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What do you mean 'work correctly' ?
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Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
Been waiting since i6 to revamp to defense to work correctly, just drop the attribute already and replace it with % for block,parry and dodge. Certainly with current system it is doable.
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I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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You do know about the enemy accuracy changes in Issue 7, don't you? Then, in Issue 13, all defense bonuses were turned into two bonuses, one typed and one positional. I tend to think that defense is in a good place, but that resistance is a bit undervalued currently.
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Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
Been waiting since i6 to revamp to defense to work correctly, just drop the attribute already and replace it with % for block,parry and dodge. Certainly with current system it is doable.
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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I know those changes lets ignore the tohit buffs and pvp problems for now, in pve the problem is defense is too prevalent and easy to cap for even non defense based toons especially thanks to IOs unlike resistance. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
You do know about the enemy accuracy changes in Issue 7, don't you? Then, in Issue 13, all defense bonuses were turned into two bonuses, one typed and one positional. I tend to think that defense is in a good place, but that resistance is a bit undervalued currently.
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Also as it stands positional is better than type defense, IMO they should have scrapped defense all together and rather implemented % value for block,parry and dodge. Which would have been more in line with the comics. May be its just me it just doesn't feel that exciting when you can simply avoid 90-95% of the attack an AVs throws at you.
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So you are complaining that defense is too good???|
Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
I know those changes lets ignore the tohit buffs and pvp problems for now, in pve the problem is defense is too prevalent and easy to cap for even non defense based toons especially thanks IOs unlike resis.
Also as it stands positional is better than type defense, IMO they should have scrapped defense all together and rather implemented % value for block,parry and dodge. |
I don't give two turds about pvp issues - they can change those separately now, so on to pve.
Smashing / lethal defense is far superior to positional defense because of the prevalence of smashing and lethal typed ranged / aoe attacks.
The large amount of defense available is something you dislike or do you dislike that resistances buffs are so few ? You also do not have to use the defense buff IO sets, you could intentionally create a weaker character.
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| implemented % value for block,parry and dodge. |
A character with 30% defense will block/dodge 60% of incoming damage, even despite accuracy buffs; so how is this not a % based defense ?. Tohit buffs is the counter to defense, and there aren't quite that many mobs that have large tohit buffs.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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My argument is that defense is too prevalent not that it is good and mechanic is over complicated than it needs to be. There is no need what so ever for type defense that is where resistance comes in.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
So you are complaining that defense is too good???
I don't give two turds about pvp issues - they can change those separately now, so on to pve. Smashing / lethal defense is far superior to positional defense because of the prevalence of smashing and lethal typed ranged / aoe attacks. The large amount of defense available is something you dislike or do you dislike that resistances buffs are so few ? You also do not have to use the defense buff IO sets, you could intentionally create a weaker character. |
As for S/L def vs positional defense Actually there are plenty of mobs with pure elemental attacks or psi range/aoe attack (Arachnos, CoT demons etc) which s/l def would not cover. I do dislike that soft cap is easier to reach coupled with over abundance of def bonus for IO sets.
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| Blocking and dodging are exactly what defense represents, while we have no true parry ability to setup potential counter attacks ( Though Parry and Divine Avalanche do improve your defense ). |
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Typed defense is necessary as a thematic concept - Ice Armor can deflect things but fire can melt it for example. Yes everything could be covered by positional defense, but that would mean we'd have no theme sets for elemental based defenses.|
Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
My argument is that defense is too prevalent not that it is good and mechanic is over complicated than it needs to be. There is no need what so ever for type defense that is where resistance comes in.
As for S/L def vs positional defense Actually there are plenty of mobs with pure elemental attacks or psi range/aoe attack (Arachnos, CoT demons etc) which s/l def would not cover. I do dislike that soft cap is easier to reach coupled with over abundance of def bonus for IO sets. IMO that mechanic would make things simpler for new players and also you cannot block or dodge any more than 50% of the attacks. |
Yes there are mobs without attacks containing smashing or lethal in their type, but it is actually fairly rare compared to the full pool of possible mobs. Certain enemy groups have many mobs that do not have s/l typed attacks, this is done on purpose to make them more difficult.
