Why isn't fly faster than Ninja Run?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-03-06 15:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Zombie thank you for pointing out that I am technically wrong. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
NINJA RUN IS NOT FASTER THAN FLY.
Ninja Run + Sprint with 1 Run SO = 43.9 mph Ninja Run + Sprint with 1 Run SO + Swift with 1 Run SO = 50.6 mph Fly with 1 Fly SO = 51.7 mph. --------- Ninja Run + Sprint with 3 Run SOs + Swift with 3 Run SOs = 58.1 mph Fly with 2 Fly SOs = 58.6 mph (already past the fly cap). -------- Only after spending 3 extra slots, one powers slot, and many IO bonuses can you get Ninja Speed past the fly speed cap. |
The speeds are roughly equivalent it would appear. And they are probably beating me places because I gain altitude and lose altitude. Thus, they are going in a straighter line than I.
I still feel like Flying could be a good smidge or four faster.
Quote:
Sure, as long as the ceiling cap is 20' so that you would have to dodge every mob that Super Speeders have to.
|
Originally Posted by Talionis
I still feel like Flying could be a good smidge or four faster.
|
Quote:
Well Super Speed does have stealth. Super Speed is probably the weakest even though it is technically the fastest since yah you trip on a lot, can't run up walls (which they should totally do). |
Originally Posted by Red Valkyrja
Sure, as long as the ceiling cap is 20' so that you would have to dodge every mob that Super Speeders have to.
|
But I think because of "balancing" they have made flight too slow. Getting to and from missions isn't the fun playing is.
But some characters get around by theme and need to fly.
Quote:
Super Speed caps at 92.5 mph. Teleport starts out at approx. 102.27 mph (subject to player skill) and has no speed cap.
|
Originally Posted by Talionis
Well Super Speed does have stealth. Super Speed is probably the weakest even though it is technically the fastest since yah you trip on a lot, can't run up walls (which they should totally do).
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Actually, Ninja Run's *way* faster than Fly - with Hurdle + 3x Jump SOs you can get over 60mph (on my characters that have it and Super Jump, it hangs around roughly 4mph slower) jump speed and around a 45ft jump height.
Quote:
You're right. Ninja Run + Hurdle is faster than Fly. I'm not sure I would call 4 mph "*way* faster" than fly, but it is faster. However, you have to constantly hop to get that speed. On most mission maps, though, someone with fly will easily outpace you as you keep banging into the ceiling. |
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
Actually, Ninja Run's *way* faster than Fly - with Hurdle + 3x Jump SOs you can get over 60mph (on my characters that have it and Super Jump, it hangs around roughly 4mph slower) jump speed and around a 45ft jump height.
|
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
Quote:
Sprint is usually fast enough on most mission maps. I now use Ninja Run for the added mobility. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
You're right. Ninja Run + Hurdle is faster than Fly. I'm not sure I would call 4 mph "*way* faster" than fly, but it is faster. However, you have to constantly hop to get that speed. On most mission maps, though, someone with fly will easily outpace you as you keep banging into the ceiling.
|
But in getting from Mission to Mission the maps don't have ceilings to bump your head on. And when distances are larger is where differences in speed matter. Actually the ninja runners were hopping, but not hopping like super jump hopping. So that is another reason that Ninja Run was outpacing me.
I'm not as concerned about "balance". I'd rather be able to get from point A to point B faster. Flying is how 50% of superheroes in comics do that. When you had to make pool choices to get Flight. Part of the "balance" was the prerequisites and the fact that the pool was useful, and you could only have so many pools. The other part of the balance is the other benefits the travel powers get SS has stealth. Teleport is really techincially the fastest (on a good connection without lag, I've never had much trouble using this) and it has useful powers in recall friend and teleport foe. Balance doesn't have to be Flight vs Super Jump. It can be Flight Pool vs Jumping Pool.
What you want is a travel power with no downside.
You are not going to get it.
Every powerset in the game has downsides to it. Every power pool in the game has downsides to it.
You are not going to get a power that is all good and no bad. Flight is safe, and you can go ANYWHERE with it. If it was faster than other powers it would clearly be far superior to everything else.
Ninja Run is a travel power that you pay $10 real-life money to get, and you can't slot anything at all in it. Every other travel power can be slotted with useful IOs to gain benefits beyond being able to travel.
