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I don't think there is any issue with the STF. It's designed to be hard, but I've seen a plethora of different group makeups pull it off. My first ever STF, back before IOs or we even knew how it worked, comprised 3 Tankers, 1 Scrapper, 2 Blasters, 1 Controller (FF), and 1 Defender (FF). No debuffs, no toggle debuffs for Recluse. I've also been on an all Scrapper STF. It was messy, but doable.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Yes, that is fairly close to what I meant. (I doubt that a team full of controllers would "roll through" much of anything unless one was Kinetics. But they ought to be able to succeed at any task.)
I have always understood this to be a basic premise of this game's design philosophy and market strategy. No team should hit a brick wall because of the lack of a specific AT, much less a specific power set. Any mission where specific inspirations are part of the design of an encounter ought to be made available by the mission itself, the way the Eden trial works. If these design decisions are in fact fundamental to the game, I think it follows that the STF is indeed broken. |
Also, the STF isn't designed with specific inspirations in mind. Inspirations should be used to fill in the gap of what you and your team don't have. If you have FF or Colds on the team, purples may not be necessary. If you have therms or sonics, then oranges may not be necessary. There is no need to provide them inside the mission since they're so easily available elsewhere (Ouroboros). Heck, if you have the right team, inspirations may not be necessary at all. (I've almost gone through the entire TF without using a single insp. It was a stacked team, but just illustrating that they're not an absolute necessity.)
Just because other TFs can be brain-dead easy like Citadel doesn't mean that harder ones are broken. It just means you need to plan a bit, which I don't think is a bad thing.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
What do they do?
(Please don't say "offtank the other AV(s) that got pulled along with GW.") |
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The culture on my main server (Victory) seems to be that scrappers are almost as unwelcome as Kheldians on STF runs, and are generally considered a liability. A second tanker is even worse, of course. No more than one scrapper per team will be tolerated, and that's usually considered a charity spot. Blasters are strongly preferred for DPS. This may be different on other servers. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Just because other TFs can be brain-dead easy like Citadel doesn't mean that harder ones are broken. It just means you need to plan a bit, which I don't think is a bad thing.
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I think only one or two of my scrappers have the basic badges from the task force. Usually if I bring one I'll be asked to switch. My cold/ice controller and my rad/archery defender are much more popular; these characters got to 50 running task forces. I doubt that either has actually run a mission since King's Row. I'm not sure they could if they wanted to.
I have probably run LGTF 10x and ITF 50x for every STF.
There are other missions in the game that are almost as bad. The usual method for the invasion mission on Dr K is that only tankers and scrappers enter to take down the five portals. That has to be fun for folks sitting outside.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Why would you turn down Kelds for the STF? They do a fantastic job of filling in wherever you have a weakness. They contribute significant damage, can tank anything short of LR (Dwarf taunt not being autohit and LR's capped defense from the Orange tower) and have other things to offer as well.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
The culture on my main server (Victory) seems to be that scrappers are almost as unwelcome as Kheldians on STF runs, and are generally considered a liability. A second tanker is even worse, of course. No more than one scrapper per team will be tolerated, and that's usually considered a charity spot. Blasters are strongly preferred for DPS. This may be different on other servers.
I think only one or two of my scrappers have the basic badges from the task force. Usually if I bring one I'll be asked to switch. My cold/ice controller and my rad/archery defender are much more popular; these characters got to 50 running task forces. I doubt that either has actually run a mission since King's Row. I'm not sure they could if they wanted to. I have probably run LGTF 10x and ITF 50x for every STF. There are other missions in the game that are almost as bad. The usual method for the invasion mission on Dr K is that only tankers and scrappers enter to take down the five portals. That has to be fun for folks sitting outside. |
I have no problem at all with Kelds or Scrappers on an STF (or frankly any other AT for that matter)... the only possible speed bump with Scrappers is Ghost Widow and there are ways around that. All you need is a tank to hold aggro from range and Dark Regeneration is a non-issue. Failing that you can all eat purples to hit the 45% soft cap and again the heal's a non-factor.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Cysts spawning amid the several AVs or in the passages someone is trying to stealth through are inconvenient.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Why would you turn down Kelds for the STF?
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
What do they do?
(Please don't say "offtank the other AV(s) that got pulled along with GW.") |
1 Scrapper can be self made able to successfully offtank the right 2 AVs and if someone was to attack any of them then its only possible to keep full control of 2 AVs. Infact best stick with upto 2.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Never seen it happen myself but I suppose it's possible. Still doesn't sound like a major problem; I've run a couple dozen STF's with Kelds on the team and we've never had issues with Cysts. I can only think of once or twice we've even seen a Cyst on an STF; they are a rare spawn. Even so they generally aren't a problem for a competent 45-50 team.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Cysts spawning amid the several AVs or in the passages someone is trying to stealth through are inconvenient.
