Reduce the nerf on energy transfer.
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2010-04-05 20:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Ya know, back when ET was overpowered with the 1 sec animation no one mentioned the -health either. It wasn't until the nerf came that people suddenly remembered this -health that applied when the power hit. |
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I haven't read the thread, but as in any EM discussion I know nobody has mentioned the impact ET's -health has on survivability ; roughly -16hp/s on an IOed out chain for maximum DPS, which is about ~160% regen for a brute, or almost the regen you have from base regen + fully slotted Health.
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Now that the nerf is here to stay, and has been, some posters bring this up. From the various EM nerf threads I vaguely remember either Castle or a numbers type poster stating that ET still breaks the rules even with the new animation and it's probably due to the self damage.
To be honest, if the self damage is impacting your survivability then you need to do one of two things:
1. stop button smashing like a buffoon
2. reduce your difficulty
My EM/ELA Brute hardly had survivability problems when the cast time was 1 sec, and he certainly does not have survivability issues with the longer animation.
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I think the reason that people mention the -hp NOW is that they don't feel it's worth it any more. Since that is a totally subjective thing and can't really be proven one way or the other (how it feels I mean, not how it works/the numbers) I think it would behoove folks to take a look back AT the real numbers everyone is saying makes EM still OK. |
Originally Posted by Clouded
Ya know, back when ET was overpowered with the 1 sec animation no one mentioned the -health either. It wasn't until the nerf came that people suddenly remembered this -health that applied when the power hit.
Now that the nerf is here to stay, and has been, some posters bring this up. From the various EM nerf threads I vaguely remember either Castle or a numbers type poster stating that ET still breaks the rules even with the new animation and it's probably due to the self damage. To be honest, if the self damage is impacting your survivability then you need to do one of two things: 1. stop button smashing like a buffoon 2. reduce your difficulty My EM/ELA Brute hardly had survivability problems when the cast time was 1 sec, and he certainly does not have survivability issues with the longer animation. |
Take a look at BillZ's "The results are in.." and "The results are in 2..." threads in the scrapper forum. They show that EM is NOT the single target king anymore - in a baseline case (L50 IO's, no hasten) it is outperformed by fire melee on a brute (the results 2 thread shows this). On the high recharge build it EM is outshined by a number of sets and only outperforms sets like claws and warmace by 1-2 DPS.
So I can see why folks are not happy with the new set - you have a set with crappy AE, secondary effects that are questionable for a melee character due to the 'high speed run while stunned' effect, and in order to do it's 'only slightly better than other sets' single target damage you have to take damage yourself.
So, while I accept that Castle and Co. feel that ET was too far out of line (and I do tend to agree with them on that) the set needs something more to keep something other than a concept set. Compare EM to super strength - SS is another set that has almost all single target damage and only 1 AE - footstomp. Now, folks are still happy with the set for the following reasons:
1. If you can cope with the crash, rage is a nice effect - a permanent +20% to hit and +80% damage boost
2. The secondary effects on the attacks are much more regular and don't cause problems for a melee character. Knock down in most attacks + a mag3 hold in KO blow makes for nice melee control
3. Footstomp is insanely good.
Now, we can't easily add 1 and 2 to EM but we can look into equalizing the gap between WH and footstomp. If you just increased WH damage to footstomp levels that would be awesome - you could even increase the radius to 10' or 15' (isntead of the sad 8' that it currently has) without taking much away from footstomp as footstomp would do more damage due to the 80% damage boost it gets from rage. Since both FSC and spin do more damage than foostomp, EM still wouldn't outshine those sets in AE but it would be a lot closer, which would make up for the slim lead it has in single target DPS (or the non-existant lead it has over fire melee).
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
I never noticed the -health on my EM/SR Stalker 
though I have killed myself a few times before which is always funny.
Also, I forget which Dev stated it, but they already said they wouldn't buff WH to compensate for ET's change...but who knows what the future may hold.