Teleport: The fastest travel power, but is the most diffcult to use. Also the only travel power that can run you out of endurance by itself. Actually it's one of the only powers in the GAME that can do that.
Super Speed: Fastest straight line power after teleport. Has a useful +Stealth effect built in. Has ZERO vertical movement ability, if you're in a zone that doesn't have much flat ground it sucks to have.
Super Jump: Good speed, has vertical movement, but it has a limit on how high you can go. You will occasionally find yourself dropping into a spawn that can kill you.
Fly: Slowest power. But....it's the only power that can get you to the zone ceiling and keep you there. Allows you to cross higher level zones in complete safety, without even a chance of agroing uplevel enemies. Lets you go literally anywhere in the game that is reachable by a player character. Can keep you permanently out of melee combat, making it useful for squishy characters.
With all the things that Flight can do that other travel powers cannot, asking it to be faster than other travel powers too is just unreasonable.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
My input: *Drags in a dead horse and passes everyone a whip each.*
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Unless you pay $10, apparently. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
What you want is a travel power with no downside.
You are not going to get it. |
Quote:
the downside is you can't slot it. Reading comprehension FTL.
|
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
Unless you pay $10, apparently.
|
Quote:
Yeah, I can see how $10, a power selection, 2 slots, and 3 enhancements makes Ninja Run faster than Fly.
|
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
Actually, Ninja Run's *way* faster than Fly - with Hurdle + 3x Jump SOs
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
You can't increase its speed, but asserting (as ClawsandEffect did) that its downside is that you can't use IO sets for benefits in it is a bit absurd - it takes no power picks, so you have as many powers to use for IO sets with it as without it. Instead, it frees you up to take other powers and use the appropriate sets in them. If you're desperate for places to set-mule BOTZ then nothing about Ninja Run prevents you from taking CJ or Hover anyway - you've gained build flexibility at no tradeoff (except, of course, for your ten dollars).|
Originally Posted by Lucky666
the downside is you can't slot it.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Yeah, I can see how $10, a power selection, 2 slots, and 3 enhancements makes Ninja Run faster than Fly.
|
That said, the sarcasm is misplaced - the fly speed cap means that, at the point of investing two slots in either, Ninja Run is indeed faster than Fly.
Quote:
Well... Ninja *Hopping* is faster than Fly. |
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
at the point of investing two slots in either, Ninja Run is indeed faster than Fly.
|
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
I was comparing advantages and disadvantages as though they were in a vacuum.
Like so: If you could have ONE travel power, with all others being locked out as soon as you choose, what are the advantages and disadvatages of each?
That's the beauty of the character creation process, you can make up for any disadvantages something has with another choice. But if taking Ninja Run locked you out of other choices, you would have the disadvantage of not being able to slot it.
You can take Hover or Teleport to make up for the lack of vertical mobility in Super Speed. You can take Super Speed to make up for the straight line slowness of Flight. And so on and so forth.
But what if your build is so tight due to concept powers or trying to achieve a build goal that you have no room to take travel power pools? The easiest way of obtaining Ranged and AoE defense is closed to you. I have several characters that won't have any travel power excet Ninja Run because there is no room in their build for another pool, or even one more power. For me in that case, Ninja Run has the disadvantage of not being slottable, I have to find 3.13% ranged and AoE defense somewhere else or do without it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
The problem is that Ninja Run is the only travel power that doesn't lock you out of any other choices. When you take any other travel power, two of your power picks (one if you are sufficiently veteran) are locked into position and can't be used for anything else, while Ninja Run essentially adds an extra power slot to your build. Bringing in the question of "locking out choices" is what makes Ninja Run almost excessively good.
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Like so: If you could have ONE travel power, with all others being locked out as soon as you choose, what are the advantages and disadvatages of each?
That's the beauty of the character creation process, you can make up for any disadvantages something has with another choice. But if taking Ninja Run locked you out of other choices, you would have the disadvantage of not being able to slot it. |
Youre still ignoring the question of: What if your build is so tight that you CAN'T take anything else?