Like I mentioned before - the soft cap is easier to reach via IOs but you dont HAVE to use them. you can even turn your toggles off or just never play defense based toons if it feels too easy for you. Go roll an Invul and don't take Invincibility or Tough Hide. Alternately go play a blaster and have 0 def/res so that when AVs attack you you simply keel over and die in two hits. There are plenty of ways to make the game harder for you, bashing on min maxers that build their toons to be as strong as possible is not going to help you but it WILL hurt them if you manage to get nerfs caused.
Defense is pretty easy to understand (tohit - def) * (accuracy + accuracy buffs) = chance tohit. That is not needlessly complicated, infact it's not that different than most games that have tohit rolls : you roll and if you are better than the required amount , you land a hit.
I don't understand why you would want to complain about things being too easy when you can simply make them harder for yourself without nerfing everyone else.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
This may be a bit off topic, but all this talk about Invul brings me to my one real sore spot with the set. Unstoppable bites. Sure, it is a serious boost for 3 minutes. 3 minutes is nothing, nothing, in a serious combat these days. Try using it in the valley of the ITF. Try using it against an AV. One of your mates will be scrapping you up off the floor in about 3 min 15 secs, if you are fortunate. To give you my personal example of what I mean: My first 2 50s are SS/Invul Brutes, diff servers. I know this is about tanks, but stay with me. The issues here are parallel. I loved that set, and tried to work around that crash. Got to be a real artist at flying out of a horde, away from an AV, with 10 secs remaining, to find a safe place to crash. In truth, prob had about a 50% success rate, plus my team was without me for the next minute even if I survived.
So, Willpower (it took me almost a year to roll one up and truly run it after it came out) So now my main is a SS/Will brute. I regularly pop the tier nine on WP (even in the ITF valley, even vs AVs) and almost never have even a minor problem. Now, by regulary, I mean there is a ton of global rech on this guy, and he pops it whenever he feels like it, about every 3 minutes it is up (this is an estimate, I have not timed it). Now, by a minor problem I mean (since the globa rech is so high) he usually has 2 (sometimes 3) rage going, whch means mult rage drops, which can coincide with the tier 9 drop. And that big problem = (oh no!) my end bar is at less than 50%. er, eat a sm or med blue, move on.
So, as much as I love Invul, the tier nine (for me) makes it unplayable. The tier 9 on Invul is useful for very specific problems, once in a while, and has to be played with incredible tactical foresight (and some luck) to know the fight will be over when it drops. Then you are slowed down, slowing the team down until you recover. For that you not only give up a power, that is the ultimate power in that set. And it truly truly bites. So, I just never want to make one up, My main tank is also a will/SS, just not as tricked out as the brute, so no global rech. Can still use the tier 9, and does not have a problem with the crash.
I guess this was a general whine, but also specific on target about Invul nerf. (Although a diff nerf than previously mentioned) It is more like a you have ignored this set for so long that other sets make it look like a Model T vs a Moserati. Does anyone have an idea if they plan to fix this? Or is Invul the redheaded stepchild of the Armors?
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I have cheerfully skipped Unstoppable on my two level 50 Invulnerability tankers, and likely will never take it in its current form. I have never had it, avoided it on Heraclea back when it was possible to skip lots of stuff for concept reasons. Since I knew I could make a perfectly well performing Invuln tanker without it, when I rolled another (Inv/Dark Melee) I skipped it there too. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
So, as much as I love Invul, the tier nine (for me) makes it unplayable.
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(Memories..... back in i3 I never took Dull Pain, and levelled to 50 without it, because I thought it had a hitpoint crash when it wore off. I got this misconception from the forums, from tales of tankers dying when both Unstoppable and Dull Pain wore off in short succession.)
