Non-Tanker toons that can actually hold aggro and taunt like a tank
By
Ben_Arizona,
Posted on: 2010-03-13 09:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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You know tanker taunt applies -range, right? Taunting will get outliers to come closer so their ranged attacks will reach, and if they have a mix of melee and ranged attacks they'll often decide to switch over once they're closer. Yes, it's a bad idea to taunt the same one over and over, but (no offense intended) I kind of suspect from your tone that you weren't actually paying attention to what's going on in all cases here and that may not have been quite what was happening.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
IT'S A RANGE-USING FOE -- IT'S NEVER GOING TO COME RUNNING TO YOU NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU TAUNT IT SO STOP TAUNTING IT AND DO SOMETHING USEFUL LIKE GOING OVER TO IT AND HITTING IT!!
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Originally Posted by Rodion
However, I've never seen a sniper move in response to a taunt (Nemesis and Crey have snipers). They will stand there all alone while the rest of the spawn closes to melee range.
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
But I couldn't keep the enemy tightly in one place that easily.
If they were melee types and I took the alpha, I'd be fine, they bunch around me, but I couldnt stop CoT mages or Council running off and attacking from range. Repulsion Bomb was the best I had for that - mass knockdown every 15 seconds or so. Was I tanking? |
To me, what distinguishes tanker enemy control from just debuffing or mezzing the enemies into uselessness is that the tanker is able to control enemy position as well as reduce the incoming attacks. Yes, a couple of blasters can incinerate spawns that are nice enough to stand in tidy little clumps when you get there, but some enemies aren't that polite without some encouragement. Some stormies can do this by careful pushing instead of pulling, and I'm sure a very careful FF could do it that way too, but my relatively limited experience is that the ratio of those who can actually do this quickly and consistently to those who say they can do it is higher with people using pull-focused methods than with people using managed knockback alone to try this.
As far as that goes, I've seen some people do very well at pull-focused enemy control who weren't playing tankers, but all else being equal (in terms of IO investment, number of power picks available, etc) the tanker will do better at it than other ATs simply because it's one of the main things they were designed for. Yes, a blaster can be made to do it, but given the same investment the tanker will simply be better at attracting and surviving enemy attention because they are given the best tools in the game for it as basic staples of their AT.
I will reiterate this because I'm sure someone will decide to harp on that: By "pull-focused control" I don't mean saying "pulling to here, everyone stand way back", then going in, running around all over the room for half a minute, and then charging back down a long hallway to bring a group into firing range. What I mean is using a combination of seized aggro and terrain (usually crates or pillars near the enemies) to control enemy positions for better AoE.
tl;dr: Blasters can certainly wreck packed groups without a tanker's help; tankers can turn spread-out enemies into packed groups without having to say "wait five minutes while I herd 'em up". If you can do that even while the blasters have opened fire then congratulations, you're tanking well enough for most of the game.
A well played Dark/Dark (D3) probably would also qualify as being close to Tanking.
While the D3 is impressive, but Aggro taunted on a Tank will never hit an opponent and is more absolute a defense for the Team than the Dark - to Hit.
Tanks are not perfect at what they do. I don't think any tank would say they are.
That said, Tanks are not easy to play and better Tank players are much better at grouping mobs and should be doing more than just Taunting.
Tanks are of course the best at tanking, since they have Gauntlet, very strong taunts, and tons of health and mitigation to survive all that aggro.
Scrappers can tank quite well with the right build. They need a good taunt aura and/or a lot of AoE damage plus enough mitigation to survive the aggro. Ideally they'd also want a taunt power to help with mobs outside melee range.
Defenders can also be built to tank, mainly by having decent defense and debuffing the mobs into helplessness (which also draws a lot of aggro). Some can also just make the rest of the team so hard to kill you don't need a tank, but that's not really the same thing. Also, Defenders don't have the level of aggro control and mob positioning a Tanker or Scrapper does (except maybe Storm Defenders blowing mobs into a corner).
