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I'm afraid we'll have to disagree here, most of us are glad to find something in the game that's a challenge. You're missing the point about the STF too, NOTHING EXCEPT 8 COMPETENT PLAYERS IS REQUIRED TO SUCCEED. You don't need a perfect team, you don't need massive IO builds, you don't need any particular AT or powerset. All you need is some forethought and tactics. My first run through the STF was done without a single IO bonus on a single teammate... guess what, we succeeded. Hell yes it was hard; that's what makes the STF so much fun, that it ISN'T simply another boring waltz through. NOTHING about the STF "devalues" ANY AT... all can contribute to the success of the mission. Look over what your team has and adjust your strategy accordingly. Lots of Scrappers? Simply have the tank hold GW's aggro from range or feed everyone purples.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
No, not really, we do not. There are several reasons.
I don't want this game to start adding content for which "adequate preparation" means farming the inf to purchase large inspirations at the auction house, because that's what you need to come prepared. I've experienced this kind of raid preparation in other games. It's one of the reasons why I no longer play them. I haven't farmed for Shivans or nukes much since i13 made all mezzes auto-hit regardless of magnitude in PvP zones. Retoggling your several toggles with a minor offensive output like RttC or AAO is a nuisance even if you aren't simply left waiting to die. I don't want any situations where I'm expected to bring them. All such content disadvantages certain ATs, certain powersets, and certain combinations to some extent. Most scrappers can't fight Ghost Widow: bringing one just means that one of your DPS characters has to be sidelined on an archvillain fight, which explains the current situation regardless of how good they are elsewhere. Most controllers aren't allowed to use their pets on Ghost Widow, or for that matter on the first three rounds with Romulus. If masterminds are allowed to run hero TFs, they won't be wanted here either. This is already broken, broken, broken, and will become more obviously so come Going Rogue. I don't like the idea of content when some characters or ATs are forced to not use their signature powers or sit on their hands. That is not entertainment. And, if other games' gimmick and challenge fights are any indication, the gimmicks and challenges usually make melee DPS classes the least desirable. Most of them feature tactics that require forced disengagement, or phases where only certain types of damage would work. These tactics tended to inherently prejudice melee characters and physical damage. I cannot recall a gimmick fight in another game that required melee damage. Others were essentially "progression" bottlenecks designed to test whether you had the gear you were supposed to have gotten from some previous and easier encounter. If more of that sort of thing is added to this game, expect tankers and scrappers to be further devalued. I categorically do not want any crap like that in City of Heroes. Nothing would kill my interest in the game faster. I really hope that this Incarnate stuff is not an attempt to shoehorn this kind of grind into the game, because it really does not fit here. I have not found another game yet that I enjoy as much s this one, but if the Statesman TF is an indication of what the future holds, it may be time to move on. |
And "farming for inf for large inspirations?" Really? Your level 50 has to farm in order to purchase inspirations? Every now and then I simply place a bunch of bids for large inspirations at $5,000 each and they'll usually fill in 24 hours. Those get stored in Base storage so they're there when we need them. Medium & Large insp drops get tossed in as well at the end of the day... any that aren't useful are combined into ones we use. My total inf cost for my STF tanking loadout is only around $100k - $200k... about what you'd make running a typical radio mission, and I don't very often use up half my tray. Heck, the way insps drop in the STF you could go in with an empty tray and have a decent loadout by the time you needed it.
As has been said the STF's been done with 8 Scrappers. It's been done with 8 Blasters. It's been done with 8 Controllers many, MANY times. It's been done with 8 Tankers. It's been done many times by 8 Defenders. It's even been done with 8 Keldians. I've done it with many different team setups... and all but 3 times it's been successful... one of the failures was actually due to a bug.
It really sounds like you're complaining because there's one TF where you can't simply sleepwalk through; I have a hard time understanding that. If you don't enjoy a challenge, doing something that's actually hard, then simply don't run the TF. Just don't complain that it's "too hard" and needs to be changed; IMO it's the best TF in the game and my favorite to run simply because it IS a challenge. No cheap gimmicks; you just have to adapt your strategy to what your team brings to the table. I haven't used Shivans, Nukes or anything beyond simple inspirations on the STF since issue 10; they're simply not needed.
I actually prefer doing the STF as a MoSTF if I've an experienced team for the extra challenge... and no, I'm not talking about a stacked "holy trinity" team either, just all competent players who know the TF. MoSTF is a challenge I've only succeeded at 6 times out of more than 20 attempts.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
On the all Scrapper STF I tanked all the AVs and proved them all doable without defeat, just to expose how good Scrappers really are on this TF for Mo's (because I am not archetypist or powersetist).