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LOL, if we're going to constantly tout EM's single target strength to support the nerf, it's completely fair and relevant to bring up the effect said single target attack string has on survivability when questioning it.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Ya know, back when ET was overpowered with the 1 sec animation no one mentioned the -health either. It wasn't until the nerf came that people suddenly remembered this -health that applied when the power hit.
Now that the nerf is here to stay, and has been, some posters bring this up. From the various EM nerf threads I vaguely remember either Castle or a numbers type poster stating that ET still breaks the rules even with the new animation and it's probably due to the self damage. To be honest, if the self damage is impacting your survivability then you need to do one of two things: 1. stop button smashing like a buffoon 2. reduce your difficulty My EM/ELA Brute hardly had survivability problems when the cast time was 1 sec, and he certainly does not have survivability issues with the longer animation. |
But you're still against the nerf right?...
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So you didn't notice it except for the times it killed you?... lol.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I never noticed the -health on my EM/SR Stalker
though I have killed myself a few times before which is always funny.Also, I forget which Dev stated it, but they already said they wouldn't buff WH to compensate for ET's change...but who knows what the future may hold. |
I hope the future holds devs who can admit they overnerfed the set and decide to buff it, similar to what they did with DM.
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3. pick another primary, doing more DPS while also having more survivability|
To be honest, if the self damage is impacting your survivability then you need to do one of two things: 1. stop button smashing like a buffoon 2. reduce your difficulty |
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I don't think you understand how math works, nor words for that matter. I'll answer for the sake of clarifying my argument to anyone who might be reading rather than trying to get to you.
Using ET *at all* reduces your survivability. Using the best EM DPS chain involves using ET a lot.
The point isn't whether it is possible to play an EM toon while using the top DPS chain and not dying. It is possible. It has nothing to do with my argument.
The point is, other primaries can enjoy similar or higher DPS while also not having to suffer from the -HP, leading to them being more survivable. That survivability can translate to taking on bigger odds. That survivability can translate to using the best DPS chain (for people who'd refrain from "button smashing" and use weaker chains instead). That survivability can also translate to nothing if you stick to fighting stuff so easy you wouldn't see nor need the difference, in which case you can also make the argument all blasters are overpowered if you play on -1/x1 for your whole career...
Or, to try it in numbers, my point is EM does x DPS while having m-n (n directly increasing as x does) survivability, other primaries do x+y (y >= 0) DPS while having m survivability.
To be honest, if you think saying that you hardly had survivability problems before the nerf supports your position, at a time where the maximum reputation was equivalent to what +3/x1 is now, you're really in no position to discuss performance. A defender can take on +3/x1 while using brawl as his sole attack power and hardly have survivability problems.
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well yes, when you're at full health, it's hardly noticeable, then it turns into a "oops" |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
So you didn't notice it except for the times it killed you?... lol.
I hope the future holds devs who can admit they overnerfed the set and decide to buff it, similar to what they did with DM. |
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I didn't suggest otherwise. |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
LOL, if we're going to constantly tout EM's single target strength to support the nerf, it's completely fair and relevant to bring up the effect said single target attack string has on survivability when questioning it.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
But you're still against the nerf right?...
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I complained, tested and gave feedback on the nerf. I was critical about the feel of the set being reduced to a slow crawl from it's former self. I fought the good fight until I realized no more changes were coming. I then respeced my EM/ELA Brute once the changes were live and I adapted a bit.
I've always disliked the change to ET but I understand it. This allows me to move on and not complain about it in the future.
You like to be critical of any nerf ever, I get it.
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You were trying to throw out the self damage as being insignifcant, I called ********, lol.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I didn't suggest otherwise.
It's creepy that you feel the need to respond to my posts about EM. Let me set this straight for you one last time so you can stop your childish retorts. I complained, tested and gave feedback on the nerf. I was critical about the feel of the set being reduced to a slow crawl from it's former self. I fought the good fight until I realized no more changes were coming. I then respeced my EM/ELA Brute once the changes were live and I adapted a bit. I've always disliked the change to ET but I understand it. This allows me to move on and not complain about it in the future. You like to be critical of any nerf ever, I get it. |
Should I feel it's 'creepy' that you responded to my post? I hope not, I find your posts entertaining, like this one...
