Challenging the Conventional Wisdom on Steamy Mist/Arctic Fog/Shadow Fall
By
Angelwing,
Posted on: 2010-04-09 15:54 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I slot for both. My Thugs/Dark MM has:
Luck of the Gambler: Def/End/Rech, Def/End, and the Def/+Rech special
Impervium Armor: Res/End and Res
Karma: Knockback Protection
On another character I'd probably swap the Karma for an Impervium Armor: Res/Rech. For bonus points, this setup gives me extra HP/regen, plus extra recovery (and Psi defense if I swap the Karma for a third Impervium).
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
For me, IOs blew conventional wisdom out the window on these powers.
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I've never considered the conventional wisdom for these powers to be slotting for resistance at all. If anything, I've always considered the gains for slotting for resistance to be so minor that it's almost a foregone conclusion to ignore the resistance slotting altogether, in favor of end redux and defense.|
Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet
But the blanket statement which I've seen over and over again that slotting for resist is simply best on these powers is simply false, IMO. My advice would be to really look at how you these powers would play out on your build before following the conventional wisdom here - you can also frankenslot for resist/defense/endurance if you don't need set bonuses.
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The main reasoning is quite simple: the +def is to everything while the +res is only to a portion of some attacks (since you only resist the parts of an attack that you have specific resistance to).
There's also another reason: you can achieve 90% mitigation with defense for everyone but you can't do that for resistance. Even more reason: defense helps you avoid mez effects and debuffs but resistance doesn't.
15/20% +res(f/c/e) can seem like a lot, but, honestly, it's not all that much to get worked up about. F/C/E damage isn't so rare as to be likened to Toxic, but it's going to cover all bases. Enhancing for it isn't nearly as useful as enhancing for all situations, especially when you can provide greater stacking capability (because there's more +def available than +res) and greater overall utility.
Perhaps my impression about the conventional wisdom is based on reading lots of build guides, some of which predate IOs and the rush to the soft cap. Nonetheless, I continue to see some smart people repeating the "slot for resist" mantra quite recently, such as here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=196722&page=3
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Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet
Perhaps my impression about the conventional wisdom is based on reading lots of build guides, some of which predate IOs and the rush to the soft cap. Nonetheless, I continue to see some smart people repeating the "slot for resist" mantra quite recently, such as here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=196722&page=3 |
I can't say that I read every Storm/Dark/Cold guide there is. However, I wrote a guide for Storm Summoning myself and I recommended slotting Steamy Mist for +def. Plus I disagree with some other aspects in Silas Storm guide. Still kudos to him for the effort of writing such a big guide. As far as I can see at a glance it's largely ok (for me).
(This reminds me that I need to update my guide in the near future.
)
Slot for both if you want, but I prefer to maximize defense and procs in the power. Then again I like defense a lot on my stormies and quite a bit on my colds.
On a cold where endurance is less of a premium I do:
8pts kb protection
3% def IO
lotg +rech
lotg def/end
lotg def/end/rech
So on my cold corr that works out to be:
8.78% def (m,r, aoe)
7.5% rech
8pts kb
1.5% recovery
10% regen
12hp
(26.5% end reduction)
On storm where I want a bit more end redux I flip the def/end and def/end/rech for 2 cytos
so:
8.74% def (all)
7.5% rech
8pts kb
1.5% recov
66.6% end reduction
Let's phrase this another way.
"Manuevers is better than Thermal Shield."
That's basically the essence of this argument. I can't say I entirely agree with it.
Slot either or both. Which one is better is highly circumstantial and depends on how much additional defense and -ToHit the team has. Exotic attacks are more rare. But, so is exotic resistance compared to positional defense.
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In the case of Steamy Mist you may be best off slotting for resists simply because Storm has Hurricane which can put you over the softcap on it's own against even cons. Dark gets you respectable numbers of -to hit also. Cold.... not so much.|
Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet
But the blanket statement which I've seen over and over again that slotting for resist is simply best on these powers is simply false, IMO. My advice would be to really look at how you these powers would play out on your build before following the conventional wisdom here - you can also frankenslot for resist/defense/endurance if you don't need set bonuses.
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Set bonuses can also garner you quite a bit of defense but resistance set bonuses are few and far between.