I ofcourse was a Tanker in Scrappers clothing whilst a mate was a Trick Archer in Scrappers clothing. |
Care to explain the last part? Do you mean litteraly had a Tanker and a Trick Archer... making it not "all scrapper". Or you've had a scrapper build like a tanker and one build like a TA? How do you build a scrapper like a TA? Kinda curious. =P
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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In Scrappers clothing means playing a Scrapper. Scrapper doing a Tankers job (its not intrinsically actually) and a Scrapper doing the job my TA would be doing and for survivabilities sake a TA is enough, infact any defender or controller can provide enough actually all ATs can be a duct tape roleplay of another. Blasters aren't all pure damage, they can be part control and so Damage/Duct Tape Controller. All anyone has to do is look at secondary effects of a Controller or Defender and get the secondary effects too.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Care to explain the last part? Do you mean litteraly had a Tanker and a Trick Archer... making it not "all scrapper". Or you've had a scrapper build like a tanker and one build like a TA? How do you build a scrapper like a TA? Kinda curious. =P
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Weapon Mastery takes Scrappers to Duct Tape Trick Archer best. I recommend duct taping a TA over a Emp. Having to stop and heal is a pita.
Edit: I reckon me and Awesome with me as a Trick Archer could MoSTF with 6 blasters. We are just on different servers.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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This game is still a cakewalk on SOs. I don't play very much lately but I would still surely consider myself a powergamer, yet I still use SOs and generic IOs that have conveniently dropped mainly because I'm horrendously cheap and lazy.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
I don't want this game to start adding content for which "adequate preparation" means farming the inf to purchase large inspirations at the auction house, because that's what you need to come prepared. I've experienced this kind of raid preparation in other games. It's one of the reasons why I no longer play them.
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The STF, when it was released, was accused of being impossible, even with the plethora of tricks available to cheat him away from the Towers. It has only gotten harder as these glitches have been fixed (and even new gimmicks added, such as the Resistance on the Red Tower) and I, as valuable as limited anecdotal observation is, have not noticed nowhere near as much complaining about its supposed impossibility.
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| I haven't farmed for Shivans or nukes much since i13 made all mezzes auto-hit regardless of magnitude in PvP zones. Retoggling your several toggles with a minor offensive output like RttC or AAO is a nuisance even if you aren't simply left waiting to die. I don't want any situations where I'm expected to bring them. |
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| All such content disadvantages certain ATs, certain powersets, and certain combinations to some extent. Most scrappers can't fight Ghost Widow: bringing one just means that one of your DPS characters has to be sidelined on an archvillain fight, which explains the current situation regardless of how good they are elsewhere. |
You get out what you put in, it's that simple.
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| Most controllers aren't allowed to use their pets on Ghost Widow, or for that matter on the first three rounds with Romulus. |
All the game is doing is taking advantage of the tactics you might use on every other encounter. It's subverting the tried&true methods yet this is somehow claimed to be pigeon-holing people, which I just find funny.
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| If masterminds are allowed to run hero TFs, they won't be wanted here either. |
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And, if other games' gimmick and challenge fights are any indication, the gimmicks and challenges usually make melee DPS classes the least desirable. Most of them feature tactics that require forced disengagement, or phases where only certain types of damage would work. These tactics tended to inherently prejudice melee characters and physical damage. I cannot recall a gimmick fight in another game that required melee damage. Others were essentially "progression" bottlenecks designed to test whether you had the gear you were supposed to have gotten from some previous and easier encounter. If more of that sort of thing is added to this game, expect tankers and scrappers to be further devalued. I categorically do not want any crap like that in City of Heroes. Nothing would kill my interest in the game faster. I really hope that this Incarnate stuff is not an attempt to shoehorn this kind of grind into the game, because it really does not fit here. I have not found another game yet that I enjoy as much s this one, but if the Statesman TF is an indication of what the future holds, it may be time to move on. |
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
You know, this thread just reminded me of the last time I ran a PuG Kahn TF. That's a pretty easy one, and I thought we'd all just get started and whip through it. We had a tank, 2 scrappers, 2 blasters, 2 Rads, and a Dark. Cake, right?
But the team leader insisted on getting a bunch of heavies and pointed out how he had a shivan for Reichman, and there was some moaning about not having an Emp (hey Rads, keep up those heals!).
Predictably, we finished it in well under an hour w/zero problems (other than the tank refusing to lead fights, which prompted the scrappers to take over). I'm convinced that the team leader only thought we won the last fight cuz he summoned all his temp powers.
