The Earth Controller challenge


Ademia

 

Posted

Earth control is known to be one of the best control primary when it comes to hard and soft control. However, while it is known to be an excellent team choice, it is also known to be lacking when it comes to solo play.

We would generally think that's because of its highly resisted damage output.

This is where I beg to differ. This is true that smashing damage is widely resisted. However, the Animated stone upgrade that happenned a year and a half to two years ago, made it one of best pet in this game. Its DPS is now pretty good and it is quite a resilient pet.

So here's the challenge: To make the Best Earth Controller AV and GM soloer.

Now, the rules:

1) You can use any secondary you like. In fact, one of the purpose of this thread is to find out what is the best secondary to make The Best Earth Controller AV and GM Soloer.

2) You can IOd as you wish. To know the most effective build would be an other purpose of this thread

3) You can use inspirations. They can be part of the strategy. AV fights can last a long time, so you have to use them wisely anyway.

4) Of course, day job buffs cannot be shut down, so using them could help.

5) The only "temps weapon" allowed are Veteran powers, since they end up being part of the usual attack chain and they have a big end cost that can be a backdraw when soloing AV and GM anyway, and the Supergroup Empowerment buffs. The other temp weapons, especially the Shivans, the Warwolves and the nukes are not allowed. They can have too much of an effect on the outcome of the fight. This would not be fair.

6) No buffs from other player. This would not be considered soloing anyway.

7) We are talking about same level AV. So, if you are lvl 50, you fight the lvl 50 version of the AV. So that mean you fight a lvl 45 Clockwork King exemp at level 45.

In this thread, we would like to know what you achieve: what AV and GM you soloed. You can put your AV killer build. You can suggest strategies related to AV soloing, give other tricks, etc.

I will start.

With my Earth/Rad, I have been able to solo the folowing Giant Monsters: Eochai, Paladin, Kraken, Baddage and Adamastor. Unfortunatly, Jack in Irons plays golf with stoney so he is a no go for me, for now. I have not yet found a way to defeat solo the Devouring Earth GMs, including Jurassik: their damage output is too high on Stonney for me to be able to compensate with Radiant Aura. As far as AV, I was able to solo the Clockwork King, Malaise, Mother Mayhem and Nightstar. Malaise and Mother mahem are easy, since they don't damage much Animated Stone. The Clockwork King was more challenging, because he tends to run away and to change target often. Nightstar is a long, long fight. She do resist smashing a lot. It took me 45 minutes to defeat her.

I haven't tried all the high level AVs, but I do see the limit of the Radiation secondary: The heal, many times, cannot compensate the damage output of many AVs and GMs on Animated Stone. If LR miss, you can waste a lot of time, because the AV or GM regen with kick back. It is only effective if you slot heavily on recharge reduction enhancements and set bonuses.

Here's the build:

+----------------------------------------------------------------
+ Built with SuckerPunch's Online Planner v5.0
+ http://planner.cohtitan.com/planner
+----------------------------------------------------------------
Archetype: Controller
Primary: Earth Control
Secondary: Radiation Emission
+----------------------------------------------------------------