Illusion Controllers with perma-PA can tank things that would kill even a fully IOed Stone Tank in Granite, but they also lack the ability to position mobs since they cannot directly control the pets that are holding aggro. Likewise, they have more trouble getting a specific enemy (that's too tough to just hold or mez) that goes after a squishy teammate under control since they can't (usually) survive much personal aggro and they can't direct the pets to hit a specific target. Some other Controllers can pretty much keep things from attacking, but that's not the same as rounding them up and tanking them.
Blasters can't tank without popping a ton of inspirations, in which case they just do a ton of damage and draw massive aggro (kind of like normal play, only they live longer 
), but they aren't really able to do general tanking. A softcapped S/L build could probably tank things that do mostly S/L damage with no defense debuffs without inspirations, but not as well as a Scrapper and the Blaster would have a much narrower range of mobs he could handle.
Kheldians have Dwarf Form, which seems similar to Scrappers in tanking ability.
Redside, Corruptors can do pseudo-tanking like Defenders and I suppose Dominators can sort of "tank", though it would be more a matter of locking mobs down so they wouldn't be able to position them as well. Brutes are pretty much squishier tanks with more damage and a bit less taunt, so they can do almost anything a Tanker can plus actually kill stuff. Stalkers seem a bit squishy to tank things, since they have Scrapper defense with less AoE and fewer HP. There are probably builds that can do it, but a Scrapper will do it better. Some Masterminds can tank extremely well (Bots / FF and Bots / Traps especially) but they do lack the mob positioning ability of a Tanker or Scrapper. VEATS... I have no idea since I don't play them and rarely team with them, but I'd think Bane Spiders might be able to tank about as well as a Scrapper just based on powers.
Really, a lot depends on what you mean by "tanking"... if you only care about holding aggro and surviving then lots of ATs can do it, especially with buffs. To me, tanking means not only holding aggro, but also keeping the enemies clustered up in the specific area where you want them. That's hard to do without good taunts or the ability to physically move the mobs (which is why Stormies can tank well if built for survival), but if you can pull it off you can really speed up the time to defeat a group while minimizing the chance of aggroing other groups nearby.
Then again, there's something to be said for just making an all-Defender team, hitting the damage, resist, and defense caps on everyone, and just annihilating every spawn you see in a couple of seconds... 
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1.-Locking down a spawn isn't tanking.
2.-Debuffing a spawn's tohit into the floor isn't tanking.
3.-Surviving the alpha and then keeping the aggro on you (usually through Taunt, Gauntlet, Provoke or a taunting aura), and off your squishier teammates IS tanking
All 3 are different methods that lead to the same results, but still shouldn't be confused.
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I think after six years of playing almost exclusively on PuGs, I've paid enough attention. |
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
You know tanker taunt applies -range, right? Taunting will get outliers to come closer so their ranged attacks will reach, and if they have a mix of melee and ranged attacks they'll often decide to switch over once they're closer. Yes, it's a bad idea to taunt the same one over and over, but (no offense intended) I kind of suspect from your tone that you weren't actually paying attention to what's going on in all cases here and that may not have been quite what was happening.
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And you do know that the -range debuff attached to Taunt is relatively recent, no?
And as the actual words I typed explicitly referenced, I am indeed talking about those Tankers that keep Taunting the same ranged toon that's not switching over to melee.
But, to the general thread: Here is a video of how a D3 can herd a group into debuffed insignifcance. If a team would wait for me to round them up like they would for a Tanker to herd, then it would be the same result. As you watch the video, remember, I'm a single Defender with an aggro cap full of foes gunning for me. I have their full attention. If there were some blasters on the team, that spawn would be gone in 3 seconds instead of 15.
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This. When my scrapper was keeping the AV's attention solely on her as the team attacked it. That was tanking.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
1.-Locking down a spawn isn't tanking.
2.-Debuffing a spawn's tohit into the floor isn't tanking. 3.-Surviving the alpha and then keeping the aggro on you (usually through Taunt, Gauntlet, Provoke or a taunting aura), and off your squishier teammates IS tanking All 3 are different methods that lead to the same results, but still shouldn't be confused. |
Mind you, my scrapper had confront (it looks so pretty with Katana), so I was able to keep the AVs attention solely on me, and was all giggles when all it did was attack my scrapper.