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COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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There is a way to lock GW in one place with a power anyone can get. Obviously a pool power.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
The hardest time is if you lack a non-illusion controller, and can't lock her down in one spot reliably. its much harder to keep the DPS up and stay out of the cone arcs
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Hmm, I haven't noticed her being particularly vulnerable to fear with my Ill/Rad... and I do keep Spooky out on the off chance his psi damage proc hits.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
There is a way to lock GW in one place with a power anyone can get. Obviously a pool power.
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Offhand I can't think of any pool power that would have a "lock down" effect other than Intimidate or Invoke Panic; and with the lack of effect from Spooky I don't see them working. I've tanked GW while a buddy played his Ill/Rad and Ghostie would sporadically attempt to close to melee with me.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Fear kiting, yeah I'd like to get to that one day but it's something I'd do with a Stormie. I wasn't talking about presence pool however. I was talking about Air Superiority without people using Avoid/Fear effects to get a kind of lock.
If you have the tanker just directly above her she may want to climb up somewhere to get closer if unhappy, but if she is already at an apex she can go no higher without flight. Air Superiority is -fly and someone can spam it thus giving no further options in getting towards someone she is compelled to hit but can't and so she is effectively locked directly below the Tanker.
This is part of how you can tank for Trick Archers who have -fly in Entangling Arrow btw. Any type of Tanker can tank the entire STF for just a Trick Archer.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Ah, a light dawns... no pun intended|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Fear kiting, yeah I'd like to get to that one day but it's something I'd do with a Stormie. I wasn't talking about presence pool however. I was talking about Air Superiority without people using Avoid/Fear effects to get a kind of lock.
If you have the tanker just directly above her she may want to climb up somewhere to get closer if unhappy, but if she is already at an apex she can go no higher without flight. Air Superiority is -fly and someone can spam it thus giving no further options in getting towards someone she is compelled to hit but can't and so she is effectively locked directly below the Tanker. This is part of how you can tank for Trick Archers who have -fly in Entangling Arrow btw. Any type of Tanker can tank the entire STF for just a Trick Archer. |
That hadn't occurred to me since none of my tankers fly. Well, one of my Stone tanks has Hover to go along with TP for travel but it's kind of theoretical to tank with it on a stone tank
CMA does have a Raptor Pack though; I may try that next time.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Of course! If you can't tank and spank all the time...well boo then! |
Originally Posted by Clouded
Having a challenging encounter for the end game is considered broken?
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Try looking for a method to tank for every type of defender. I don't know about your server but certain types of defenders generally tend to skip the powers that would be useful to aid a tanker survivability. Not to worry though, Tankers can get everything for themselves when it comes to AVs but they will be more AV biased than farm biased etc. It can all come down to control if you want it to.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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That mind set is kinda disappointing really...on the STFs I've been on with Infinity...we typically run more controllers and defenders, though sometimes we may have 2 tanks, which is not a bad thing, 1 blaster or 1 scrapper. I see nothing wrong with Khelds on the team, if a team is worried about a Shadow Cyst by the time they can do a STF, something with the team needs to be re-evaluated, Cysts are nothing more than a small speed bump.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
The culture on my main server (Victory) seems to be that scrappers are almost as unwelcome as Kheldians on STF runs, and are generally considered a liability. A second tanker is even worse, of course. No more than one scrapper per team will be tolerated, and that's usually considered a charity spot. Blasters are strongly preferred for DPS. This may be different on other servers.
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As for the OP, any tank can tank LR, it all matters on what you bring to the ball game man. Emps, Colds, Force Fields, Vengeance, Eye of Magus, Purples.
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There's a huge difference between "nothing is needed" and "any team can succeed". |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Yes, that is fairly close to what I meant. (I doubt that a team full of controllers would "roll through" much of anything unless one was Kinetics. But they ought to be able to succeed at any task.)
I have always understood this to be a basic premise of this game's design philosophy and market strategy. No team should hit a brick wall because of the lack of a specific AT, much less a specific power set. Any mission where specific inspirations are part of the design of an encounter ought to be made available by the mission itself, the way the Eden trial works. If these design decisions are in fact fundamental to the game, I think it follows that the STF is indeed broken. |
STF have been done by an one-AT team, for each ATs (except maybe khelds) Just there, that means no power set or AT is requiered.
Nothing is needed means you don't need to have a tanker or a scrapper or controller or etc.
But that doesn't mean a team of 8 Stone/BA or 8 dark/FF should be able to complete it.