01: Radiant Aura => Doctored_Wounds(1), Doctored_Wounds(3), Doctored_Wounds(3), Doctored_Wounds(5), Doctored_Wounds(5), Doctored_Wounds(7)
01: Fossilize => Endoplasm_Exposure(1), Endoplasm_Exposure(7), Peroxisome_Exposure(9), Thunderstrike(9), Thunderstrike(11), Recharge(11)
02: Radiation Infection => Enzyme_Exposure(2), Enzyme_Exposure(13), Debuff_ToHit(13)
04: Accelerate Metabolism => Efficacy_Adaptor(4), Efficacy_Adaptor(15), Efficacy_Adaptor(15), Recharge(17), Recharge(17)
06: Quicksand => Tempered_Readiness(6)
08: Combat Jumping => Karma(8), Luck_of_the_Gambler(19)
10: Hurdle => Jump(10)
12: Stalagmites => Absolute_Amazement(12), Absolute_Amazement(19), Absolute_Amazement(21), Absolute_Amazement(21), Absolute_Amazement(23), Rope_A_Dope(23)
14: Super Jump => Jump(14)
16: Health => Miracle(16), Numinas_Convalesence(25)
18: Earthquake => Dark_Watchers_Despair(18), Dark_Watchers_Despair(25), Dark_Watchers_Despair(27), Dark_Watchers_Despair(27), Recharge(29), Recharge(29)
20: Stamina => Recovery(20), Recovery(31), Recovery(31)
22: Lingering Radiation => Accuracy(22), EnduranceDiscount(31), EnduranceDiscount(33), EnduranceDiscount(33)
24: Assault => EnduranceDiscount(24)
26: Volcanic Gasses => Unbreakable_Constraint(26), Unbreakable_Constraint(33), Unbreakable_Constraint(34), Unbreakable_Constraint(34), Unbreakable_Constraint(34), Ghost_Widows_Embrace(36)
28: Tactics => Adjusted_Targeting(28), Adjusted_Targeting(36), Adjusted_Targeting(36), Adjusted_Targeting(37), Adjusted_Targeting(37)
30: Enervating Field => EnduranceDiscount(30), EnduranceDiscount(37), EnduranceDiscount(39)
32: Animate Stone => Nucleolus_Exposure(32), Expedient_Reinforcement(39), Expedient_Reinforcement(39), Expedient_Reinforcement(40), Expedient_Reinforcement(40), Sovereign_Right(40)
35: Stone Cages => Gravitational_Anchor(35), Gravitational_Anchor(42), Gravitational_Anchor(42), Gravitational_Anchor(42), Gravitational_Anchor(43), Damage(43)
38: EM Pulse => Gladiators_Net(38), Gladiators_Net(43), Gladiators_Net(45), Gladiators_Net(45), Gladiators_Net(45)
41: Indomitable Will => Luck_of_the_Gambler(41), Luck_of_the_Gambler(46), Karma(46), Recharge(46), Recharge(48), Recharge(48)
44: Mind Over Body => Ribosome_Exposure(44)
47: Salt Crystals => Fortunata_Hypnosis(47), Fortunata_Hypnosis(48), Fortunata_Hypnosis(50), Fortunata_Hypnosis(50), Fortunata_Hypnosis(50)
49: Maneuvers => Luck_of_the_Gambler(49)

+----------------------------------------------------------------
+ Inherent Powers
+----------------------------------------------------------------

01: Brawl => Empty(1)
01: Sprint => Empty(1)
02: Rest => Empty(2)


Right now, I'm trying with my Earth/Kin to solo some GMs. It is not yet fully IOd, like my earth/Rad. So far, I can see that I can compensate more easily for the GM damage output. However, Maybe I was expecting too much from the -Regeneration of transfusion and the damage boost of Fulcrum Shift and Siphon power, but it seems I can't dent them yet.

I'm leveling a Earth/Thermal, but I have little hope because of the lack or +recovery. I hope I'm wrong.


Pinnacle:
Lynx Nordique: lvl50 Claws/Regen Scrapper, Physique 101: lvl50 Kin/Nrg Defender
Freedom:
Feu Radieux: lvl50 Fire/Rad Controller, Rocheuse: lvl50 Earth/Rad controller, Madame Kyoto: lvl50 Katana/Regen scrapper, Hivernale: lvl50 Ice/Kin Controller, Leve du Jour: lvl50 Earth/Kin controller

 

Posted

you must be really good. maybe my earth/TA will be as good as yours


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_Nordique View Post
I'm leveling a Earth/Thermal, but I have little hope because of the lack or +recovery. I hope I'm wrong.
Doesn't heat exhaustion cover that?


 

Posted

Im scratching my head and trying to figure out why anyone would say Earth Control is lacking or weak in any way.

I have a Earth/Sonic Controller, and a Earth/Earth Dominator, and they dont lack a thing.

Its prolly the same people that use Mids and forget that its a imperfect program that lies more then anything.

Ahh well, Flame on!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowraithe View Post
Doesn't heat exhaustion cover that?
No. Heat exhaustion is a foe debuff. It would still be a key power of the Thermal secondary against AV, since it debuffs damage and regeneration. It also debuffs the foes recovery, but AV recovery is to high to be efficently counter.

In fact, thermal could be considered for soloing AV partly because of Heat exhaustion, since it has a -regen component. To win solo against AV, you either need to greatly debuff the regen or be able to output a huge amount of damage constantly. The option of debuffing the Regen is probably wiser for Eath controllers...

The other reasons to consider Thermal as a possible option are because you can make Stonney harder to kill with the shields, buff his damage and recharge and heal fast enough the damage he is taking.

However, when a fight can last several minutes, many times, the controller and the pet end recovery is something to consider and this is where Thermal is lacking

But, maybe by using several blue inspirations and recasting Stonney often, when he is out of end, could do the trick. I haven't tried yet.