That is tanking.
I've never seen anyone without taunting ability keep the attention of enemies SOLELY on them. Never. And I've even seen an AVs attention pulled away from them, if all they're using is taunt aura and punches (possibly even using taunt, but not sure on that one).
Now, can all ATs/Toons, be made to take and survive the alpha? Yup! But actual tanking? Nope.
Of course, no matter how much attention one toon has, people have to remember, having aggro doesn't protect the team from AOE damage
Silly players thinking it does. heh
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It does if you stay away from the Tank. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Of course, no matter how much attention one toon has, people have to remember, having aggro doesn't protect the team from AOE damage
Silly players thinking it does. heh |
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I couldn't fit in Taunt, since I needed Fighting, Leaping and Leadership to boost my Defence, and Fitness to keep it all running.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
I have a feeling you were pretty close to actually replacing a Tank. Were you able to take taunt? The added defense you were giving everyone else through your bubbles was also probably replacing the taunt a bit.
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To be honest, I never intended to replace a tank in that level of detail, more to provide something new. The Defence bubbles on the team did pretty much make taunt redundant in its primary purpose, which is keeping the team safe.
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After six years of playing almost exclusively on PuGs, you should be aware of how many people on PuGs, even with plenty of vet badges, aren't paying attention. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I think after six years of playing almost exclusively on PuGs, I've paid enough attention.
And you do know that the -range debuff attached to Taunt is relatively recent, no? And as the actual words I typed explicitly referenced, I am indeed talking about those Tankers that keep Taunting the same ranged toon that's not switching over to melee. |
I am aware that the -range has not always been on Taunt, but since this thread is taking place today about how one tanks (with whatever AT) today, I don't see the relevance of complaining about what Taunt did not used to do.
As far as taunting one target over and over, sometimes there are reasons to do this (AVs, or if you don't want to lead your swarm of "buddies" over to where the target is but at the same time it's something you don't want getting at the squishies). Sometimes, perhaps most of the time, it is a bad decision. As far as "the actual words you typed", sometimes (prepare for a shock here) people on the internet engage in hyperbole and when they see someone in a PUG make a mistake proceed to post on the boards about how idiot tankers do that one thing all the damned time.
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| But, to the general thread: Here is a video of how a D3 can herd a group into debuffed insignifcance. If a team would wait for me to round them up like they would for a Tanker to herd, then it would be the same result. As you watch the video, remember, I'm a single Defender with an aggro cap full of foes gunning for me. I have their full attention. If there were some blasters on the team, that spawn would be gone in 3 seconds instead of 15. |
A group of blasters could indeed have cleared them faster than you could group them - but that is a group of equal-level enemies who started fairly well packed together, on a map that's not especially amenable to quick grouping.
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Indeed it does!
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Mind you, my scrapper had confront (it looks so pretty with Katana),
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There are a few things in here that I'd like to comment on:
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Nothing aggravates me more than watching a Tanker standing in one spot Taunting a range-using foe over and over again with that range-using foe continuing to stand far away because...
IT'S A RANGE-USING FOE -- IT'S NEVER GOING TO COME RUNNING TO YOU NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU TAUNT IT SO STOP TAUNTING IT AND DO SOMETHING USEFUL LIKE GOING OVER TO IT AND HITTING IT!! |
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I think after six years of playing almost exclusively on PuGs, I've paid enough attention.
And you do know that the -range debuff attached to Taunt is relatively recent, no? And as the actual words I typed explicitly referenced, I am indeed talking about those Tankers that keep Taunting the same ranged toon that's not switching over to melee. |
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
If you want a tightly packed herd, my Dark Defender can do that better than any Tanker with an AoE debuff anchor and Tar Patch and then either hiding or backing out far enough. Even the ranged-shooting foes will run into the patch.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
But, to the general thread: Here is a video of how a D3 can herd a group into debuffed insignifcance. If a team would wait for me to round them up like they would for a Tanker to herd, then it would be the same result. As you watch the video, remember, I'm a single Defender with an aggro cap full of foes gunning for me. I have their full attention. If there were some blasters on the team, that spawn would be gone in 3 seconds instead of 15.
