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Let me try to explain how the hype comes in. Not that this is my interpretation of the justified hype, as opposed to any lingering hype from when Regen was wildly powerful because of toggle Instant Healing.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
I'm trying my first /regen and I have to say, I don't get the hype. I die far more than I have on my prior scraps, especially for late game (meaning 40+). Compared to most of you, I have a more "advanced age" and since regen seems to be about hitting a heal in the nick of time, I think I may simply have a slower reaction time. Regardless, my regen dies a lot. 80% of the time it seems to be while I click Spine Burst and have to wait for a) the attack activation and b) the heal firing off.
On the other hand, my other current scrap (/SD) is at the same level (mid 40s) and he's just a hoot. This is even pre-IOing out. |
Regen doesn't have the best mitigation, almost by definition. It mitigates almost nothing in the sense that most people use that word. Instead, as you've observed, it reacts, and fixes the damage after the fact. I'd say in general, people look at that in the context of a single fight and dislike that you may not have enough reactive tools to survive. Examples would be jumping in a pile of +4/x8 or against an AV - Regen's tools are strong, but if you have to spend them all too fast just to stay upright in a fight, it may be a sign you're probably never going to win.
However, any fight you can win, you come out basically smelling like a rose. The Regen set is rather binary - it's either fine or its dead. That's a long-standing joke on the forums and sometimes even in game, but it's very true. If a fight doesn't kill a Regen, they probably enter the very next fight very near their peak survival capability and endurance.
That makes Regen very, very strong at a "go, go, go" playstyle. The more +recharge, +resist and +defense you can layer on a Regen (usually Tough and Resilience are your only reasonable +resist options) the stronger this capability is, or the bigger a fight you can take on and still be ready for the next spawn.
You can approach this on any set with a good self heal and good recovery tools, and that's a reason people are listing Fiery Aura as well - it's got a bit of the same things going on with Healing Flames and Consume.
The only way to approach this on the more passive powersets is to actually have so much raw mitigation that you can jump in a big fight and take so little damage that your passive regen actually is sufficient to pick up the slack. That or you can pop a green and keep going (and presumably get another one next spawn to keep up the pace), or you can pick up the slack with a power like Siphon Life or Aid Self (one of the reasons that DM/* makes such tough Scrappers).
Unlike most of the sets that can hit that sort of raw average mitigation, Regen gets this "go, go, go" thing pretty early. It can play that way through most of its career, where some of these other powersets only really get to sample it pretty late or only with IOs.
So, like most powersets, it's good for certain things. I would say Regen is good for leveling, with WP and Fire as decent seconds. I haven't tried Scrapper Electric Armor; the relatively early availability of Energize might make it good too - I'm still steamed they left it fairly late in a Brute's selections.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
For PvP
1. Regeneration
2. Fire
3. SR
For PvE
1. Shields
2. SR and WP
3. Regeneration
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
I'll just go ahead and rank them from what I have sitting at 50.
2 Regens, 2 Inv, 1 SR, 1 SD, 1 FA and 1 WP
so...
1. Regen and Inv
2. SR, SD, FA and WP
3. DA and ElA
Don't judge me!!! 
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I find you...|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I'll just go ahead and rank them from what I have sitting at 50.
2 Regens, 2 Inv, 1 SR, 1 SD, 1 FA and 1 WP so... 1. Regen and Inv 2. SR, SD, FA and WP 3. DA and ElA Don't judge me!!! |
GUILTY!
(not sure of what yet, I'll let ya know)
wasn't me!!!
I didn't know /Inv did so well in PvE.
Do you need to take all the powers for it to be effective?
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You don't need every power, but there also aren't any bad powers. I'd take everything but Unstoppable, because I hate tier 9 crashes, but it's very effective while it's up. Some people skip one or two of the passives. They aren't so strong that you must take them, but they are strong enough that you may miss them.|
Originally Posted by Edgewater
I didn't know /Inv did so well in PvE.
