I will /unsigned this.
Most attacks on a tank already have a taunt component to them. And your +damage for x amount of time already comes in the form of build up or rage.
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That taunt component that Tanker attacks already have is Gauntlet. I suggest they keep that...just not as the inherent.|
Originally Posted by Fing M C
I will /unsigned this.
Most attacks on a tank already have a taunt component to them. And your +damage for x amount of time already comes in the form of build up or rage. |
I understand they already have access to build up powers...but this suggestion is an effort to help Tanker damage.
Ok, so in other words, you want a scanker(scrapper/tank mix)? definately /unsigned.
Actually, if you wait until GR, you can bring brute to hero side and voila, you have a "tank" with a fillable +damage bar.
And the Critical on Scrapper attacks is part of the attack, not an inherent. As is Scourge. As is Containment. As is the new Defiance damage boosts.
Most inherents aren't true inherents. They're just tied to the powers.
As for your specific suggestion, I'm going to have to say no, at least as you have presented it, namely this part:
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And this will do exactly what for Defense-based Tankers? And will resistance cut into this bar building up? Fury works by attacking or being attacked, whether or not that attack lands or not. As you have presented it, the Tanker would need to be hit to take advantage of this new inherent, and that just doesn't jive with sets like Ice Armor, which are trying hard to avoid being hit in the first place.
| where you have to take damage for the click power to build up. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Well I just mean that they should keep the Gaunlet mechanics in the powersets but not actually label Gauntlet as their inherent.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
And the Critical on Scrapper attacks is part of the attack, not an inherent. As is Scourge. As is Containment. As is the new Defiance damage boosts.
Most inherents aren't true inherents. They're just tied to the powers. As for your specific suggestion, I'm going to have to say no, at least as you have presented it, namely this part: And this will do exactly what for Defense-based Tankers? And will resistance cut into this bar building up? Fury works by attacking or being attacked, whether or not that attack lands or not. As you have presented it, the Tanker would need to be hit to take advantage of this new inherent, and that just doesn't jive with sets like Ice Armor, which are trying hard to avoid being hit in the first place. |
I messed up there...in my post, I believe I also stated that it builds up when you get attacked.
So basically it would build up the same way fury builds up except that it does not build up when you attack.
Edit: You are correct about Ice Armor though. If I remember correctly, that's actually why Brutes do not have Ice Armor.
Okay, now my questions are these:
1) Why do you feel that Tankers are not in balance right now?
2) Why do you think that Damage is the way to fix them?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Brute's Fury isn't dependent on the enemies attack hitting the brute or the brute's attack hitting the enemy. If this was the case, then EA and SR brutes would be terrible damage dealers, and having a Fire/SR Brute...this is NOT the case. 
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To be honest, it's just from experience in playing both Tankers and Scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Okay, now my questions are these:
1) Why do you feel that Tankers are not in balance right now? 2) Why do you think that Damage is the way to fix them? |
Tanks excell at their primary function (Being on the front lines defending the team through Taunting and having excellent defense).
Scraps excell at their primary function (Being on the front lines dealing out damage to everyone).
It's their secondary functions that seem to be "off balance".
I believe that the Scrappers ability to have defense is better than the Tankers ability to deal damage.
Adding "more" damage to Tankers...in any sort of way...will make them more balanced with Scrappers in the ratio of Defense/Damage and Damage/Defense.
Put it like this...on a scale of 1 to 10...10 obviously being the highest:
A Scrappers Damage/Defense ratio seems around 10/8.
A Tankers Defense/Damage ratio seems around 10/6.
However, these are abitrary numbers based on my experience with Tankers and Scrappers.
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No the reason Brutes didn't get Ice armor was that Chilling Embrace (their main Taunt aura) has a hefty dose of -Rech which limited their ability to gain fury (especially when Ice Armor was paired with Ice Melee). As several people stated Brutes just need to get attacked to build fury, they don't need to get hit. If they did then the other defense based sets would also have serious Fury problems.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
Edit: You are correct about Ice Armor though. If I remember correctly, that's actually why Brutes do not have Ice Armor.
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A tank is a tank, not a scrapper. and a scrapper is a scrapper, not a tank. In other words, they are different AT's and should be left that way. I have a fire/ss tank that suffers from this syndrome you wish for and it gets borring after a while. I don't even play my brutes as much because of this.
The primary powers of an AT are what defines the AT. A tank screams damage taker while a scrapper screams damage dealer.