STF isn't much different, just a bit more challenging. And like any challenge, you need a combination of:
1) Preparation: team makeup, temps, big insps
2) Good tactics and player skill
You don't need both, and with enough of (2), you don't need any of (1). If you have a serious deficit of (2), you'll need a lot of (1).
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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GJ you said the last bit. This should be standard thinking.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
STF isn't much different, just a bit more challenging. And like any challenge, you need a combination of:
1) Preparation: team makeup, temps, big insps 2) Good tactics and player skill You don't need both, and with enough of (2), you don't need any of (1). If you have a serious deficit of (2), you'll need a lot of (1). |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Very well put; I agree completely.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
You know, this thread just reminded me of the last time I ran a PuG Kahn TF. That's a pretty easy one, and I thought we'd all just get started and whip through it. We had a tank, 2 scrappers, 2 blasters, 2 Rads, and a Dark. Cake, right?
But the team leader insisted on getting a bunch of heavies and pointed out how he had a shivan for Reichman, and there was some moaning about not having an Emp (hey Rads, keep up those heals!). Predictably, we finished it in well under an hour w/zero problems (other than the tank refusing to lead fights, which prompted the scrappers to take over). I'm convinced that the team leader only thought we won the last fight cuz he summoned all his temp powers. STF isn't much different, just a bit more challenging. And like any challenge, you need a combination of: 1) Preparation: team makeup, temps, big insps 2) Good tactics and player skill You don't need both, and with enough of (2), you don't need any of (1). If you have a serious deficit of (2), you'll need a lot of (1). |
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Very true, what is funny and sad though is the game for the most part is easy enough where if you drop a few temp powers (Chem Nuke + Shivans and maybe a heavy) From 2 or 3 people they can complete the encounter for you.|
Originally Posted by dave_p
You know, this thread just reminded me of the last time I ran a PuG Kahn TF. That's a pretty easy one, and I thought we'd all just get started and whip through it. We had a tank, 2 scrappers, 2 blasters, 2 Rads, and a Dark. Cake, right?
But the team leader insisted on getting a bunch of heavies and pointed out how he had a shivan for Reichman, and there was some moaning about not having an Emp (hey Rads, keep up those heals!). Predictably, we finished it in well under an hour w/zero problems (other than the tank refusing to lead fights, which prompted the scrappers to take over). I'm convinced that the team leader only thought we won the last fight cuz he summoned all his temp powers. STF isn't much different, just a bit more challenging. And like any challenge, you need a combination of: 1) Preparation: team makeup, temps, big insps 2) Good tactics and player skill You don't need both, and with enough of (2), you don't need any of (1). If you have a serious deficit of (2), you'll need a lot of (1). |
As for LR + GW I'd think by now people would have figured out the 30 different ways to do them.
Taunt from range + Immob on GW means you can bring all the scraps you want. Or just Spam a few purples, or better yet, bring a FF or Cold. GW is stupidly easy the moment you realize her attacks are based off the standard to hit roll and 40-45% defense means that pesky heal just won't hit.
Vengeance.... *every* build can take it, most builds can perma it. With moderate coordination you can stack it. It trivializes I think *every* encounter in this game.
I think you need around 80% defense for LR to regularly miss you. One defender with PB Veng can give 65% defense to the entire team. That means they are about one small purple away from being in elude when fighting him.
Heraclea: Once again, you're engaging in wild exaggeration and hyperbole to support your position here.
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You can't be serious here. I've never even bought a large inspiration to use on the STF, let alone felt I had to "farm" to get them. And that includes quite a few MoSTF runs as well. I usually just go with what I have in the tray. Inspirations are only ONE way for a player to overcome some of their weaknesses when facing a challenging situation. Not the only way, just one of them. Facing Lord Recluse, the signature Archvillain in the game, is by definition, a challenging situation.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
I don't want this game to start adding content for which "adequate preparation" means farming the inf to purchase large inspirations at the auction house, because that's what you need to come prepared. I've experienced this kind of raid preparation in other games. It's one of the reasons why I no longer play them.
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There is no content in the game that requires large inspirations to complete.
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| I haven't farmed for Shivans or nukes much since i13 made all mezzes auto-hit regardless of magnitude in PvP zones. Retoggling your several toggles with a minor offensive output like RttC or AAO is a nuisance even if you aren't simply left waiting to die. I don't want any situations where I'm expected to bring them. |
There is no content in the game that requires pets or nukes to complete.