I agree that it isn't a particularly valuable power. An Inv or WP tanker with Tough and Weave on is unlikely to ever need it. A fight where you need that kind of resistance is going to outlast its duration, which likely will leave you dead. On the other hand, the set works just fine in its absence.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
correct me if im wrong but invuls back in issue 3 didnt take tough did they cause they capped out in s/l..thats why fire tanks were mad cause they HAD to take it cauase they need the one slot tough ( then nerfed to like 3) to capp out s/l
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It was not common for any tankers to take Tough or Weave back then, except for Fire tankers taking Tough.
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Originally Posted by Severe
correct me if im wrong but invuls back in issue 3 didnt take tough did they cause they capped out in s/l..thats why fire tanks were mad cause they HAD to take it cauase they need the one slot tough ( then nerfed to like 3) to capp out s/l
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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It shouldn't be common. It should largely be a waste to take them as a tank.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
It was not common for any tankers to take Tough or Weave back then, except for Fire tankers taking Tough.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Maybe yes. But at least for Tough, given the way it works now, there's almost no point in taking it at its current values unless you are starting from a fairly high level of resistance for it to add to. Weave does a bit more out of the box, but given an XOR choice most non-melees would be better off with Maneuvers. Bottom line is, there's really no motive for people who aren't scrappers or tankers to take either.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
It shouldn't be common. It should largely be a waste to take them as a tank.
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Minor nitpick, Willpower's Tier 9 cannot have lowered recharge: it stays at 300 seconds, per Castle's design. That's part of why it doesn't have a crash. I do agree that US and any other crash Tier 9s should get the same treatment. I'm probably going to grab US on my Invuln/Mace, but that's more for "oh, carp!" situations (and because I'm trying to build him without Tough and Weave). I'd probably use it more regularly and like using it without the crash. I kind of feel the same way about Light Form for Peacebringers, which is basically a US clone.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
So, Willpower (it took me almost a year to roll one up and truly run it after it came out) So now my main is a SS/Will brute. I regularly pop the tier nine on WP (even in the ITF valley, even vs AVs) and almost never have even a minor problem. Now, by regulary, I mean there is a ton of global rech on this guy, and he pops it whenever he feels like it, about every 3 minutes it is up (this is an estimate, I have not timed it). Now, by a minor problem I mean (since the globa rech is so high) he usually has 2 (sometimes 3) rage going, whch means mult rage drops, which can coincide with the tier 9 drop. And that big problem = (oh no!) my end bar is at less than 50%. er, eat a sm or med blue, move on.
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Tenzhi, I'm sure Castle would quibble with your "Tankers shouldn't have to take Tough or Weave" stance. Making all Tankers that powerful out of the box might make them too overpowered, or make them all too similar too each other (which is worse).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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The difference in perspective may be with/without IOs. In some ways, I think the typed defense change (grouping up like typed def like s/l, e/ne, and making positional/typed def bonuses give half of the other, melee->s/l, etc) had a bigger impact on the perspective of Invuln than Castle's changes did.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
They've never seemed powerful enough to me.
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Right now, you can make Invulns that have 90% s/l res, 30% res to exotics (sans Psi), and 45% def to all/most with one target in range. Between Invin's scaling def and their 50% def resistance, they can be hard to drop below. the softcap. With a build like that, I'd say Invuln is in the top 3 for survivability.
Of course, it's obviously not like that out of the box, which may be why your perspective differs.
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Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
Also as it stands positional is better than type defense
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Typed def also seems to have lower slot investment (4 for s/l def in Kinetic Combat vs 6 in Touch of Death for melee) than positional.
I think they're decently balanced.
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Originally Posted by Lohenien
Defense is pretty easy to understand (tohit - def) * (accuracy + accuracy buffs) = chance tohit. That is not needlessly complicated, infact it's not that different than most games that have tohit rolls : you roll and if you are better than the required amount , you land a hit.
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If it was "easy," Arcanaville wouldn't have written a novel titled "Guide to Defense."
