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Perhaps spreading lies about the size of the dev team is why the EU boards were shut down. |
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I was working from memory I admit but I seem to recall that number being announced on the EU forums not long before their demise.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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I was hoping that someone would mention Brooks' Law.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I refer you to Brooks' Law.
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That being said, something about the math doesn't work for me, either, but only sort of doesn't work. It's not 80 developers, the last count we had was somewhere around 50, but still, that's about the size of the team that made City of Villains: 9 zones, 40 levels of content, and at least 9 factions that I can count off-hand. This time around we're getting 4 zones, 20 levels of content, and, what? 4? 5? new factions?
To be fair, though, they've already made it clear that those 4 zones are better-made than any zones we've seen yet; not the same dozen buildings dropped over and over again, but completely designed city. And in addition to 20 levels of Praetorian content, there are 30 levels of we don't yet know how many morality missions. And one last thing to keep in mind: adding complexity to an already-complex system is not linear in difficulty, it's exponential.
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At the same time they've been working on I17 (Ultra mode, Doppleganger technology, some arcs), and I19 (Incarnate system), so I'm willing to cut them some slack.
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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
That being said, something about the math doesn't work for me, either, but only sort of doesn't work. It's not 80 developers, the last count we had was somewhere around 50, but still, that's about the size of the team that made City of Villains: 9 zones, 40 levels of content, and at least 9 factions that I can count off-hand. This time around we're getting 4 zones, 20 levels of content, and, what? 4? 5? new factions?
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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Yeah, it's not obvious but a bunch of the features added over the last few issues have been ones which have needed some pretty extensive under the hood tinkering. The Mission Architect itself was an absolutely massive change - they didn't just give us access to development tools, they totally revamped how they make content themselves. Originally it was just a spreadsheet for god's sake.
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
At the same time they've been working on I17 (Ultra mode, Doppleganger technology, some arcs), and I19 (Incarnate system), so I'm willing to cut them some slack.
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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
I was hoping that someone would mention Brooks' Law.
That being said, something about the math doesn't work for me, either, but only sort of doesn't work. It's not 80 developers, the last count we had was somewhere around 50, but still, that's about the size of the team that made City of Villains: 9 zones, 40 levels of content, and at least 9 factions that I can count off-hand. This time around we're getting 4 zones, 20 levels of content, and, what? 4? 5? new factions? To be fair, though, they've already made it clear that those 4 zones are better-made than any zones we've seen yet; not the same dozen buildings dropped over and over again, but completely designed city. And in addition to 20 levels of Praetorian content, there are 30 levels of we don't yet know how many morality missions. And one last thing to keep in mind: adding complexity to an already-complex system is not linear in difficulty, it's exponential. |
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
At the same time they've been working on I17 (Ultra mode, Doppleganger technology, some arcs), and I19 (Incarnate system), so I'm willing to cut them some slack.
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Originally Posted by poptart_fairy
Yeah, it's not obvious but a bunch of the features added over the last few issues have been ones which have needed some pretty extensive under the hood tinkering. The Mission Architect itself was an absolutely massive change - they didn't just give us access to development tools, they totally revamped how they make content themselves. Originally it was just a spreadsheet for god's sake.
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Still, i would accept a position as developer at Paragon Studios even if it was Developer in charge of Coffee, Tea and Snacks (Dev: CTS) as long as it paid a decent wage. If nothing else it would be an amusing resume entry, and i think i've already developed some rather tasty items in those areas that would could be easily ported to Paragon Studios.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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You know, as much as I appreciate the work BABs, Castle and the few other lost souls at Cryptic (don't try to correct me) did back in the day, and I DO appreciate it greatly, there's the undeniable sense that everything was a cost-saving solution, done to bring us as much benefit as possible for as low as a cost. We got weapon customization, which can't have been little work, but... Most of the weapons we got were ripped from existing NPCs. We got an overhaul of the War Zone, but as per War Witch, they could either tweak the story OR tweak the zone, and they chose to leave the zone almost as-is.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Seems to me that 80 odd devs should have been able to blitz GR with their eyes closed.
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A lot of the things they did either reused existing art assets (same factions, same instances, same animations and effects) with a few clever and innovative uses, or was a player-benefit adjustment to the system. They were GREAT additions, but they were budget additions.