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| All such content disadvantages certain ATs, certain powersets, and certain combinations to some extent. Most scrappers can't fight Ghost Widow: bringing one just means that one of your DPS characters has to be sidelined on an archvillain fight, which explains the current situation regardless of how good they are elsewhere. |
And "sidelined"? Come on now, Heraclea. Even if your claim that all scrappers have to stay away from GW were true, which it is not, that is hardly "sidelined". They still have ranged attacks, either from their primary, from APP's, from temp powers, or from vet powers.
There is no content in the game that cannot be completed by scrappers.
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| Most controllers aren't allowed to use their pets on Ghost Widow, or for that matter on the first three rounds with Romulus. |
As far as the ITF and Rom, I have never once dismissed my pets on my Bots/Traps MM for that encounter, nor have I been asked to. I've offered to dismiss them, and been told not to worry about it. So, again, you are wildly exaggerating the issue here.
There is no content in this game that cannot be completed by Masterminds and Controllers.
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| If masterminds are allowed to run hero TFs, they won't be wanted here either. |
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| This is already broken, broken, broken, and will become more obviously so come Going Rogue. I don't like the idea of content when some characters or ATs are forced to not use their signature powers or sit on their hands. That is not entertainment. |
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| I categorically do not want any crap like that in City of Heroes. Nothing would kill my interest in the game faster. |
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Wow. I think that is the best way I have ever seen that summarized.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
And like any challenge, you need a combination of:
1) Preparation: team makeup, temps, big insps 2) Good tactics and player skill You don't need both, and with enough of (2), you don't need any of (1). If you have a serious deficit of (2), you'll need a lot of (1). |
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(shrug) Not on any STF team that I've been on.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Anything that decreases the chance of success increases the chance of failure. Since Ghost Widow is a major roadblock in the STF, and a blaster helps more than any scrapper in getting past that roadblock, the scrapper will be told to bring another character.
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I just don't see the kind of situation you keep describing and I like the STF just the way it is. Having a game be 'casual friendly' doesn't mean that it has to be non-stop easy mode.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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If the STF can be duo'd, then it definitely is not broken.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
This, exactly --- which more or less raises the question as to whether the STF is broken and not much fun.
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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If a team fills up to 8 and makes a pentad-based or septad-based team, usually with either an extra defender/controller, the team should be fine as long as everyone knows what they are doing, pay attention, don't go afk, don't quit. Everyone on the team doesn't even have to be super-experienced, just well-versed in teaming, what their own team can do, and what their other team-mates will be doing as well.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Within the context of this game I'd say that "preparation" and "team makeup" are the polar opposite to the qualities that make it unique and enjoyable among competing MMOs. All characters are supposed to be able to run all the content, and the lack of a debuffer, a buffer, a healer, a ranged or a melee attacker, or for that matter a tank aren't supposed to leave any team dead in the water.
The STF is not like that, and as such is a problem in the context of this game. |
Um... Cheers guys! Lots of helpful advice/arguing in there. 
Although most of us had Shivans and Nukes (always handy to have anyway), we had to use those on Ghost Widow. Hadn't bothered to buy Insps, but that seems doable.
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Here's my tanker's build.
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Originally Posted by Acemace
As far as the OP's question, why not show your build you might get some tips that can help for round two, since WP can definitely tank LR.
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OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
I'd give myself more flexibility with taunt to be better able to tank to strengths without compromising others. You could of tanked LR for EN damage with your build. EN is what your softcapped to.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I'd call it a mix. On my Stone tank, I can do LR with a bubbler, emp or a bunch of purples. GW I need something with stackable -mez, or a bunch of BFs. I've seen Invulns do it, but they require more support. Either way without crazy IO slotting, you need some help, but it certainly affects how much.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Basically, the design of the TF is supposed to be so that it does not matter what tank you take, so much as it matters what buffs / debuffs you have available for the tank to take advantage of. If you don't have any debuffs with -to-hit or -damage sitting on Recluse, and you don't have anything to buff the tank with, chances are you will go splat.
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A Granite tank can handle LR with zero support and usually with no inspiration use... I've done it many times with my Stone/Fire. Heck, Granite + Rooted can handle it on SO's... that's how I did it the first few times I tanked the STF with Granite Flame. Invuln, if well built, does need some inspirations until the red tower drops but CAN survive without anything once the Red tower's gone even if the Blue tower's still up... you just need a small amount of luck and maybe a green or two. I still tend to keep purples active until the blue dies as a precaution. Once both Red & Blue are down an Invuln's just fine unassisted and probably won't even need inspirations; I typically allow mine to expire once that point's reached.|
Originally Posted by Psara
I'd call it a mix. On my Stone tank, I can do LR with a bubbler, emp or a bunch of purples. GW I need something with stackable -mez, or a bunch of BFs. I've seen Invulns do it, but they require more support. Either way without crazy IO slotting, you need some help, but it certainly affects how much.