"To be honest, if the self damage is impacting your survivability then you need to do one of two things:
1. stop button smashing like a buffoon
2. reduce your difficulty"
Just because ni correctly pointed out a significant negative to the power in question, doesn't mean he 'smashes buttons like a buffoon' nor does it mean he is a poor player. He is simply pointing out that when those who defend EM as a set constantly tout the fact it's near the top in single target sustained damage, we should also take into account it applies what amounts to a nasty regen debuff, that competing sets do not.
Having said that, this is a thread about calling on the devs to reduce the nerf on energy transfer. I'm sorry if you were shocked to see posts inside supporting this, but what were you expecting exactly, brownie recipes? And for someone who has supposedly 'moved on', you sure seem to appear in these em threads a lot, lol. If you really want to move on, then please do. The rest of us will continue to lobby for em to get some love.
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Um, no I didn't. I just made an observation about the self damage and the sudden resurgence in it's request to be removed. Perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to jump on my posts with such ignorance. |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
You were trying to throw out the self damage as being insignifcant, I called ********, lol.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Just because ni correctly pointed out a significant negative to the power in question, doesn't mean he 'smashes buttons like a buffoon' nor does it mean he is a poor player. He is simply pointing out that when those who defend EM as a set constantly tout the fact it's near the top in single target sustained damage, we should also take into account it applies what amounts to a nasty regen debuff, that competing sets do not.
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I have no issues with removing the self-damage but I fear it will cause a reduction to base damage. If this was a perfect would then the self-damage would be removed without penalty but I'm a realist and I have a sneaky suspicion that such a change would not happen.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Having said that, this is a thread about calling on the devs to reduce the nerf on energy transfer. I'm sorry if you were shocked to see posts inside supporting this, but what were you expecting exactly, brownie recipes? And for someone who has supposedly 'moved on', you sure seem to appear in these em threads a lot, lol. If you really want to move on, then please do. The rest of us will continue to lobby for em to get some love.
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I would like ET to have a much shorter animation time to return some of the fast paced feel to the set it has lost with the changes to ET and Barrage (it was nice to see the damage upped on Barrage, but so was the end usage and recharge).
I would reduce the animation to 1.5 - 2 seconds, reduce the BI and remove the self-damage. I'm not sure exactly how low the BI would need to be reduced but I'm sure it's more than most posters realize. That's pretty much it. The only other change would be to increase the radius on WH.
The nerf isn't going to be reduced.
The AOE capability should be BUFFED.
Also the -damage was laughable, is laughable, and always will be laughable.
This was before SOs also.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Assuming the devs made it "follow the rules," dropping the self damage alone would cause ET to go from 4.56 scale (202.87dmg on a Tank) to 3.56 scale (158.38dmg on a Tank). In addition, the end cost would go from 10.19 to 18.51. Basically, it would become a Total Focus clone with a different animation.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I would reduce the animation to 1.5 - 2 seconds, reduce the BI and remove the self-damage. I'm not sure exactly how low the BI would need to be reduced but I'm sure it's more than most posters realize.
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If they weren't adverse to changing the animation (which BABs has previously posted he is hesitant to do) and wanted it to keep the same DPA (~75 before AT), it would drop the cast time from 2.67 to ~2.08.
Note: Just answering the hypothetical "what ifs," not expressing my opinion on whether should be done.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Also the -damage was laughable, is laughable, and always will be laughable.
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Another way to put it, if you used ET three times in one fight then had to use a Respite, you just healed back the damage inflicted from ET. (For a Tanker. The self damage didn't deal a standard percent of the using AT's base hp, last time I checked.)
Can it be overcome? Sure, absolutely. As mentioned above, respites, heals, regen buffs, etc all can circumvent it - but I wouldn't say it's trivial.