Our newer, bigger development team is starting to get ambitious. They're starting to cast their eyes on things that AREN'T cheap, fast or easy, things that don't represent the veritable low-hanging fruit. Power customization, requiring so much work on art assets, the Architect, an entire new system that had to be built from scratch, new powersets built with their own graphics FROM THE GROUND UP, an overhauled graphics engine, and even a paid expansion with brand new zones and completely new enemy groups.
And you know what? It shows. When you see what was literally "more of the same," you can tell that they were basically trying to make do with what little resources they could spare. When you look at the newer things, you can tell the quality and polish in it.
I liken this to City of Villains, kind of, and I'll explain why. Grab a Necromancy Mastermind and use your upgrade. Now watch the effects. The "red smoke" followed a very elaborate swirl pattern where two or three possible entities coil around each other, making a really beautiful effect. And as it travels, it leaves behind a trail of worms, beetles, bugs and other critters that scurry away in all directions. That's just one power, but it has SO MUCH detail put into it. This is quality, and this is what adds oodles of value into the game.
And everything I've seen from Going Rogue tells me there is a LOT of quality in that. If we can only pick two of the trio of fast/cheap/good, they're emphasising the good a LOT more now.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This basically. Even things like new sets nowadays tend to be a lot more complex than they were. WP and Earth Assault (and maybe Elec Control, but we haven't seen it yet) are relatively "low hanging fruit" in terms of development but Dual Blades, Shields, Dual Pistols and Demon Summoning (and maybe Kinetic Combat in terms of animations) are a lot more complex.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You know, as much as I appreciate the work BABs, Castle and the few other lost souls at Cryptic (don't try to correct me) did back in the day, and I DO appreciate it greatly, there's the undeniable sense that everything was a cost-saving solution, done to bring us as much benefit as possible for as low as a cost. We got weapon customization, which can't have been little work, but... Most of the weapons we got were ripped from existing NPCs. We got an overhaul of the War Zone, but as per War Witch, they could either tweak the story OR tweak the zone, and they chose to leave the zone almost as-is.
A lot of the things they did either reused existing art assets (same factions, same instances, same animations and effects) with a few clever and innovative uses, or was a player-benefit adjustment to the system. They were GREAT additions, but they were budget additions. Our newer, bigger development team is starting to get ambitious. They're starting to cast their eyes on things that AREN'T cheap, fast or easy, things that don't represent the veritable low-hanging fruit. Power customization, requiring so much work on art assets, the Architect, an entire new system that had to be built from scratch, new powersets built with their own graphics FROM THE GROUND UP, an overhauled graphics engine, and even a paid expansion with brand new zones and completely new enemy groups. And you know what? It shows. When you see what was literally "more of the same," you can tell that they were basically trying to make do with what little resources they could spare. When you look at the newer things, you can tell the quality and polish in it. I liken this to City of Villains, kind of, and I'll explain why. Grab a Necromancy Mastermind and use your upgrade. Now watch the effects. The "red smoke" followed a very elaborate swirl pattern where two or three possible entities coil around each other, making a really beautiful effect. And as it travels, it leaves behind a trail of worms, beetles, bugs and other critters that scurry away in all directions. That's just one power, but it has SO MUCH detail put into it. This is quality, and this is what adds oodles of value into the game. And everything I've seen from Going Rogue tells me there is a LOT of quality in that. If we can only pick two of the trio of fast/cheap/good, they're emphasising the good a LOT more now. |
Even things like TFs. Old ones are basically a series of cloned missions which could be Radio Missions (Citadels is like running a series of Council Radio missions in the one tileset). More recent ones tend to be a few much more epic and involved ones typically with extra mechanics added to them.
Basically, yeah. As the development team expands, the quality of the final product, the attention to detail and the size of each project grows in proportion. They may not be doing more quantitatively, but in terms of added value, these guys are working their ***** off and delivering oodles.
And I, for one, really, really appreciate all of the effort.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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GR is going to be amazing - even just the look of it is so totally different from what we're used to in the current game.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Why? It doesn't apply. The situation we're discussing here is clearly stated as an exception to Brook's Law.
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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
I was hoping that someone would mention Brooks' Law.
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I support this post.
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Originally Posted by Judgement_Dave
You need to think bigger.
I'm expecting Egyptian dinosaurs on the moon complete with zombie space nazi riders and frikkin' laser beams. |
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[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
As for what's going to happen in I20, it will be easier for us to figure that out once we know what the Incarnate system looks like in I19.
I20 may just be adding post-20 zones to Praetoria (I hope that's a priority somewhere).
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."