Pinnacle:
Lynx Nordique: lvl50 Claws/Regen Scrapper, Physique 101: lvl50 Kin/Nrg Defender
Freedom:
Feu Radieux: lvl50 Fire/Rad Controller, Rocheuse: lvl50 Earth/Rad controller, Madame Kyoto: lvl50 Katana/Regen scrapper, Hivernale: lvl50 Ice/Kin Controller, Leve du Jour: lvl50 Earth/Kin controller

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded View Post
Im scratching my head and trying to figure out why anyone would say Earth Control is lacking or weak in any way.

I have a Earth/Sonic Controller, and a Earth/Earth Dominator, and they dont lack a thing.

Its prolly the same people that use Mids and forget that its a imperfect program that lies more then anything.

Ahh well, Flame on!
Because it does significantly less damage than some of the other primaries such as Ill/Mind/Fire.

Also. You're bad at this game.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_Nordique View Post
Right now, I'm trying with my Earth/Kin to solo some GMs. It is not yet fully IOd, like my earth/Rad. So far, I can see that I can compensate more easily for the GM damage output. However, Maybe I was expecting too much from the -Regeneration of transfusion and the damage boost of Fulcrum Shift and Siphon power, but it seems I can't dent them yet.

I'm leveling a Earth/Thermal, but I have little hope because of the lack or +recovery. I hope I'm wrong.
I'm curious as to how a Earth/Cold with Aid Other would fair. With Cold's shields and Arctic Air you could beef up his defense a bit and top off his resistance to cold/fire/energy. His weak point in smashing/lethal would still be open though. However, Cold does have a regen debuff comparable to Therm's and can help with endurance maintenance with Heat Loss. Heck, maybe Frostwork could even be handy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Lith_ View Post
Because it does significantly less damage than some of the other primaries such as Ill/Mind/Fire.
This is often stated though I've always felt it applied more to AoE damage. Illusion pets attack more targets, Mind has a decent AoE attack with Terrify, and Fire is simply damage focused. When it comes time to focus on a single tough target, I'm not surprised to find that Stony contributes a good bit of damage, more so than what you would get with Levitate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded View Post
Its prolly the same people that use Mids and forget that its a imperfect program that lies more then anything.
I propose that if you're going to continue to make this argument you should perhaps document the errors present within Mid's and post them. There are occasionally errors, but the team working on it does a fine job correcting them when they are informed. Please put some substance to your claim.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
Wrong, Earth has been known to beat Mind and Ill in some cases.

Guide to Controller Damage Vs 1 Target

WarTroller Single Target Damage Testing Videos
In real play Earth doesn't come close to Illusion for damage. The testing with Illusion is distorted by the fact that no additional pool power (such as Air Superiority) was added to give it a proper attack chain and a decision not to use PA.


L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR

Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded View Post
Im scratching my head and trying to figure out why anyone would say Earth Control is lacking or weak in any way.

I have a Earth/Sonic Controller, and a Earth/Earth Dominator, and they dont lack a thing.

Its prolly the same people that use Mids and forget that its a imperfect program that lies more then anything.

Ahh well, Flame on!
Earth has a lot of control powers but they do little damage and the mitigation from them is good but not great.
Generally it's great for teaming as you're able to mitigate damage from multiple mobs but from a solo perspective the lack of damage can be a problem.
Once you get Stoney though this does change.


L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR

Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller

 

Posted

Earth is an extremely low damage set. You probably could beat an epic boss, but only after you have the pet and some epic attacks. An AV might be doable with a way out there build, but it's not really the sets strength. I would put my bets on Earth/Therm/Fire, or Earth/Rad/Fire but it would still take a lot of effort.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Earth is an extremely low damage set. You probably could beat an epic boss, but only after you have the pet and some epic attacks. An AV might be doable with a way out there build, but it's not really the sets strength. I would put my bets on Earth/Therm/Fire, or Earth/Rad/Fire but it would still take a lot of effort.
Well, I have done it (Earth/Rad/Psi) and I don't even have any epic attack or pool power attack (See my build listed in the 1st post). So it "might" not just be possible, it IS possible.

Also, I'm staying out of melee range, so the only Veteran power I used occasionally was the Nemesis staff. And I didn't use the staff constantly because it is an end hog.

Most of the damages were done with Animated stone and Fossilize.

Anyway, this is why I created theis thread; so that people can share their experience soloing AV with an Earth Controller.