The only thing i hate in STF is the very last fight, with LR and the towers. Any other part can easily be done with a bits of deaths, strategies and insps. I've never seen a team that couldnt get to the last mission, even with STF-virgin PUG teams.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
The STF is the only Task Force I've failed, and I've failed it more than once. I really don't know what to think of it.
I'm kind of cursed. The two teams I've run it with easily made their way through the early missions, but ran into a brick wall either with Ghost Widow or Lord Recluse. The fact that neither team made it to the finish with all 8 members intact probably contributed. I hate to admit this, because I really enjoyed the early parts of the TF, but the big 5 boss fights (particularly against GW) at the end were sort of boring. It did seem very much like a gimmick fight.
IMO, so far my favorite end fights have been at the of the ITF, the Lady Grey TF, and fighting Reichsman at the end of the villain SF I don't know the name of. The ITF, minus the valley-of-lag part, stands out to me as the most fun of the various TFs. I really hope the new TFs in Going Rogue veer toward the ITF and not the STF. But maybe I'd feel differently if I ever got on a team that actually stuck through to the end.
two kins and vengeance, you can still get through the STF, it won't be in record time, but you'll still beat it
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The encounter isn't broken, your methods are if this is how you think the STF goes.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
An encounter where any one of the ATs or powersets can't contribute anything at all, or where one of a small handful of power sets are required for success, is a broken encounter.
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Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
STF is cake really. Some people may of done it a hundred times but they still overkill in what they need for survivability. A tanker with more than one defender and controller in the team has too many crutches. Sure it can speed things up but to need more than that to survive is overkill. If team mates require more than that then I hope it's also for speed purposes. To determine that any AT shouldn't be there to increase chances or to have a more effective team is also not very good imo as some poor soul is out there with their badge character incapable of so much as getting on a team let alone learning how to complete something but also a sign of lack of adaptability and tactical prowess. Some people have classed me as a snob but I really do wonder who the real snobs are. I've basically never cared what other people play.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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This is a sober read-thru Heraclea. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
The culture on my main server (Victory) seems to be that scrappers are almost as unwelcome as Kheldians on STF runs, and are generally considered a liability. A second tanker is even worse, of course. No more than one scrapper per team will be tolerated, and that's usually considered a charity spot. Blasters are strongly preferred for DPS. This may be different on other servers.
I think only one or two of my scrappers have the basic badges from the task force. Usually if I bring one I'll be asked to switch. My cold/ice controller and my rad/archery defender are much more popular; these characters got to 50 running task forces. I doubt that either has actually run a mission since King's Row. I'm not sure they could if they wanted to. I have probably run LGTF 10x and ITF 50x for every STF. There are other missions in the game that are almost as bad. The usual method for the invasion mission on Dr K is that only tankers and scrappers enter to take down the five portals. That has to be fun for folks sitting outside. |
Perhaps I am lucky to be on a lower pop server.But reading this made me realize that just as in other MMOs people will devolve every challenge down into specific formulas of success (certain group mix, certain power choices, specific strategies) and anything else is deemed automatically a failure. I am sorry that this is the norm on your server, and I would rather CoX continue to be the non-typical MMO.
As an aside, my first ever STF was done recently, and we had 4-5 Vets and the rest of us were first timers on that TF. Included on this TF were 2 Scrappers, 2 Controllers, 2 Defenders, and 2 Kheldians. Our main Tank was a Warshade. We had a few deaths, no total wipeouts, but LR went down on the second attempt. He would have gone down the first attempt, but some of us were first-timers. So although we had an odd assortment of ATs, and a Non-tanker on LR, our tactics made it thru eventually.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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No, it's really not. There should be challenges in the game that require forethought, preparation and intelligent play. There is more than enough (too much, in my opinion) content that any random team can sail through with very little effort. We need more content that is challenging, not less.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Within the context of this game I'd say that "preparation" and "team makeup" are the polar opposite to the qualities that make it unique and enjoyable among competing MMOs. All characters are supposed to be able to run all the content, and the lack of a debuffer, a buffer, a healer, a ranged or a melee attacker, or for that matter a tank aren't supposed to leave any team dead in the water.
The STF is not like that, and as such is a problem in the context of this game. |
You're also exaggerating the team composition issue by a large margin. Teams have successfully completed the STF without every single AT or powerset you mentioned above. There have been successful all-scrapper STF's. The STF does not require the team to follow an exact template when putting the team together. I've been on multiple successful MoSTF runs with several quite varied team compositions, including your maligned scrapper AT.
Completing the STF should feel like an accomplishment, especially if it's a Master run. Dumb it down so any random group of players, with any type of powersets, or builds, no matter how bad, can waltz right through it takes away that accomplishment and turns it into just another ho-hum TF to grind for merits.