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Stacked mez buffs is one way to handle Ghostie; another is to simply keep your defense at the 45% soft cap. All of her attacks and her heal have standard accuracy after all; negative energy defense makes you relatively safe from the hold. Anymore I don't worry much about the hold; if I have an emp or kin on the team then I'll ask for the 8 CM/ID buffs beating the hold takes, if not I simply fall back on defense. If I'm tanking her in melee then I need no purples... I'm at 45% to S/L/E/N with one foe in Invincibility. If I'm range tanking then I'm around 34% defense and need one small purple per minute.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Should be noted that "standard accuracy," when you're talking about a +4 AV-class critter, means that their ToHit floor is still going to be 10.5%.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Stacked mez buffs is one way to handle Ghostie; another is to simply keep your defense at the 45% soft cap. All of her attacks and her heal have standard accuracy after all; negative energy defense makes you relatively safe from the hold.
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Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
I want to tank the STF with a Kheld for Khelds. I am pretty sure I can do it. Just got to get the peeps and we are set to try it.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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It can be done |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I want to tank the STF with a Kheld for Khelds. I am pretty sure I can do it. Just got to get the peeps and we are set to try it.
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My first ever STF had a Warshade as our Tank.plus me Emp/Elec, Fire/Kin, Fire/Rad, Dark/Dark scrapper, Peacebringer, and one more scrapper and a defender (FF iirc).
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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It's doable, but not easily. Your biggest problem is all the defense LR has from the Orange tower makes your taunt, Dwarf Antagonize, very iffy to hold aggro... if LR sees something shiny on the rest of the team he'll ignore you and go pummel them into the ground.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I want to tank the STF with a Kheld for Khelds. I am pretty sure I can do it. Just got to get the peeps and we are set to try it.
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That said I HAVE tanked it with my PB; it took considerable team support and I HAD to get him well out of LOS of the towers before the team went in... if he saw them beating his towers he had a strong tendency to ignore me and run over to pound them. Survivability wise I was roughly at base fire tanker level requiring pretty consistent healing from the team's emp. This was back when the STF was relatively new... given my preference I'd rather have had a sonic bubbler truthfully.
I haven't really thought about how it would work in today's game; this was before the Keld buffs. It'd be an interesting challenge.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
the first time i tackled lr on my fire tank i hit eye of magnus and called him a wuss!!!
after that went i hit healing flames once and then got murdered hard..lol
after that between the ab from the healer and my healing flames i found the nitch in how to keep him occupied.
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yeah i gonna make sure that ppl art in nova shooting them pylons from max range and from around the corner to LR. My Antagonize is superslotted but it not ideal still.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
It's doable, but not easily. Your biggest problem is all the defense LR has from the Orange tower makes your taunt, Dwarf Antagonize, very iffy to hold aggro... if LR sees something shiny on the rest of the team he'll ignore you and go pummel them into the ground.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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The problem is the accuracy... actually hitting him with antagonize is like hitting a MOG'd PP... you'll be at the tohit floor until that orange tower's gone. This is where a tank has a huge advantage with Taunt being autohit. For the most part you'll be depending on "sight" aggro; you'll need to make sure he doesn't see something else he'd rather hit.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
yeah i gonna make sure that ppl art in nova shooting them pylons from max range and from around the corner to LR. My Antagonize is superslotted but it not ideal still.
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COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
On the all Scrapper STF I tanked all the AVs and proved them all doable without defeat, just to expose how good Scrappers really are on this TF for Mo's (because I am not archetypist or powersetist).
All the Scrappers were surrounding Ghost Widow. Quite happy taking her down iirc also without defeat. This had nothing to do with their builds (they could be any Armour and on SOs). It was purely down to how we did it of which the method is briefed on in this thread.
I ofcourse was a Tanker in Scrappers clothing whilst a mate was a Trick Archer in Scrappers clothing. We cake walked her. Aeon is harder, requires a flyby taunt Aeon to cover whilst others aggro atleast 1 EB before beating Aeon down, leaving me only having to survive Aeon but anyway..it's a shame that Victory is how you describe it but it's not alone. There is one server EU side that I barely touch as a Tanker anymore because I just can't be pained with trying to get people out of their boxes. Edit: most those players probably left years ago though.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.