Pinnacle:
Lynx Nordique: lvl50 Claws/Regen Scrapper, Physique 101: lvl50 Kin/Nrg Defender
Freedom:
Feu Radieux: lvl50 Fire/Rad Controller, Rocheuse: lvl50 Earth/Rad controller, Madame Kyoto: lvl50 Katana/Regen scrapper, Hivernale: lvl50 Ice/Kin Controller, Leve du Jour: lvl50 Earth/Kin controller

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
your test are old and outdated, they seem to be the time when hasten effected pet recharge. So alot of that is moot now maybe you should go back and change it.
They aren't my test. If you look at the results you will see samples where Hasten isn't used.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
They aren't my test. If you look at the results you will see samples where Hasten isn't used.
not your test fair enough. But hasten should still be used it should just be taken out of the calculations for pet recharge because it skews the results. Hasten still is good damage booster for other attacks cause they come up faster.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded View Post
Its prolly the same people that use Mids and forget that its a imperfect program that lies more then anything.
Another one hit wonder from Fire Minded- the mids, IO, and math hater.


Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.

"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_Nordique View Post
Well, I have done it (Earth/Rad/Psi) and I don't even have any epic attack or pool power attack (See my build listed in the 1st post). So it "might" not just be possible, it IS possible.

Also, I'm staying out of melee range, so the only Veteran power I used occasionally was the Nemesis staff. And I didn't use the staff constantly because it is an end hog.

Most of the damages were done with Animated stone and Fossilize.

Anyway, this is why I created theis thread; so that people can share their experience soloing AV with an Earth Controller.

I'm not surprised that it's been done. I do think it's still not one of Earth's strengths. A challenge, yes.

I want to say one thing though, and I hope it doesn't come across as too dismissive. AVs are mostly soloable because of the strange way they are designed. Soloing an AV is simply a matter of having some decent attack strength, good defense or a pet with good defense, some heals and endurance replenishers, and (especially) a -regen power. I don't consider it strictly "challenging" because the deck is heavily loaded in favor of a very few powersets. It's interesting that it can be done, but IMO more an indication of some seriously broken mechanics than a demonstration of the power of a build.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psiphon View Post
In real play Earth doesn't come close to Illusion for damage. The testing with Illusion is distorted by the fact that no additional pool power (such as Air Superiority) was added to give it a proper attack chain and a decision not to use PA.
The intent of the test seemed to be how much damage each primary can provide. Illusion's lack of a single target chain can be considered one of the weaknesses of the set. If it were allowed for Illusion then it would be necessary to allow it for other sets as well. In many cases, it could replace either the immobilize or hold, resulting in a faster attack chain and higher dps. When you view it in the vacuum of primary powers only, it only underlines Illusion's need of supplemental single target damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
not your test fair enough. But hasten should still be used it should just be taken out of the calculations for pet recharge because it skews the results. Hasten still is good damage booster for other attacks cause they come up faster.
I understand your objection to MagicJ's test, but they were accurate for the time they were made. A new set of tests is indeed in order due to changes in how pets inherit recharge. When the test server eventually becomes available, I'll make up an AE arc and run through the controller pets to find out how each fairs in terms of single target damage.


 

Posted

It's probably too early in the morning for me, and my Internet is too slow to watch the videos, but I don't understand the tests. Did he just create a bunch of Controller characters, go to town on a boss, and record how long it took? How many times is each run repeated?

There are tons of variables involved in a test like this. You'd have to run it many times before you could call your results demonstrative.

Furthermore, you would need to keep a log of every attack the pet made each trial, the order in which the attack occurred, how much time elapsed between each attack, and whether the enemy was able to retreat or somehow hinder the attackers at any point in time. The reason you have to do this is you have to show that pet AI consistently uses the same attacks in the same order at the same times. If you can't show that, you have to come up with a method of normalizing the damage (and will still get wobbly results).

You would also have to find some way to account for attacks that miss, since there is a 1 in 20 chance that any attack could miss at any time (Well, almost. It's more complicated because of the streak breaker but you get the idea.)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded View Post
Im scratching my head and trying to figure out why anyone would say Earth Control is lacking or weak in any way.

I have a Earth/Sonic Controller, and a Earth/Earth Dominator, and they dont lack a thing.

Its prolly the same people that use Mids and forget that its a imperfect program that lies more THAN anything.

Ahh well, Flame on!
(Caps Mine)

I disagree with both the position you posted regarding Mids …that it lies more then does anything and what I assume you meant to post that it lies more than anything else.

Still if you wouldn’t mind lending a hand in improving its purported shortcomings I’m sure that your assistance would be cheerfully accepted.


 

Posted

What about this build for Earth/Thermal? I put in Cold as the epic as I hope Hibernate for a few seconds should recover enough endurance to cope.

Code:
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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
It's probably too early in the morning for me, and my Internet is too slow to watch the videos, but I don't understand the tests. Did he just create a bunch of Controller characters, go to town on a boss, and record how long it took? How many times is each run repeated?

There are tons of variables involved in a test like this. You'd have to run it many times before you could call your results demonstrative.