Do you need to take all the powers for it to be effective? |
Edit: The devs buffed Invulnerability a while ago. Before that, the consensus seemed to be that it was the worst secondary, though not unplayably so. Just in the sense that SOME secondary needs to be at the bottom of the list. As I recall, some of the changes were ones that the forums had come to rough consensus on. The changes were small and cautious. They were also exactly what the set needed. The devs made it very competitive without changing the personality of the set or making it overpowered, except of course when dealing with its specialty, surviving large crowds of smashing/lethal enemies.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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And since a good portion of its survivability is given via defense, it benefits greatly from def bonuses from IO's.
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Originally Posted by Werner
You don't need every power, but there also aren't any bad powers. I'd take everything but Unstoppable, because I hate tier 9 crashes, but it's very effective while it's up. Some people skip one or two of the passives. They aren't so strong that you must take them, but they are strong enough that you may miss them.
Edit: The devs buffed Invulnerability a while ago. Before that, the consensus seemed to be that it was the worst secondary, though not unplayably so. Just in the sense that SOME secondary needs to be at the bottom of the list. As I recall, some of the changes were ones that the forums had come to rough consensus on. The changes were small and cautious. They were also exactly what the set needed. The devs made it very competitive without changing the personality of the set or making it overpowered, except of course when dealing with its specialty, surviving large crowds of smashing/lethal enemies. |
Invul also particularly benefited from the decision to merge damage typed +defense bonuses into pairs and then to associate every positional defense with a half-strength typed pair (and vice versa). This made it a lot more reasonable to slot to set bonuses that actually stack with damage-typed defense sets, like Invuln and Energy Armor.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Elec armor is alot better since the changes. And on a scrapper it is great with Physical Perfection. Though it really shines when matched up right.
My Dark Melee/Elec does so well. The only hard part about playing it is early on and that is only cause Dark melee takes forever to get you a good attack chain.
You got a healing attack that is part of you attack chain from your primary
Energize which is nice
And Health/Stamina + Physical Perf
Now for my end troubles I got Dark consumption
And Powersink
Now it may not be the best but I senergizes so well my jaw drops. It is my favorite scrapper of all time the only way to make it better is to be a brute. Which I am really temped with the only sucky part about brute no Physical perfection.
Oh okay I am finaly coming back around to my Claws/DA scrapper. I am able to play her again. DA is quite nice just not noob friendly. That was my first toon and man it was hard playing her back in the day. I need to rework her with sets in mind cause with just SO it can be painful to play.
I cannot possibly imagine why you would need all of Stamina, Dark Consumption, Power Sink and Physical Perfection.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Set bonuses! |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I cannot possibly imagine why you would need all of Stamina, Dark Consumption, Power Sink and Physical Perfection.
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Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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I can't imagine why you would need anything other than Power Sink, honestly. When you're getting back all of your endurance every 30 seconds, is there really anything else you need?
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I cannot possibly imagine why you would need all of Stamina, Dark Consumption, Power Sink and Physical Perfection.
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about the only one that really don't need is dark consumption. Like what he said Physical Perf is good for sets even more so healing sets. And yes power sink rocks funny enough I rarely have to use it other then draining the enemies end. The reason for stamina is never having to deal with end issues and sappers. Part of the reason I don't have end issues is energize.|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
Set bonuses!
Lewis |
I Tp into a mob take the alpha pop energize, soul drain, dark consuption then start my attack chain when i get about 1/2 way on end pop powersink. I probly should TP in pop power sink first then do everything else the same way. The only time I have trouble is when I miss with Siphon Life. That bread and butter attack also provides a nice heal.
For me it depends on what you're looking for on how to rank them. And even then, if you want GREAT offense with lots of defense. Or if you're just talking about survivability?
Assuming IOed out/Built for survival over insane amounts of DPS (which is harder to obtain with some combos than it is other...for instance it's easier to obtain high amount of +RCH for the DPS and softcapped Defenses on a SR, but the fact that it pretty much relies on just defense doesn't make it the strongest). Not to mention, Dark Melee as a Primary will help all sets survive even better, sue to Siphon Life, if they're softcapped already.