[QUOTE=Vitality;2653639]
Then add a new Inherent...along the line of domination...where you have to take damage for the click power to build up...the click power being something along the lines of a build up power that only affects damage.
hmm I would prefer a resist power not build up. The more you hit the tanker the more res he gets to your attacks 
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Actually, that's not the reason, otherwise Brutes wouldn't have gotten Dark Armor. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
No the reason Brutes didn't get Ice armor was that Chilling Embrace (their main Taunt aura) has a hefty dose of -Rech which limited their ability to gain fury (especially when Ice Armor was paired with Ice Melee). As several people stated Brutes just need to get attacked to build fury, they don't need to get hit. If they did then the other defense based sets would also have serious Fury problems.
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It's a pretty commonly seen rationale though, so that's why it keeps spreading.The reason was that Ice Melee sucked. Like, really, really sucked back then. Especially for Brutes. It only had a short-range cone for AoE, anemic single-target damage, and three control powers that further reduced incoming damage to a high degree. And then on the attacks that it did get, there was the -recharge component which even further hindered Fury generation. It was mostly this, which in combination with Ice Armor's own slight shortcomings, which made the Devs take Ice Melee/Ice Armor away from brutes.
But back on topic, if Scrappers are a 10/8 offense to defense, and Tankers are at a 10/6 defense to offense, then maybe they do need more damage, but you're going to need to prove that, OP. Not just with your personal observations, especially since you don't list what kind of Tankers/Scrappers you have, and what levels they are, but with actual numbers.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Or maybe if the click power shot up resistance like 30% for a minute?
That would be nice.
Tankers don't need more damage. I have an Ice/Ice, probably the weakest damaging tanker, and I don't have any trouble killing things with a decent speed. No, I'm not downing bosses in three attacks, but I'm not running through my attack chain three times for a single minion. And that's with out using build up.
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You can get the same effects already from the Eye of the Magus accolade, and medium and large orange inspirations come close. I also don't think it would benefit tanks who were at or near the resistance cap on their own.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Or maybe if the click power shot up resistance like 30% for a minute?
That would be nice. |
My Willpower/Super Strength tank will beg to differ. I do some freaking scrapper damage even without rage. With rage I do some major damage. Tanks are fine. I wouldn't change them
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@Inconclusive
Buff Energy melee.
Theres a reason I gutted my Invul/EM and made him Invul/Elec.
Thats about all I could fault with Tankers at the moment. That and Stone Armour as a whole, but thats something I know will need a lot of work (Castle himself said that Stone was 31 levels of fail for 19 levels of win, which he didnt like, but also was going to have nightmares fixing.)
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Except that those numbers are wrong.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
Put it like this...on a scale of 1 to 10...10 obviously being the highest:
A Scrappers Damage/Defense ratio seems around 10/8. A Tankers Defense/Damage ratio seems around 10/6. |
Now, let's just ignore caps right off the bat because balance deals with SO grade performance. If anything, capped performance would skew Tanker performance even higher than Scrapper performance because Tankers can get so much harder to kill than a Scrapper.
Tanker defense mods are 1.0 and Scrappers are .75. Tankers are 33% more survivable than Scrappers and Scrappers are 25% less survivable than Tankers. Right there, it's already demonstrated that your comparison values Scrapper defenses too high. Combine this with the fact that Tankers have 1874.1 hp at 50 and Scrappers only have 1338.6 hp, and you see that Tanker's are 40% harder to kill and have 40% better heals than Scrappers while Scrappers are 30% easier to kill and have 30% weaker heals. Overall, Tankers are 86% harder to kill than Scrappers and Scrappers are 47.5% easier to kill than Tankers.
Now, Scrappers have a base damage scalar of 1.125 with a 7.5% raw damage contribution from their inherent giving them a functional damage scalar of 1.21. Tankers have a base damage scalar of .8 with no other raw damage contributions. Scrappers have 50% better damage than a Tanker and Tankers have 33% worse damage than Scrappers.
Now, using this information about base scalars which completely ignores powerset options (which would favor Tankers even more thanks to sets like Stone Melee, Stone Armor, Super Strength, and Energy Melee which are incredibly powerful but Scrappers do not have access to), your "ratings" should look much more like this:
Scrappers: damage (10), defense (5.25)
Tankers: damage (6.66), defense (10)
You seem to be inflating Scrapper defenses by a large amount while ignoring the fact that Tankers actually deal some rather respectable damage.
Tankers... need more damage?
