like to be happening? Reward that. The stick for bad stuff, but the carrot for rewarding those who are sticking to what you would like to happen.
The unfortunate thing is that when many exploits happened in the AE, there was little done to redirect, and focus on what was being done to reward correct usage. Add insult to injury, the anti-exploit fixes also impacted the correct usage of the AE, and allowed some pretty obvious farms to continue.
Okay, the farmer gets his arc banned, he makes/finds another. Meanwhile, when the fixes for farming/exploits/etc. hit the correct usage that needs a carrot, it's a necessary evil. The mixed messages and negative impact on both "good" and "bad" AE usage is enough to make people leave it alone.
At this point I'd hope the Devs took a more proactive role in guiding the AE, if they do indeed have a preferred usage of it, but not via banning/nerfing/etc, but by inserting better rewards into the "right" use of their product. This means better filtering that guides toward story stuff, better rewards for authors, and so on. Getting out the carrots.
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This is actually a really good approach.
Originally Posted by Seldom
The problem that comes up time and again is the lack of carrot and stick methodology.
You whack one thing, well...you whacked it because you didn't like it. What is it you would like to be happening? Reward that. The stick for bad stuff, but the carrot for rewarding those who are sticking to what you would like to happen.
The unfortunate thing is that when many exploits happened in the AE, there was little done to redirect, and focus on what was being done to reward correct usage. Add insult to injury, the anti-exploit fixes also impacted the correct usage of the AE, and allowed some pretty obvious farms to continue.
Okay, the farmer gets his arc banned, he makes/finds another. Meanwhile, when the fixes for farming/exploits/etc. hit the correct usage that needs a carrot, it's a necessary evil. The mixed messages and negative impact on both "good" and "bad" AE usage is enough to make people leave it alone.
At this point I'd hope the Devs took a more proactive role in guiding the AE, if they do indeed have a preferred usage of it, but not via banning/nerfing/etc, but by inserting better rewards into the "right" use of their product. This means better filtering that guides toward story stuff, better rewards for authors, and so on. Getting out the carrots.
Especially the part about authors. As of now, not many people have much incentive to make legit, fun story arcs. Taking myself as an example, I have tons of ideas for story arcs; but I have no incentive. I keep thinking I'm gonna go invest a few hours in making an arc...and then only 3 of my friends are gonna play it and give it 5 Stars cause they're my friends, and it'll be forgotten in 2 days. And me, and the majority of potential AE users are not the types to go and actively advertise their arcs.
Give me and people like me an incentive to make proper stories in AE. Make the Developers' Choice system more active and visible. Put in more rewards for authors! Things like badges, cool temporary powers, tickets, and maybe even things like Reward Merits!
Of course...this would all need to be looked at from an exploiters' point of view as well...
I like the AE system but they have devoted way too much time and effort into it. I joined this game just after i11. It was a long wait until i12. At that time we were promised something "big" which turned out to be AE. It is not something big; I do love using it but it is abused far too much. I really don't care for this game's canon so I make all my own stuff in my missions.
The funny thing is, i13 was a huge disappointment (Day Jobs...really?). Day Jobs are fine and all but we needed something more after waiting so long for a decent update. I14 took forever and a day to land. Was it worth it? I don't know. Based on it's use these days...I would say no. I cannot get anyone into doing these missions and when I do there is non-stop complaining (XP sucks, this is too hard etc etc).
So, what can the DEVS do in the future? How about maybe listen to the players a bit and poll them regarding what future content they would like to see. Just a thought. Since I joined CoX, the issue I liked most was i12. It gave us a new TF with all new maps and zone. The ITF isn't too time consuming and fun (this should be the model for any future TFs/SFs). VEATS are a lot of fun too. All in all, my fave issue since I have been here.
So, AE the worst release? Naw. Just poorly implemented and consumes too many resources.
Oh, my only other fear is GR and future issues will be as repetitive as most of what we have been given lately. Give us things to do. The ITF is a great example. New powers are cool but it's a new toy for the same old missions - a band-aid cure for the problem.
Anyway, I hope War Witch can breathe some new life into this game