That said I always slot powers of this type with
1 Lotg +7.5
2 Cytos
2 Ribos
1 Steadfast Res/def
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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I disagree. Hurricane doesn't help against ranged attacks. Instead Hurricane slightly increases the likelihood of getting attacked with ranged attacks. Even if Steamy Mist gave +res to S/L/F/C/E/N instead of giving it only to F/C/E it would be better to slot it for defense in many cases.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
In the case of Steamy Mist you may be best off slotting for resists simply because Storm has Hurricane which can put you over the softcap on it's own against even cons.
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t MaxLongstreet, as I said in the Champion thread, a very good point and I'm glad you pointed it out.
I've since gone back and updated my Storm, Cold and Dark guides with a little more detail.
That said, for Steamy Mist/Arctic Fog, the resistance is much less important than on Shadowfall.
t Myriad, I appreciate the kudos 
If you disagree with what I've written it'd be great if you could say specifically what in the thread, all feedback is appreciated.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Just keep in mind slotting for Defense on a Controller only nets you around 1.86 extra defense. You get the base 3.75 whether you slot or not. I have a hard time calling that 1.86 especially crucial, unless you've got a strong defense build. It's unlikely to matter much to your team. The same for the extra 7.5% resistance you could get to Cold, Energy, and Fire. You could easily go either way.
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I think what you mean is "Hurricane doesn't help with attacks from outside its radius." It definitely does effect "ranged attacks."
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Originally Posted by Myriad
I disagree. Hurricane doesn't help against ranged attacks.
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Yep, that's what I meant.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think what you mean is "Hurricane doesn't help with attacks from outside its radius." It definitely does effect "ranged attacks."
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Steamy Mist and a stealth IO or Super Speed means that the mobs don't get a ranged attack off before their to hit is debuffed. It's all in play style choice. That said I still use the same slotting of:|
Originally Posted by Myriad
I disagree. Hurricane doesn't help against ranged attacks. Instead Hurricane slightly increases the likelihood of getting attacked with ranged attacks. Even if Steamy Mist gave +res to S/L/F/C/E/N instead of giving it only to F/C/E it would be better to slot it for defense in many cases.
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1 Lotg +7.5
2 Cytos
2 Ribos
1 Steadfast Res/def
To maximize both aspects especially since it grants both that defense and those resists to team members in the area of effect.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Yes, that's the best of both worlds. And if I weren't slotting for other things like +regen and +hp as well, I might slot it the same.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
That said I still use the same slotting of:
1 Lotg +7.5 2 Cytos 2 Ribos 1 Steadfast Res/def To maximize both aspects especially since it grants both that defense and those resists to team members in the area of effect. |
I think the whole of the build plus the intentions needs to be taken into account before deciding what's right and what's wrong. If somebody accepts the resist biased advice then one can assume that was the right advice. At the end of the day it's advice, take it or leave it.
If I jump on different defenders then I might expect them to have easier times of different task forces or enemies. How much easier is determined by the build. You could build to treat all enemies the same or build to be really good versus something in PvP or whatever. Its the intent of the person seeking advice that matters and some people might get an idea of that from the rest of the build.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
As with so many things, the conventional wisdom evolves when underlying technical changes are implemented. In this case, the change is IOs and set bonuses that provide defense.
A little bit of defense is mostly useless. But once you start getting a decent amount, say 30-35%, it's much more worthwhile. And if you can softcap, it's worth a whole lot.
So, back when the only place you could get defense was from Steamy Mist, Combat Jumping, Hover and Maneuvers, it didn't add up to much. But now that you can get decent amounts of ranged and S/L defense from slotting IOs in your powers, it completely changes the picture.
On Storm defenders and /Dark corruptors I have built for ranged defense, nearing the softcap on both. Given that level of defense, the to-hit debuffs from Hurricane and Darkest Night, and the ability of these ATs to keep enemies at range (Hurricane and Tar Patch), increasing ranged defense by a few percent with Steamy Mist or Shadowfall suddenly makes a whole lot more sense.
If you are using IOs to come close to softcapping your Defense, then certainly that's the best plan. However, for the general or low level build, you have the potential to simplify certain encounters due to the very specific resist. Since these are support powers, and not merely personal defense, then you can make the argument that your power will help support the team for certain enemies, while other support ATs may be able to provide protection for you where your own defense does not apply.
It can also be thought of as higher protection for ranged attacks, since those tend to be of non-physical damage types more often than melee attacks.
I agree that the best course of action is to slot for both. However, I know that on my Dark Miasma characters, being able to trivialize the Negative damage of Circle of Thorns helps take a lot of the sting out of them. If I could just do the same to their Fire it would be perfect.