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I also object to the use of "any." I'm very leery of the term because it means "there is no exception." While you may do a better job at keeping the team than PUG Tankers, I don't agree that you'd be better than "any Tanker." That's a bold statement. (No offense meant to your skills, mind you.)
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Now, while herding a spawn into a tightly pack group on a Tar Patch won't satisfy the usual whine of "That's not Tanking because you're not locking down aggro and I might actually take some damage so therefore, you're useless to me!", I can also throw about 100% -ToHit on that tightly packed group and Immobilize them so that it's unlikely they'll ever hit you or run up to you, and if they do, I got that covered with -Damage and a powerful AoE Heal.
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Note, I have a Dark/Rad/Dark Defender and a Dark/Rad/Soul Corruptor, so I'm familiar with the sets you're using and not speaking from ignorance. Don't get me wrong, they're great sets and can provide great team survivability. I'm not doubting that at all. I just wouldn't call it tanking.
Yeah, my Earth/Storm Controller can debuff or mitigate damage like crazy, but I would not call him a tank. He can't handle much incoming damage that hits him, and can only do so much for his team if the debuffs aren't enough.
I'll shout out again for Kheldians being able to tank (along with Brutes and Scrappers). I do wish the Dwarf Taunt was autohit, since tanking an AV like Nosferatu is just a pain... I had a hard enough time hitting him with my normal attacks, let alone taunt, and he would peel off and take a swing at a squishy far too often.
Still, my PB in Dwarf form was able to take aggro from Tanks that were on the team last night. This was partially because I came in first and used my Taunt power... hitting the mob first goes a long way toward maintaining aggro.
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Thats playing a defender, v good, tanking is something different "in this game" as in this game Tankers have different flexibilities to those in other games.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
But, to the general thread: Here is a video of how a D3 can herd a group into debuffed insignifcance. If a team would wait for me to round them up like they would for a Tanker to herd, then it would be the same result. As you watch the video, remember, I'm a single Defender with an aggro cap full of foes gunning for me. I have their full attention. If there were some blasters on the team, that spawn would be gone in 3 seconds instead of 15.
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Edit: I would of done that defendering different fai.
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In terms of taking the damage, I would say the order from best to worst would be:
Tanker
Tankermind
Brute
Dwarf Form Kheldian
Tanking Defender/Crab Spider
Scrapper
In terms of holding the aggro, I would say the order would be:
Tanker
Brute
Dwarf Form Kheldian
Scrapper
Tankermind
Tanking Defender/Crab Spider
YMMV. (For one thing, I think I'm underestimating the resiliance of a Dwarf Form Kheldian compared to a Brute. Then again, the Kheldian will probably not be in Dwarf form 100% of the time)
I would have said "Tanking Defender/Corruptor", however, it's less likely the Corruptor would be built for tanking instead of dealing damage. The Corruptor would not be quite as good at it because of the lower buff/debuff mods, but could make up for that with a specifically tanking build. Same goes for Controllers.
I have one brute built for tanking, with Taunt. All things considered, I'd rather tank on a tanker than a brute, though.
I have several scrappers that are quite serviceable tanks, even if none of them have Provoke. My spines/willpower scrapper is a quite serviceable tank. Even if the taunt aura in Willpower is weak, it doesn't affect that character. My electric/shield scrapper is also quite capable of tanking, and has tanked master runs of the ITF successfully, and the Kahn TF (wasn't her that died).
A scrapper or brute needs a taunt aura to tank successfully; Invulnerability, Shields, Fire, Dark, and Electric all fit the bill, although Regen and Reflexes aren't going to help, and Willpower probably belongs with them unless you combine it with an AoE oriented primary.
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Those 3 don't have a taunt component in their auras for Scrappers, sadly.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
A scrapper or brute needs a taunt aura to tank successfully; Invulnerability, Shields, Fire, Dark, and Electric all fit the bill
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On the other hand, they all do damage, and many do debuff on top of that. This will hold aggro long enough, usually.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
Those 3 don't have a taunt component in their auras for Scrappers, sadly.