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Frankly, this sounds like much more of a 'culture' issue with your server's TF crowd. In the two years I've been playing on Protector, I can count the times I've seen this kind of mentality on one hand. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
The culture on my main server (Victory) seems to be that scrappers are almost as unwelcome as Kheldians on STF runs, and are generally considered a liability. A second tanker is even worse, of course. No more than one scrapper per team will be tolerated, and that's usually considered a charity spot. Blasters are strongly preferred for DPS. This may be different on other servers.
I think only one or two of my scrappers have the basic badges from the task force. Usually if I bring one I'll be asked to switch. My cold/ice controller and my rad/archery defender are much more popular; these characters got to 50 running task forces. I doubt that either has actually run a mission since King's Row. I'm not sure they could if they wanted to. I have probably run LGTF 10x and ITF 50x for every STF. There are other missions in the game that are almost as bad. The usual method for the invasion mission on Dr K is that only tankers and scrappers enter to take down the five portals. That has to be fun for folks sitting outside. |
If you don't like the current 'culture' on Victory when it comes to running certain TF's, why not work to change it? Put together your own TF teams with whatever composition you like.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Yes, that is fairly close to what I meant. (I doubt that a team full of controllers would "roll through" much of anything unless one was Kinetics. But they ought to be able to succeed at any task.)
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No, not really, we do not. There are several reasons. |
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
No, it's really not. There should be challenges in the game that require forethought, preparation and intelligent play. There is more than enough (too much, in my opinion) content that any random team can sail through with very little effort. We need more content that is challenging, not less.
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I don't want this game to start adding content for which "adequate preparation" means farming the inf to purchase large inspirations at the auction house, because that's what you need to come prepared. I've experienced this kind of raid preparation in other games. It's one of the reasons why I no longer play them.
I haven't farmed for Shivans or nukes much since i13 made all mezzes auto-hit regardless of magnitude in PvP zones. Retoggling your several toggles with a minor offensive output like RttC or AAO is a nuisance even if you aren't simply left waiting to die. I don't want any situations where I'm expected to bring them.
All such content disadvantages certain ATs, certain powersets, and certain combinations to some extent. Most scrappers can't fight Ghost Widow: bringing one just means that one of your DPS characters has to be sidelined on an archvillain fight, which explains the current situation regardless of how good they are elsewhere. Most controllers aren't allowed to use their pets on Ghost Widow, or for that matter on the first three rounds with Romulus. If masterminds are allowed to run hero TFs, they won't be wanted here either. This is already broken, broken, broken, and will become more obviously so come Going Rogue. I don't like the idea of content when some characters or ATs are forced to not use their signature powers or sit on their hands. That is not entertainment.
And, if other games' gimmick and challenge fights are any indication, the gimmicks and challenges usually make melee DPS classes the least desirable. Most of them feature tactics that require forced disengagement, or phases where only certain types of damage would work. These tactics tended to inherently prejudice melee characters and physical damage. I cannot recall a gimmick fight in another game that required melee damage. Others were essentially "progression" bottlenecks designed to test whether you had the gear you were supposed to have gotten from some previous and easier encounter. If more of that sort of thing is added to this game, expect tankers and scrappers to be further devalued.
I categorically do not want any crap like that in City of Heroes. Nothing would kill my interest in the game faster. I really hope that this Incarnate stuff is not an attempt to shoehorn this kind of grind into the game, because it really does not fit here. I have not found another game yet that I enjoy as much s this one, but if the Statesman TF is an indication of what the future holds, it may be time to move on.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Yes, they will. Jack Emmert to the contrary, failure and frustration are not what people are looking for when they play a superhero game. Anything that decreases the chance of success increases the chance of failure. Since Ghost Widow is a major roadblock in the STF, and a blaster helps more than any scrapper in getting past that roadblock, the scrapper will be told to bring another character.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
But reading this made me realize that just as in other MMOs people will devolve every challenge down into specific formulas of success (certain group mix, certain power choices, specific strategies) and anything else is deemed automatically a failure.
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Good lord, chicken little, anyone? This game is already ridiculously easy and some people want to trivialize the one remaining (somewhat) challenging task. Seriously, how much of this is a lrn2play problem, esp considering who's doing most of the crying?
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Damage...
Depending upon the team make up, you vary how you approach GW specifically.
In general terms though, by staying behind her (out of arc of the cones) the damage you bring generally outweighs any benefit she gets from healing off you. Ideally you get some +def and the tank is taunting from range, but thats not necessary.
The hardest time is if you lack a non-illusion controller, and can't lock her down in one spot reliably. its much harder to keep the DPS up and stay out of the cone arcs
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617