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
It shouldn't be common. It should largely be a waste to take them as a tank.
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I don't like thinking about where that spiral leads.
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Agreed. I ran a blaster with Tough on test server just to try it out... It made a difference of about ten points of damage with the crey he was fighting. Not even close to worth taking as a blaster. I have it on scrappers and tanks only.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Maybe yes. But at least for Tough, given the way it works now, there's almost no point in taking it at its current values unless you are starting from a fairly high level of resistance for it to add to. Weave does a bit more out of the box, but given an XOR choice most non-melees would be better off with Maneuvers. Bottom line is, there's really no motive for people who aren't scrappers or tankers to take either.
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A sonic bubbler might benefit from it with an epic armor, but even then I think it would be a waste of endurance.
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
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Sonic Resonance + Epic Shield is roughly 66% res to s/l, if you added Tough, it would cap them at 75%.|
Originally Posted by Ice_Ember
A sonic bubbler might benefit from it with an epic armor, but even then I think it would be a waste of endurance.
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I've taken Tough on one squishy so far - my Kin/Sonic Defender. I was in melee and taking splash damage enough that is very useful when combined with an epic shield (also 66% res to s/l). The end cost isn't much of a concern either, since I have transference.
So I can conceive some squishies taking Tough.
Eh, I have built some squishies with Tough. It's more because I was angling for Weave, though I like getting the epic shields on all of them. It generally has to be one or the other with them, though... builds can only fit in so much. My Elec/Elec couldn't get both when he was building for Smash/Lethal defense, for instance. I think I can fit in both with the DP/EM I'm planning, though.
I figure any mitigation is good... fewer greens needed, you can last longer when your defense doesn't work for you, etc. You're not going to be a tank, obviously, but it is a nice layering for a build.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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I remember this period. Only time in my life I got tanked, called out a dev personally, and quit the game.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
And don't forget that this change was followed shortly (a few months later, IIRC) by Enhancement Diversification. Talk about insult on injury! At least that's how the players perceived it--boy, were the forums hot for a while there.
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I've never felt an inherent need to get Hasten with a blaster. In my experience they destroy things well enough without it.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Hrmm, I don't agree. If you say that "Tanks are supposed to be so tough that the Fighting pool is unnecessary," then that will prompt other classes to do the same. Blasters are meant to deal damage, so they should deal enough that Hasten should be a waste for them.
I don't like thinking about where that spiral leads. |
Conversely, my tanks seem far too squishy with just their native powers.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I have some unplayed characters that sit on my screen because they have Celebrant. |
Originally Posted by Ice_Ember
The ONLY reason I didnt delete it is because of the Celebrant badge.
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funny, i have toons that sit but not cause of that but because their 50 and i refuse to delete a 50..lol
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Originally Posted by Green_Eyed_Lady
I have some unplayed characters that sit on my screen because they have Celebrant.
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Sounds like yo both need more slots!
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Originally Posted by Severe
funny, i have toons that sit but not cause of that but because their 50 and i refuse to delete a 50..lol
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I've thought about it on my Fire/Sonic troller, but I'm already at higher resistance to S/L/F than most tanks I know |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Sonic Resonance + Epic Shield is roughly 66% res to s/l, if you added Tough, it would cap them at 75%.
I've taken Tough on one squishy so far - my Kin/Sonic Defender. I was in melee and taking splash damage enough that is very useful when combined with an epic shield (also 66% res to s/l). The end cost isn't much of a concern either, since I have transference. So I can conceive some squishies taking Tough. |
(Please don't read this as LOLIRBETTERTHANTANK; that's not what I wrote.)
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Originally Posted by Psara
Sounds like yo both need more slots!
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heh actualy i did..was completely out on guardian..filled the whole thing with 50s... until the free server transfers now i got plenty of slots!..lol
Sure, it's a solid set, but Fiery Embrace and Burn still make me a little sad.
The 30 second duration was for Fire damage only. It was 10 seconds for all others.
Ice Ember