Furthermore, you would need to keep a log of every attack the pet made each trial, the order in which the attack occurred, how much time elapsed between each attack, and whether the enemy was able to retreat or somehow hinder the attackers at any point in time. The reason you have to do this is you have to show that pet AI consistently uses the same attacks in the same order at the same times. If you can't show that, you have to come up with a method of normalizing the damage (and will still get wobbly results).

You would also have to find some way to account for attacks that miss, since there is a 1 in 20 chance that any attack could miss at any time (Well, almost. It's more complicated because of the streak breaker but you get the idea.)
I was pretty critical of these tests when they were done. I tried to point out the weaknesses -- especially in regards to Illusion. The way in which Magicj did the tests excluded any benefit from the Spectral Damage in Spectral Wounds or Phantom Army. The spectral damage contributes substantially to Illusion's damage if used properly. When I pointed out some of the problems, Magicj just dismissed my suggestions -- I think mainly because Magicj had frequently expressed dislike for the Illusion set.

Most of us know from experience that Fire does the most damage. It specializes in AoE, but when the three Imps focus on one target, that foe goes down pretty quickly. Plant probably comes next for AoE damage, but it is not strong for single targets. Gravity does good-but-slow single target damage, but is weak on AoE. Illusion does good single-target damage, especially when its pets are focused on one foe, and its four pets allows it to deal with multiple targets better than Gravity. Mind has good single target damage early, but doesn't get the "bump-up" in damage that other sets get from their pets. Earth and Ice are generally at the bottom of the controller damage list, with Earth barely higher than Ice.


LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Local_Man View Post
Earth and Ice are generally at the bottom of the controller damage list, with Earth barely higher than Ice.
So? Earth has the advantage of having a resilient pet that does decent damage. It is not perma PA, but with the right techniques and tactics, Stonney can last quite a bit, if not all the fight while fighting an AV.

What makes the Earth challenge interesting, is that it requires the toon to be multitask. You have to :
1)Find a what to get the AV health regen stopped or overwhelmed and make sure the debuff doing so is applied almost all the time. In a matter of seconds you can screw up several minutes of fighting;
2)Add damage on your own, so you don't rely exclusively on Animated stone for damage;
3) Keep Stonney alive because he is getting most of the attention. Just that means: a) Healing the pet, b)minimizing the incoming damages;
4) Find a way to boost the damage output of the primary attacks.

To say, Earth damage is "at the bottom" is kinda depressing. But to take an Earth controller and go defeat some AVs alone, that very few toons can defeat on their own, is kinda fun and rewarding, even if you have to faceplant many times and invest in expensive IOs.

Just look a fire control. It might be doing lots of damage on a single target, but refreshing the Imps often enough is a challenge too, since AVs do murder them very fast. And some found ways to solve that problem and defeat AVs alone.


Pinnacle:
Lynx Nordique: lvl50 Claws/Regen Scrapper, Physique 101: lvl50 Kin/Nrg Defender
Freedom:
Feu Radieux: lvl50 Fire/Rad Controller, Rocheuse: lvl50 Earth/Rad controller, Madame Kyoto: lvl50 Katana/Regen scrapper, Hivernale: lvl50 Ice/Kin Controller, Leve du Jour: lvl50 Earth/Kin controller

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Local_Man View Post
I was pretty critical of these tests when they were done. I tried to point out the weaknesses -- especially in regards to Illusion. The way in which Magicj did the tests excluded any benefit from the Spectral Damage in Spectral Wounds or Phantom Army. The spectral damage contributes substantially to Illusion's damage if used properly. When I pointed out some of the problems, Magicj just dismissed my suggestions -- I think mainly because Magicj had frequently expressed dislike for the Illusion set.

Most of us know from experience that Fire does the most damage. It specializes in AoE, but when the three Imps focus on one target, that foe goes down pretty quickly. Plant probably comes next for AoE damage, but it is not strong for single targets. Gravity does good-but-slow single target damage, but is weak on AoE. Illusion does good single-target damage, especially when its pets are focused on one foe, and its four pets allows it to deal with multiple targets better than Gravity. Mind has good single target damage early, but doesn't get the "bump-up" in damage that other sets get from their pets. Earth and Ice are generally at the bottom of the controller damage list, with Earth barely higher than Ice.

Yeah, I was particularly perplexed when he told you that your "unsubstantiated claims had no place in a testing document." What he was doing wasn't a test, or at least not a very good one. It was more like someone saying "this one time I beat a boss on my Earth guy faster than my Illusion guy." I suspect I could generate a similar damage "hierarchy" by just running the same character over and over.