So, just in terms of Survivability (with IOs/Power Picks), with no thought of how much ST DPS can I dish out...
1) Willpower. Softcap it to S/L/E/N, topped with it's Resists (elemental resists arent all that, but the S/L/P resists are quite decent when Tough is added in), it's amazing Regen, it's +HP...just make for the most survivable toon in my experience. And it's tier 9 has such a small crash, when you are in danger, this will usually save you. It even has the resists to almost every exotic effect except for END DRAIN and Teleport. END DRAIN you can build to not even be a worry, and teleport can be found in a very expensive IO, not that it matters in PvE anyways.
2) Invulnerability. Much like WP. Higher resists, loses out in the Regen, but makes up for it with Dull Pain. However, it loses out for being tied with WP for #1, with the lack of PSI resists/Defense. Which in the long run, isn't as big of a problem as some people make it out to be, BUT is still a concern at times.
3) Shield. It's lack of a heal or any real regen is it's biggest drawback. Aid Self makes up for it, but can still be interrupted. It also lacks the PSI resist/defense. However, this is usually made up for with Shield Charge (knock them down) and AAO. With a Tier 9 similar to WPs!
For PvE, I find these sets are pretty much neck and neck. Close fights for the top position (when fully IOed out). But I'd rank them as such. Which some might argue they all fight for tieing for the #1 spot.
The next three spots are also very close in tying for their position.
4) Dark Armor. Go for added Defense, with a massive heal and mez auras for some serious defense. I rank it below the others, as part of it's defense just doesn't work on Bosses, some enemy groups (Cims come to mind first), EB and AVs to help with it's mitigation. The heal also requiers a to TOHIT check. But you can make it very accurate, and can easily get it to heal about 48-50% of one's life on just one target. At a really good RCH rate.
5 & 6) Regen and SR. They're so close. SR with Aid Self (it's interruptable), can just be made to be mean. But it's relying basically on Defense and Scaling resists. While -DEF enemies won't tear away it's defense like it will on a REGEN, there will be times it can be felt, not to mention enemies with +TOHIT.
Regen on the other hand. Built with lots of Defense you can't go wrong. But you have to be quick on the clickies. Know when to use what clickie. But this set can go pretty far. It's reliance on clickies is the only reason I put it lower than DA, and basically a tie with SR.
The last two are practically tied as well.
7 & 8) Fire Armor and Electric Armor. With lots of defense they are impressive indeed, but they have holes that are harder to be covered. And though they have quick heals, a bit better resists int he elemental areas, they just fall to the bottom imo.
I'd give Electric Armor the edge here, however. Power Sink does alot more for the survival than Fire Armor's added damage.
This is all just from my own experience however. In the end, when IOed out for survival over anything else, you're not likely to go wrong with any of the sets however. All of them can be made in to survivalable little wrecking machines. But from a ranking stand point, this is how I'd rank them.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
This really is a loaded question
Rankin secondaries is too subjective.
If you change the primary paired up with it you can get DRASTICALLY different results.
Such as
claws/wp compared to kat/wp
or
dm/sr compared to ma/sr
or
kat/da compared to ma/da
Ive run up really strong combos and really bad ones.
In my experience as a 60 mo vet player, Id say all /sec are pretty much even. When you add an ultra survivable primary like dm or an uber mitagation primary like kat/ to certain /secondaries you can achieve stupidly powerful things. IO's are just icing on the cake.