Example: SR scrapper trying to softcap without spending a fortune. Power pools chosen to do that are: Fitness, Fighting, Leadership, and Medicine (to make up for SR's lack of a self heal) That leaves no room to take a slottable travel power. Slotting BotZ would be a logical way to gain some defense to 2 positions, but they can't because Ninja Run can't be slotted, and they have no other travel power.
Hence; disadvantage.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Then Ninja Run has the advantage of fitting in your build. You wouldn't be able to slot BotZs anyway, because with or without Ninja Run you apparently don't have room for powers that can take it.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Youre still ignoring the question of: What if your build is so tight that you CAN'T take anything else?
|
Because Ninja Run has no in-game cost to take it, there's no in-game disadvantage to it. It may help to think of it this way: Ninja Run grants you two (or one with City Traveler) bonus power picks in addition to its travel power qualities. You can choose to spend one or both of these on Zephyr mules, so it does not functionally have the "can't use it for Zephyrs" disadvantage; rather, it has the advantage that you can choose to spend those picks on things that don't take Zephyr.
What about the fact that has been brought up a copuple times and then apparently forgotten about?
Teleport, Flight, Super Jump, and Super Speed are all yours at level 14, just for paying the subscription fee that you were paying anyway.
In order to get Ninja Run (apparently a travel power with no downside) you have to pony up $10 in real money.
Ninja Run = $10
The other 4 travel powers = effectively free (unless you want to say you're paying $15 a month for travel powers, which seems kind of silly, I pay $15 a month to play the game)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
What about the fact that has been brought up a copuple times and then apparently forgotten about?
Teleport, Flight, Super Jump, and Super Speed are all yours at level 14, just for paying the subscription fee that you were paying anyway. In order to get Ninja Run (apparently a travel power with no downside) you have to pony up $10 in real money. Ninja Run = $10 The other 4 travel powers = effectively free (unless you want to say you're paying $15 a month for travel powers, which seems kind of silly, I pay $15 a month to play the game) |
This is why I specify in-game cost, and why Ninja Run annoys me - I'm not a fan of getting a significant in-game advantage in exchange for paying extra out-of-game. The other booster-pack powers are nice but don't have any significant effect (as far as I know) on how you would build a character. Ninja Run, however, removes one of the usual tradeoffs of character-building (two power picks vs. the hassle of not having a travel power) and has the potential to significantly change builds as a result.
It also has the same disadvantages as Super Speed and Super Jump.
Lack of vertical mobility (but not as severe as Super Speed) and it's not as fast as SS.
It keeps you at ground level and has no stealth component, so it's more difficult to avoid agro with it. I can't count the number of times I've been heading to a mission and jumped over a wall, only to agro a spawn on the other side that I didn't see.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Because you have Ninja Run there is no longer a need to get haste or tp friend?|
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
Ninja Run, however, removes one of the usual tradeoffs of character-building (two power picks vs. the hassle of not having a travel power) and has the potential to significantly change builds as a result.
|
All this does is allow us to put off a travel power till 20s or 30s when we have freedom of choice and put a few more slots in other powers big deal. It is a cosmetic change for a small price.
Quote:
As I've said, if you want powers from the travel pools, you're free to get them. The advantage given is the option not to, and it's more than cosmetic.
|
Originally Posted by _Klaw_
Because you have Ninja Run there is no longer a need to get haste or tp friend?
|
Quote:
Word.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Ninja Run costs you ten bucks, Fly doesn't cost you anything.
Next. |
NR allows me to put off travel powers forever, though I pick up Raptor Pack before level 10 and have that Jump Pack that came with, I think GvE. It has great synchronicity [if that's the right word] with NR. Though I never see anyone but myself Ninja Jumping through the sky.
And, I pick up rec friend since I'm a nice guy. And don't feel like waiting on their slow [butt].
Ninja Run + Sprint with 1 Run SO = 43.9 mph
Ninja Run + Sprint with 1 Run SO + Swift with 1 Run SO = 50.6 mph
Fly with 1 Fly SO = 51.7 mph.
---------
Ninja Run + Sprint with 3 Run SOs + Swift with 3 Run SOs = 58.1 mph
Fly with 2 Fly SOs = 58.6 mph (already past the fly cap).
--------
Only after spending 3 extra slots, one powers slot, and many IO bonuses can you get Ninja Speed past the fly speed cap.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides