Should I really slot small attacks for the most end reduction?

This is kind of a complicated question, but it's one that's been bugging me for a very long time. It's one instance when my math and my instinct contradict each other, and both are so strong that I cannot really draw a conclusion on my own. Let me explain:

When looking at what a power costs and what kind of an impact it has on your endurance bar over time, it's useful to look at not just its direct cost, but also its cast cycle and activation time. EPS or Endurance Per Second (or EPC, if we want to be technical) gives me a good idea of what the power should cost me in the long run with repeated use, and EPA or Endurance Per Activation tells me how the power compares to other powers when used in an attack chain, considering its immediate cost. Now, I generally trust those to give me a good estimate of which power is expensive and which is cheap, so that I know which to slot for how much endurance reduction.

But, and here's the big problem with that - my math tends to put the smallest attacks at the highest of costs. Long-recharge powers end up with very low EPS and slow-activating powers end up with low EPA. As such, big powers like Total Focus or Thunder Strike become "cheap," whereas comparatively small powers like Energy Punch and Charged Brawl end up significantly more expensive, at least in the short term. Now, I know Charged Brawl isn't exactly cheap at the cost of 10 endurance points, but Thunder Strike costs me a FIFTH of my endurance bar. Instinctively, that feels a lot more expensive, because it hits my reserve for a lot more.

What this comes to here is "feel," and I have this inexplicable feeling that Thunder Strike hurts my endurance more. I can't really explain why, it's just the impression I get from actual hands-on experience, though that might be just because it takes a clearly visible bite out of my endurance bar, whereas something like Charged Brawl or Havoc Punch takes smaller bites but more often, thereby being a little less obvious.

But even if we were to go purely by the numbers, even they aren't always consistent with themselves. For instance, while Charged Brawl has a high EPA cost, it has a relatively lower EPS, whereas a semi-attack like Electric Fence has a low EPA, but a VERY high EPS, meaning that if you spam it, it will cost you a lot. The problem with those estimates is that they don't necessarily give me feedback on the cost of the power so much as they do on its speed. Charged Brawl costs a little over half of what Thunder Strike does, but its animation is around a quarter long, while Electric Fence doesn't cost too much, but recharges very fast even for its lower cost. And this bugs me. I don't doubt that my numbers are correct, I'm just starting to doubt if I'm drawing the right conclusions on them.

So, really, I have to ask - Are my smallest powers really my most costly, both in the short and long terms? Am I really saving all that much in a once-over attack chain if I drop a 6 point cost to a 5 point cost, rather than dropping an 18 point cost to 14 point cost? I realise that stringing faster attacks together may end up adding up to more cost than a few high-cost slow ones, but it just seems... Unintuitive to do this. It seems unintuitive to slot Pistols and Electric Fence for a lot of endurance reduction while leaving something like Thunder Strike and Lightning Clap unslotted.

This is one of those cases where I honestly just don't know, and contemplating it on my own isn't going to help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

how i usually slot powers is i try to get my powers around 6-8 end per use, and most of the tier 1 attacks have really low end (usually 6 or less without slotting)

so my rule of thumb is to slot my heavy end use attacks with end reductions and slot my tier 1/2 attacks with no end reductions (maybe 1 at most)

are you also factoring in your end recovery or any end draining abilities that would allow more free slotting?

if you get high end recov from IO sets or even stamina (3 slotted stamina adds like .87 end recov/sec), the small attacks will take maybe 2 seconds at most to recover the end from, the larger attacks are what will burn your end in that case

Like you said, Samuel, the smaller attacks do seem to burn more endurance over time, so I generally slot those attacks with more endurance reduction, and my heavier attacks with more recharge. I figure with the end I save by spamming my low-level attacks, I can afford to light off my heavies more often.

I pander to my instincts by slotting some endred in everything[1]. Since the smallest attacks get the best damage/activation time[2], for faster recharge they get their sixth slot first. This may give them more endred as a side effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow when my math and my instinct contradict each other, and both are so strong that I cannot really draw a conclusion on my own.

That's a problem with learning math (and by extension architecture and industrial chemistry) I've yet to hear an answer to.
Let:

• A = the math that says 'endred in smaller attacks first'
• B = the math that says 'endred in attacks before toggles'

A is similar to B. However, if I was going from A to B, and could not be sure of A, I'm not sure I'd trust B.

[1]Got this habit from the forums; someone said something like "a DO's endred in all your attacks is as effective as slotted Stamina".
[2]A probaby disprovable generalisation based on Energy Manipulation and Broad Sword.

Personally, I don't slot any of my attacks for endurance reduction until I start moving into IOs. I have no problem popping some blue candy if my bar goes low.

However, if I did, I would most definitely slot it into those attacks that I use often and have the highest damage per activation second simply because I'd be getting the best bang for my slot. Because endurance and damage have a rather direct relationship thanks to the dam/rech/end formula, this also means that those attacks that have the best DPAs also tend to have the worst EPAs. Of course, because of the dam/rech/end formula ignoring animation time, the attacks with the best DPAs, fastest cycle times, and worst EPAs also tend to be those attacks that have short animations.

In short, yes, even though it seems counter-intuitive, slotting your "small" attacks will net you the most bang for your buck.

Now, if your curious as to why this seems so counter-intuitive, it's actually rather simple: humans suck at paying attention. We really do. 25 endurance for single power seems like a lot, especially compared to that other attack that uses 5 endurance. However, when you're using that 5 end attack almost 8 times more than you're using that 25 end attack, you finally see why. 25 just seems to be so much more than 5 when you don't have a relative context to put the two of them in.

You are forgetting accuracy too if you hit more often you use less end as well. It is actually a very complicated problem and the randomness thrown in makes it almost impossible to analyze it imho.
I have made a lot of melee toons cause of my bad altoholism but after 4 years I have found (by trial and error) that I last a lot longer in the early levels if I prioritize the smaller attack powers over the larger in terms of slots. I usually put in 1 acc and 1 blue then 3 reds unless I have a real end-hog set like /stone or fire when I put in 3 blues.

All of my attacks usually get 6 slotted [5 at the min], so regardless of the attack i always get the 4 main aspects to a min of 70% each.

Once each one has reached a min of 70%, then i start to think about adding procs and such. Basically if something costs endurance, then i lower it as much as possible to my liking I like to last in a long battle without having to resort to CABS.

I agree with Umbral -- it really all depends on how often you actually use the attacks over time. If you're going through a fixed, complete attack chain, then it should be pretty easy to work out. If you're a bit more random with attack choice, then I guess you'd need to time some combats, and go back through the combat log to work out exactly how many times you used each power during that time, and go from there.

Does HeroStats measure how often each power is used? If it does, that would make the experiment pretty easy.

*fires up the Arcanaville Signal*

Once I get serious about a character, I frankenslot, which results in giving every attack as much end eduction as possible without compromising on the key attributes (and in some powers where end cost is huge, it is a key attribute itself, for example, Dark Regeneration).

So I generally find that I don't have to worry about which attacks to put end red into since they're all crammed full of it.

Are you asking this question about a DP/EM toon specifically or generally?

If it's anything /EM my experience has been that only very rarely do I need to resort to CABs. With Scarlet, I use Power Sink extensively, along with Thunderstrike and I find that if I get below 1/2 a bar of End (which is rare) I just hit PS and I top up nicely. I have no End Redux IOs/SOs etc but I do have a few Sets that boost my End regen or have a hefty End Redux component, and of course I use Fitness. I also have Hasten which gives me a recharge bonus so it's rare that I use up End before PS is ready again.

I've not found many primaries that burn end much more quickly than Elec so I am guessing DP isn't especially high (but that is a guess - I may be wrong though.)

I haven't answered your specific question I'm afraid but I hope it's helped in some way.

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

Once you have a complete attack chain, you should theoretically be using the slowest recharging, highest damage attacks most often, while leaving the fastest recharging, lowest damage attacks sitting in the recharged state while waiting for a place in the chain to use them. This may not be the way attack chains are "officially" built, but there will always be an innate priority, and that priority will usually determine which are used the most often.

As such, it is always my strategy to slot the highest priority attacks for Endurance first. As my levels and available slots increase, I slot additional Endurance into my other attacks evenly. Once all attacks are slotted, or at least all those I intend to use regularly (i.e., I may skip situational powers) I may add additional slots to the highest priority attacks again.

High priority attacks are USUALLY the highest damage, but that is not always the case. If I have a lower damage attack I use more often than the highest damage attack, that is the priority. Also, while AoE attacks usually cost more endurance, they are usually also lower on my priority list. I will normally try to use them only if they can hit 2 or more foes. If an AoE attack is a high priority attack I use as part of my attack chain, I will add an additional Endurance slot to balance the greater End cost.

Note that the first End slot reduces the cost of an attack to 75%, the second to 60%, and the third to 50%. While the EPS of that is linear as you slot more End, the EPA is not. So IMO it is always more End efficient to slot two Powers with End than to slot one with two End. Similarly, attacks with long animation times, such as Sniper powers, Total Focus, or Propel, allow more End to be recovered during their animation times. Attacks which cost a lot of End very quickly tend to reduce End faster than it can be recovered, while lower End cost attacks can often recover close to the amount cost during the animation, or at the very least at a much closer rate.

I believe Jade hit on the problem with the observations vs the math. The math assumes activation of a power as soon as it is available at the exclusion of any other power. IE, put that power on auto and step away from the keyboard. This gets you the math results but is far from an efficent build.

In many cases the slower attacks become the meat and bread of the attack chain, filled in by faster attacks. In this case the overall Endurance used by that particular power is lower, as would be the benefit from slotting endurance reductions in that power.

Where I think your math would work as predicted is on a buzzsaw build, where you are using the fast recharge attacks as the main component of the attack chain. Here you will see the higher endurance usage of the quick powers, and it would be here that you would get the most benefit from the endurance reduction.

Based purely on the math, I would generally go with more endurance reduction in smaller, faster attacks. The math doesn't necessarily tell the whole story, however--as has been pointed out, patterns in your use of the powers makes a huge difference. If you only use Electric Fence once per fight, it doesn't make sense to slot it in preference to a power you use in every attack chain, no matter what their respective endurance costs. EPS values based purely on the EPA and recharge times of a power are not reliable gauges of the cost of a power in actual play.

If you really want to be sure of the best slotting strategy, it wouldn't be that hard to test it empirically. Make two copies of the character on the test server, one with big attacks slotted for end, and one with small attacks. Run an AE or Ouro mission several times with each build, with HeroStats active. Compare the endurance usage stats between the two builds, and you should be able to tell which build is best suited to your personal playstyle. (Since you may not have access to Test right now, you could do something similar with dual builds, but it could be prohibitively expensive to fill two near-identical builds on a well-slotted character.)