I've never slotted those powers for resists. I've almost always used them to further layer defense.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I haven't seen a single resistance-socketing comment in those powers since Issue 9.
I've usually gone 2 Def/End IOs and one Def IO + 2 Res/End IOs and one Res IO.
That gets me about +52% Def and Res (+58% or so being the ED cap), and +90% End Reduction. You can even squeeze a couple of cheekey set bonuses in there, but nothing major, maybe the +recovery from Impervium Armour and +Regen from LotG.
The resists are quite nice as they often cover holes of other characters. ShadowFall provides Psi, nice for Invulnerables and a few other melee types. Steamy Mist is a perfect fit for any Dark Armour allies, especially ones who run Tough.
Def-based Tanks/Brutes are so common these days (helloooooooo shields) that slotting for Def would probably be more beneficial.
I slot for Def since it helps me get closer to being softcapped to ranged, and I can't say that's a bad thing.
japan
I usually slot them for resist because the defense is worthless, and they fill part of the hole left by the epic pool shields that generally only cover smashing/lethal. I don't slot them for *either* until I'm really high level and have slots to spare, though.
Unslotted, having a bunch of them stacked against someone using one of the relevant damage types is glorious. n.n Against generic folks where only the defense applies, even three of them stacked is unnoticeable. This is from pressure cooker teams; I think their official build guide said to slot for defense though.
I slot for resist simply because it gives the bigger numbers and covers damage types that are sometimes holes in other characters' personal shields (or that the patron/app shields don't cover).
I'll also slot for defense if I plan to combine it with other sources of +def, but won't bother if I'm using it in isolation.
In general, the build and slotting advice given by the veterans of these boards is pretty great. However, I've noticed one place where the advice that's given over and over again by almost everyone is flat wrong, at least a decent percentage of the time.
It's in slotting for SM/AF/SF - the mantra here is that the resist numbers are higher, so slot for resist instead of defense. For many builds/archtypes, I just don't get this.
Let's take a look at the numbers. For Controllers and Corruptors, these powers have a base 3.75% defense and 15% Resistance to Fire/Cold/Energy. Enhancements of course buff these in the same 1:4 ratio as the starting bonus, meaning for instance, that 3 IOs increases defense 2.2% and Resist 8.8%. For Defenders it's also 1:4 at 5% defense/20 % resist starting, and 2.9% or 11.7% increase with 3 IOs.
Balancing the 4 times higher resist bonuses are two things: 1) the resist bonuses are only to fire/cold/energy whereas the defense is universal, and 2) for most classes, particularly those that use the powers (Corruptors/Controllers/Defenders), defense is more useful than resist.
The first point is quite important to me - I have a bias towards powers that make me better overall, rather than better against certain things and no better against others. And the second point is too - I've never had a Controller that is working on Resist to any extent, while I often have one that is working on Defense. Let's say just for example I have a Controller that is at 20% universal defense after applying the first 3.75% of the Steamy Mist power and all my other defensive powers and set bonuses (I understand it's unlikely to break down exactly like this, but this gives a simple math example). Increasing my defense another 2.2% by slotting one of these powers with defense means that I'm reducing damage taken from an average of about 30 per attack (hypothetical 100 damage, 50% to hit, -20% for defense) to 27.8. This is a reduction of 7.3% in all damage.
If I'd slotted for resist, where as a Controller I'd probably have no other resistance other than this particular power attack that would have done 100 points of damage would do 85 because of the unslotted 15% effect, would now do 76.2 points of damage applying the further 8.8%. This effectively reduces the damage 10.4%.
Anyhow, what started out as a 1:4 ratio in mitigation has gotten fairly close (7.3% vs. 10.4%) because of how defense works when you start to build it up, which is fairly likely on a Controller - I know that on my Controllers I go for some defense bonuses.
And of course that 10.4% is only only some of the game's damage types, meaning it's far less reliable than the defense.
Now I'm not saying that it's always right to slot for defense - you may have teammates, such as Resist tanks, where the resist will be very valuable, or you may have resist set bonuses, or no defense bonuses at all, and you may have a case for slotting resist.
But the blanket statement which I've seen over and over again that slotting for resist is simply best on these powers is simply false, IMO. My advice would be to really look at how you these powers would play out on your build before following the conventional wisdom here - you can also frankenslot for resist/defense/endurance if you don't need set bonuses.