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It's not ignorant to refute your claim that the self damage effect of a power is insignificant if only you don't 'mash buttons like a buffon', lol. The fact is, the effect of the self damage is a negative factor that is often ignored when some speak about the one thing the set has going for it, single target dps. Perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to imply other posters are 'buffoons' or 'ignorant', and accept that other people have different points of view than you do.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Um, no I didn't. I just made an observation about the self damage and the sudden resurgence in it's request to be removed. Perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to jump on my posts with such ignorance.
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Like I said before, the self damage is hardly an issue to survivability now since ET is not used like it was in the past in DPS chains. I tend to use ET as an opener to one shot or a closer, but that's my playstyle. If someone else is using the power whenever it has recharged, then they should build their character to compensate for the self-damage. That's seems logical to me. I have no issues with removing the self-damage but I fear it will cause a reduction to base damage. If this was a perfect would then the self-damage would be removed without penalty but I'm a realist and I have a sneaky suspicion that such a change would not happen. |
Going further, even with your 'If someone else is using the power whenever it has recharged, then they should build their character to compensate for the self-damage.', the fact that self damage is there and acts as a regen debuff is a huge negative factor that competing sets do not have going against it. So where is em's advantage? That's the problem, it just doesn't have one. That's why the set is subpar and that's why the set needs some work.
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| Just like everyone else here, I too have the privilege to post my thoughts and opinions on the nerf to EM and the subsequent QQing done since the changes. Just because a call is made to the devs to reduce the nerf, doesn't mean it's justified by any stretch of the imagination. |
But since we're debating things, don't you find it to be hypocritical to complain/QQ about complaining/QQing? Just as you have the right to argue changes are not justified, we have the right to argue for changes we feel are justified.
And as far as the devs opinion is concerned, clearly the past has shown they do listen to their customers, and they do change their minds, so if players feel changes need to be made, they should voice their opinions. That's not QQing, that's called posting your opinion as a paying customer.
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I would like ET to have a much shorter animation time to return some of the fast paced feel to the set it has lost with the changes to ET and Barrage (it was nice to see the damage upped on Barrage, but so was the end usage and recharge). I would reduce the animation to 1.5 - 2 seconds, reduce the BI and remove the self-damage. I'm not sure exactly how low the BI would need to be reduced but I'm sure it's more than most posters realize. That's pretty much it. The only other change would be to increase the radius on WH. |
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Claiming the self damage affects survivability with the 2.67s when survivability was never an issue with the 1s animation is silly to say the least. |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
It's not ignorant to refute your claim that the self damage effect of a power is insignificant if only you don't 'mash buttons like a buffon', lol. The fact is, the effect of the self damage is a negative factor that is often ignored when some speak about the one thing the set has going for it, single target dps. Perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to imply other posters are 'buffoons' or 'ignorant', and accept that other people have different points of view than you do.
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Why wasn't it an issue when ET was used in the DPS chain? Wait, I know...because no one wanted to bring up the fact ET was broken.
I don't like the self damage but it doesn't impact my survivability at all unless I'm playing like a buffoon.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
And here you are trying to claim the self damage is insignificant, this time by saying it's not used in dps chains like it was in the past. The fact is, to achieve top level single target dps damage, et is needed in the chain. So if we all played the set like you do, then em is not a top tier single target set anymore, while still being a bottom-feeder in aoe ability.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Going further, even with your 'If someone else is using the power whenever it has recharged, then they should build their character to compensate for the self-damage.', the fact that self damage is there and acts as a regen debuff is a huge negative factor that competing sets do not have going against it. So where is em's advantage? That's the problem, it just doesn't have one. That's why the set is subpar and that's why the set needs some work.
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| Assuming the devs made it "follow the rules," dropping the self damage alone would cause ET to go from 4.56 scale (202.87dmg on a Tank) to 3.56 scale (158.38dmg on a Tank). In addition, the end cost would go from 10.19 to 18.51. |
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Where did I say you don't have the right to post your thoughts? I simply said that it's odd for someone who has claimed they have moved on from this debate to continually show up for said debate, and debate, lol.
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EM right now is ok and I play it on my Tank and Brute when I get the urge but I miss the fast paced feel of the set.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
But since we're debating things, don't you find it to be hypocritical to complain/QQ about complaining/QQing? Just as you have the right to argue changes are not justified, we have the right to argue for changes we feel are justified.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
And as far as the devs opinion is concerned, clearly the past has shown they do listen to their customers, and they do change their minds, so if players feel changes need to be made, they should voice their opinions. That's not QQing, that's called posting your opinion as a paying customer.
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I too miss the fast pace feel of the old energy set. That, more than anything else, has made me stop playing my energy characters. I acknowledge that energy was overpowered in PvP and that it was the better than other stalker sets simply because nearly all of the primaries were reworked to focus on single target damage. However, now that there is the capability to separate PvE and PvP why not change it back? I don't think Energy was ever "overpowered" as far as tanks and brutes go in PvE. In fact, it was and still lags behind many of the other primaries due to its dismal AOE capability. I think the change was all the more brutal since such a small percentage of people actually PvP in this game.
I'm not gonna hold my breath for anything to be done with energy. Once a set gets a visit from the "great idea" fairies it's rarely changed back, especially when they believe the changes to be a success.
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - George Orwell
Whew. Reading this thread has helped me understand that I am not an odd duck for enjoying my Energy Melee/Willpower Brute.
I solo.
I kept hearing about how awful EM is, and yet, when I go redside now I always reach for either, depending on my mood, this Brute or for my Mind/Electric Dom..or is is Mind/Electric ? Never can recall which comes first.
In the beginning she felt subpar. I felt like I was boxing with pink pillows tied to my hands...but I gained levels, and with those levels came more slots and more powers, and I got Air Sup, and, and, I am a happy camper now 
Thanks to everyone who put out in the open the fact that Energy Melee is a good Soloing Brute.
Grin. In a way it is balance...Shields has teaming powers, us soloists have Energy Melee
That's my story, and I am sticking to it
Anyway, thanks again for allowing me to feel good about liking my toon
Lisa-And hmmm...I get my vet reward boxing attire in a few days. I know a certain pink haired toon who is going to get some new clothes
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
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First of all, nobody has claimed the self damage didn't negatively impact survivability before the nerf. It did.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Claiming the self damage affects survivability with the 2.67s when survivability was never an issue with the 1s animation is silly to say the least.
Why wasn't it an issue when ET was used in the DPS chain? Wait, I know...because no one wanted to bring up the fact ET was broken. I don't like the self damage but it doesn't impact my survivability at all unless I'm playing like a buffoon. |
Secondly, the reason it wasn't an issue was because the self damage was in exchange for the powers unusually high damage and fast animation.
My problem with the devs magical balance equation is that it doesn't seem to take into account all of the variables, such as a sets aoe capabilities and secondary abilities. The end result is a set that has it's single target abilities nerfed down to the level of competing sets while leaving its aoe abilities still lagging behind.
That is why it is no suprise that solo players don't mind the set and don't see any problem, and team players feel the set is a joke.
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| I don't use my EM Brute for AV soloing any longer so I'm not concerned about the DPS chain for EM. However, please provide your DPS chain and be sure to note the various levels of recharge. |
But again, my point regarding single target dps, which is the one strength the set still has, is dependent on et being in the attack chain in order to compete with other top single target sets. It requires similar amounts of recharge as other sets require.
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| As stated previously, ET's BI would be reduced and end usage increased if the self damage was removed: |
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Just because I accept the nerf and moved on doesn't mean I still cannot debate the topic. I merely went from one side of the fence to the other. You do know there is more than one side to a debate right? EM right now is ok and I play it on my Tank and Brute when I get the urge but I miss the fast paced feel of the set. |
Also, you seem to be playing both sides of the fence - sometimes you say you hated the nerf, then you accepted it, then you're ok with it, then you say you want buffs which would indicate you're still not ok with the overall nerf. Tough to keep track, lol.
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| Did you ever think that the QQing I refer to is done by other posters and not you? I'm not sure why you have such personal attachment to EM. Also, observational statement is not the same thing as complaining. |
And I'm not sure why you need to make this a 'personal' matter. I simply think em is broken and I'd like to see it fixed.
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| Of course, but making a solid post about facts and thoughts aren't what I was referring to. I'm referring to the posters that complain without much substance to their post. There is a difference. |
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Of course it did, but it was ignored because no one wanted ET nerfed. Now that ET is nerfed the self damage is used as an argument against the nerf when in fact removing the self damage would cause another nerf. |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
First of all, nobody has claimed the self damage didn't negatively impact survivability before the nerf. It did.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Secondly, the reason it wasn't an issue was because the self damage was in exchange for the powers unusually high damage and fast animation.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
My problem with the devs magical balance equation is that it doesn't seem to take into account all of the variables, such as a sets aoe capabilities and secondary abilities. The end result is a set that has it's single target abilities nerfed down to the level of competing sets while leaving its aoe abilities still lagging behind.
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Now, I know you are going to say that EM's stuns are not reliable or good mitigation but I assure you that having the ability to stun a boss and 2 other critters at once is indeed, good mitigation. Stun is a fantastic power that nearly ever EM user skips because it does zero damage but it used properly Stun can provide excellent mitigation when stacked when Barrage, EP, BoneSmasher, TF, WH and ET.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
That is why it is no suprise that solo players don't mind the set and don't see any problem, and team players feel the set is a joke.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I guess that's the difference between our arguments. I'm arguing for overall set balances and that em is underpowered vs. competing sets overall, and you're arguing personal preferences.
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The only changes to EM I would like involve re-instituting the fast pace feel of the set. The low AoE damage really isn't a concern. I just pair it with a secondary or primary that provide some AoE Damage (ELA, DA, SD, etc).
I don't think all sets should be the same.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
But again, my point regarding single target dps, which is the one strength the set still has, is dependent on et being in the attack chain in order to compete with other top single target sets. It requires similar amounts of recharge as other sets require.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Using the magical 'balance' equation that doesn't take into account aoe capabilities or secondary effects.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Also, you seem to be playing both sides of the fence - sometimes you say you hated the nerf, then you accepted it, then you're ok with it, then you say you want buffs which would indicate you're still not ok with the overall nerf. Tough to keep track, lol.
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Is buffing WH and removing the self-damage from ET your only wants for this set or did you have something else in mind?
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Energy Transfer, Gloom, Bonesmasher, Total Focus, repeat
| I would love to see the attack chain. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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That's really the best DPS chain for EM? Ew.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Energy Transfer, Gloom, Bonesmasher, Total Focus, repeat
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Precisely... ew.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
That's really the best DPS chain for EM? Ew.
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Be well, people of CoH.
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What about for tankers, who don't access to gloom?
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Energy Transfer, Gloom, Bonesmasher, Total Focus, repeat
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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You still get a little bit of the death poke in the new animation. Personally I think the current animation is a better reflection on the power of the attack. Building up power and then thrusting at the enemy for loads of damage is excellent in my book.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I don't mind the mechanics changes of Energy Transfer, but I miss the DETHPOKE animation
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As for the OP, I think the damage that the attack inflicts on the character is perfectly fine considering you can just about drop any Boss, or Lieutenant with a BU+TF and the ET to finish them up combo.
The only thing I miss is the stacking effect that TF used to have back in the day. There was nothing more rewarding that using ET to destroy 10 enemies and then you die in the process. That was fun.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
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Dunno. I mock tank damage output too much to think about it too hard. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
What about for tankers, who don't access to gloom?
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Be well, people of CoH.
I haven't read the thread, but as in any EM discussion I know nobody has mentioned the impact ET's -health has on survivability ; roughly -16hp/s on an IOed out chain for maximum DPS, which is about ~160% regen for a brute, or almost the regen you have from base regen + fully slotted Health.