An IO'd ma/fire is gonna suck compared to an IO'd dm/shield, but both toons will probably be "better" then "most" any other toon in the game.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Hmmm...with IOs in the mix, I don't know if I'd say there's much of a difference between Claws/WP and Katana/WP for instance.|
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
This really is a loaded question
Rankin secondaries is too subjective. If you change the primary paired up with it you can get DRASTICALLY different results. Such as claws/wp compared to kat/wp or dm/sr compared to ma/sr or kat/da compared to ma/da Ive run up really strong combos and really bad ones. In my experience as a 60 mo vet player, Id say all /sec are pretty much even. When you add an ultra survivable primary like dm or an uber mitagation primary like kat/ to certain /secondaries you can achieve stupidly powerful things. IO's are just icing on the cake. An IO'd ma/fire is gonna suck compared to an IO'd dm/shield, but both toons will probably be "better" then "most" any other toon in the game. |
Throwing IOs, into the mix, and going for survival, you're usually going to build for defense. Now, with Katana you can focus those Io sets in other directions, for something else, however, I find it's more of a way to ditch Divine Avalanche more than anything else.
And of course. Dark Melee paired with anything equals more survival. Siphon Life just adds that much more to one's survival, especially if you can get the recharge to pull off Dark Melee's best DPS chain, so you're pretty much spamming SL for it's heal.
That's why I didn't rank the secondaries with any Primaries in mind.
If I did. I'd have to rank them with each Primary in turn.
DM/all the secondaries for instance, and repeat with the other Primaries.
DM/ pretty helps all survive more.
The Swords, depends on how you go for survival. Getting to softcap through just power choices/set bonuses, or are you throwing the DA/Parry attack into the ways of getting that Defense? And for the sets with types defense, would you still try to build off of DA/Parry? That will vary from build to build.
Elec/Elec I'd then rank more survival over Elec/Fire, as Electric Melee will help drain spawns of END faster, and keep them drained. Which goes along way in alot of the focus of Electric Armor's survival.
I might even say Elec/Elec is more survivable than DM/ELA in this case, but it would be one of the few times I'd put anything above DM's ability to help a sets survival.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Couple things that I find a bit wrong with this statement.|
Originally Posted by hewhorocks
I think this is pretty well spot on but I think you have to remember that "pimped out" doesnt make say willpower worse, its just that with big +recharge numbers / set bonuses SD gets silly fun. Also keep in mind that the costs to really "pimp out" a SD and SR or Regen vary wildly.
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Pimped WPs have high defense and recharge, they already come with high regen. However WPs have very low debuff resistance, come to think of it, I don't think they have any debuff resistance. While other sets that get pimped out get the debuff protection that doesn't come in IOs. So not have any debuff resistance definitely drops it's place.
And, SR can easily be soft capped and by default has one of the highest defense debuff resistance, with minimal IOs you can take it to the softcap and honestly it is pretty good there and you have options to do other things like add hp, regen, recharge, etc. If anything I would say SR is the cheapest to really pimp out.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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I find myself agreeing with alot of this.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Leveling up:
1)Willpower/Regen 2)Invulnerability 3)Electric Armor/Fiery Aura 4)Dark Armor 5)SD/SR Late/End Game - low level enh (so's or mild io's) 1)Willpower/SR/Inv 2)Dark Armor/Regen 3)SD 4)Electric Armor/Fiery Aura End Game - Pimped Out 1)SD 2)Willpower/Inv 3)Dark Armor/Regen 4)SR 5)Electric Armor/Fiery Aura Just my opinions, don't flip out if you don't agree, lol. *Note - I have not played electric armor on a scrapper, and haven't used it since the heal was added, just going by the numbers and seeing it in use by others on that set, so I could be off on that one. |
Fully IOed out, I'd put SD/WP/INV all in the top spots, their exact ranking might be decided on by what enemies they're fighting.
INV on a high end OMG THE INFLUENCE I SPENT ON THIS, is still likely tohave the PSI hole, to some degree (ie...might have a bit of defense added in there, but not that much)...but it can become a monster.
Though I can see why people might put SD in the number one spot, it still has it's down sides, but it's easier to get it softcapped and get an impressive amount of DPS out ofthe primary, while harder to do for WP and INV, as they need to use different sets to get their typed defenses up.
For example...I've yet to be able to make a DM/WP with softcapped defenses that could use the MG -> Smite -> Siphon Life -> Smite attack chain. Maybe others have. And if so, I'd love to see the build. But going over and over it again, I havent been able to do it.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I liked my dark/regen scrapper until I started fighting cimerorans. I have never died so much on any character ever. I fully imagine a build focusing on defense set bonuses, like everyone else, would be more effective than just recharge, but damn.
Quote:
Cims are just plain nasty in large numbers. And it's not just about defense with them, because they debuff it big time, so you need high debuff resists against them as well.
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Originally Posted by Dersk
I liked my dark/regen scrapper until I started fighting cimerorans. I have never died so much on any character ever. I fully imagine a build focusing on defense set bonuses, like everyone else, would be more effective than just recharge, but damn.
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I disagree with a bit of this.../INV and /WP don' have alot of defense debuff resistance, but can be made to do really well versus them.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Cims are just plain nasty in large numbers. And it's not just about defense with them, because they debuff it big time, so you need high debuff resists against them as well.
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Hmmm...if only Dark Armor could get a tohit aura as good as darkest night, so it could be as nasty as my Dark Miasa/ defender
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Inv has 50% DDR from the passives. I find it works pretty well on a Tanker to resist Cimeroran debuffing; it should be the same level of DDR on a Scrapoper, right? Although it's a given the Scrapper has to work harder to softcap.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I disagree with a bit of this.../INV and /WP don' have alot of defense debuff resistance, but can be made to do really well versus them.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
While scrappers get the same % DDR (50), Inv tankers and scrappers are very different beasts against Cims, in my experience. At 90% S/L res and up to 3000hp you can shrug off S/L damage for quite a while even if debuffed to oblivion. On the other hand, scrappers with 75% S/L res (2.5 times as much damage taken) really need to stay at 40%+ def, otherwise cascading defense failure can happen fast. I've found being just at the softcap with X foes in range doesn't cut it, to take on groups of cims comfortably without having to eventually hop around when 2 hits connect in a row I needed 45% S/L with 1 foe in range (bringing in to 57-58% with a crowd around, which is enough room to take 1-2 hits and stay near the softcap).
That said, I think many people when talking about Cims refer to an ITF - as in, a team, with team buffs or damage to support you, and rarely over +0. In that case, Inv and even WP can definitely do fine with minimal IO usage.
I can't for the life of me see how to handle +2/x8 (or above) efficiently on a solo WP though, unless picking a primary that provides absurd mitigation - and even then, say you pick Katana for DA, you're still going to have trouble hitting as their grant covers are very efficient when stacked. With ~55% S/L res, being barely at the softcap with 20% DDR makes the first landing hit very likely to start cascading defense failure, and regen doesn't do much when you're taking ~500 damage (if not more) per second. My experience with WP alts against Cims has been on a SS/WP brute (not build for softcap, getting completely obliterated unless popping insps), and a DB/WP scrapp (originally 37% S/L, was as bad as the brute, moved then to 45%, a bit better but still nowhere near enough to avoid hopping around while defense debuffed).
Of course I guess you could build to handle Cims by picking Energy Torrent and spamming it, but I just don't like that playstyle. :P
I don't like how squishy Regen is for me and won't play it (or Fire Armor) at this point. I could only tolerate it with a sword primary to get help from Parry's defense. I must not be seeing high-end, durable /regen builds very often, as I observe /regen teammates face-planting more than any other scrapper secondary (except maybe Fire Armor).
I routinely outlive tanks, because Regen doesn't care what kind of damage it is or where it's coming from. The only thing that really hurts it is slows. There have been many situations where the last members of the team standing were me and the tank...75% of the time the tank drops first.
My Regen isn't even at the top of the heap asfar as builds go, and I have plenty of survivability. It just requires more awareness than other sets. If you know when to pop your heals and when not to waste them it makes a big difference.
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.