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Quite the contrary actually, they tend to cause a lot of scatter (Lightning Field being the biggest offender), which is the exact opposite of holding aggro |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
On the other hand, they all do damage, and many do debuff on top of that. This will hold aggro long enough, usually.
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While I don't know if I agree on the scatter per se, I have to agree on the not holding aggro.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Quite the contrary actually, they tend to cause a lot of scatter (Lightning Field being the biggest offender), which is the exact opposite of holding aggro
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The scrapper, assuming it's the first to jump in attacking the AV non stop, damage aura going, just doesn't hold the AVs attention.
The AV will attack someone else.
This isn't to say the Scrapper won't get the AVs attention back, it's just that the AV will go after someone else long enough that the AV won't be aggro'ed on the scrapper all the time.
Now, put in confront, this will change.
But I've never, ever, seen a scrapper hold aggro long enough to call it tanking without use of confront for single targets, or Presense (if they take it) for the spawns.
However, for spawns in general, scrappers can jump in, take the alpha, and with enough AOE on the scrapper side, and the rest of the team, they only have to hold aggro for just those few seconds, and the spawn is cleared anyways, so it's not as big of a deal.
But for the serious targets, yeah. A scrapper just going in and attacking, even with a taunt in their aura, I've never seen as enough to actually hold aggro like someone with an actual taunt ability.
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They can do it just fine if they're /Invuln or /SD (which do have a decent taunt aura), but damage auras from Fire, Dark and Elec actually trigger mob grief AI and they start running the heck away, arms flailing. It's especially bad if combined with Quills.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
But I've never, ever, seen a scrapper hold aggro long enough to call it tanking without use of confront for single targets, or Presense (if they take it) for the spawns.
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Isn't it amazing how quickly this turned into an argument on semantics when the exact criteria listed for what "Tanking" meant in regards to the thread is listed in the OP? Essentially it means, "ability to herd".
If you don't agree with their definition, that's nice. But that's the one provided in the context of this discussion, so if you don't like it you can take your purely subjective definition elsewhere (because the whole definition of "Tanking" is subjective - there is no objective definition of a term that means so many different things based on context).
And for what it's worth, a Tanker "tanking" does not mean that nobody else is going to take damage; there are plenty of AoE attacks that will hit anyone nearby, and they can sit there and spam Taunt all day and if they don't do something else my Blaster can, has, and will still pull aggro off of them.
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Versus archvillain/hero class enemies, not even a tanker can rely on a taunt/damage aura. The taunt effects on an aura are not autohit; they have to make a to hit check at a -20% penalty to affect an AV.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
While I don't know if I agree on the scatter per se, I have to agree on the not holding aggro.
The scrapper, assuming it's the first to jump in attacking the AV non stop, damage aura going, just doesn't hold the AVs attention. |
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The auto-hit slow in Hot Feet, as well as its large radius, makes Fire Control and Fire Manipulation into excellent holders of aggro. The high level of damage those characters can often deal out helps a bunch too.
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What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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However, I've never seen a sniper move in response to a taunt (Nemesis and Crey have snipers). They will stand there all alone while the rest of the spawn closes to melee range.
Any experienced tanker knows a number of techniques to gather up mobs, even ranged mobs can be gathered in tight if a tank knows what he's doing. Taunt does come in quite handy, particularly since the -range debuff was added a while back.
All that said there's lots of builds that can broadly fill the role of "tanking", or preventing the team from taking crippling damage. They just do it in different ways than the classic tanking situation. My Dark/Dark defender can fill that role by cowering an entire room with Fearsome Stare and debuffing the tohit of all the mobs low enough that they're unlikely to land enough attacks to seriously affect the team. Is that tanking? It serves the purpose, but it does it in a completely different fashion.
We can argue semantics all day long but the bottom line is "Are you keeping the team safe?" If you define it broadly enough then I suppose you can call it tanking.
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