Look, I understand I'm a bit confused on what this "tanker" word means, because mine is Shield Defense/Super strength, but my Shield Defense/Super Strength tanker does damage to the point where my wife (who plays a Broadsword/WP Scrapper) regularly tells me that it looks like I'm the main damage dealer of the party.
Now granted, it's generally spike damage in a Double-Rage Shield Charge doing obscene damage to all foes in an AoE but.. ... Riiight, it's totally a lot of damage.
Tankers can deal damage fine if they need to. Adding to their damage would just make them overpowered. As is, Gauntlet is often what makes Tankers preferable to scrappers /on a team./ Most scrappers can't draw or keep enough aggro to keep a team of squishies alive, but one tanker can usually hold aggro for a team of 8 fine.
So if you're saying scrappers do more damage and have enough survivability that they seem overpowered one on one... you're absolutely right. But on a team, Gauntlet is what makes tanks win.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
Just for the record: Super Strength is pretty much the damage powerhouse for Tankers, and isn't a great comparison point. There's a reason Scrappers don't get it, and it's not flavour - SS Scrapper damage would be utterly obsene.
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So what you're saying is that the offensive might of the Tanker depends on secondary? So the "lack of damage" feeling might be there on some sets, but not on others?|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Just for the record: Super Strength is pretty much the damage powerhouse for Tankers, and isn't a great comparison point. There's a reason Scrappers don't get it, and it's not flavour - SS Scrapper damage would be utterly obsene.
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Actually, Bill Z's results thread indicates that this would not be the case.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Just for the record: Super Strength is pretty much the damage powerhouse for Tankers, and isn't a great comparison point. There's a reason Scrappers don't get it, and it's not flavour - SS Scrapper damage would be utterly obsene.
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The results are in, take 2
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Well I was .66 off on the Tankers damage. |
Originally Posted by Umbral
Except that those numbers are wrong.
Now, let's just ignore caps right off the bat because balance deals with SO grade performance. If anything, capped performance would skew Tanker performance even higher than Scrapper performance because Tankers can get so much harder to kill than a Scrapper. Tanker defense mods are 1.0 and Scrappers are .75. Tankers are 33% more survivable than Scrappers and Scrappers are 25% less survivable than Tankers. Right there, it's already demonstrated that your comparison values Scrapper defenses too high. Combine this with the fact that Tankers have 1874.1 hp at 50 and Scrappers only have 1338.6 hp, and you see that Tanker's are 40% harder to kill and have 40% better heals than Scrappers while Scrappers are 30% easier to kill and have 30% weaker heals. Overall, Tankers are 86% harder to kill than Scrappers and Scrappers are 47.5% easier to kill than Tankers. Now, Scrappers have a base damage scalar of 1.125 with a 7.5% raw damage contribution from their inherent giving them a functional damage scalar of 1.21. Tankers have a base damage scalar of .8 with no other raw damage contributions. Scrappers have 50% better damage than a Tanker and Tankers have 33% worse damage than Scrappers. Now, using this information about base scalars which completely ignores powerset options (which would favor Tankers even more thanks to sets like Stone Melee, Stone Armor, Super Strength, and Energy Melee which are incredibly powerful but Scrappers do not have access to), your "ratings" should look much more like this: Scrappers: damage (10), defense (5.25) Tankers: damage (6.66), defense (10) You seem to be inflating Scrapper defenses by a large amount while ignoring the fact that Tankers actually deal some rather respectable damage. |
I can see being off on the Scrappers defense also, as my numbers were based off high end WP and SR scraps.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
Well I was .66 off on the Tankers damage.
I can see being off on the Scrappers defense also, as my numbers were based off high end WP and SR scraps. |
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Originally Posted by Vitality
However, these are abitrary numbers based on my experience with Tankers and Scrappers.
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I suggest that they take the Gaunlet Inherent and just add it to the primary powers.
Then add a new Inherent...along the line of domination...where you have to take damage for the click power to build up...the click power being something along the lines of a build up power that only affects damage.
Think of the Fury bar...where taking hits builds up the percentage...and when your not taking hits it goes down.
This new Tanker inherent does not build up for attacking...it only build up for gettin hit or being attacked.
Lets say that you have to fill the bar up 100% for the inherent click power to be available to you.
Example: As a Tanker, you run into the spawn and start getting attacked...Your new inherent bar starts to fill up...if you're attacked enough, before the bar starts to go down again, you eventually build it up to 100% and then the click power becomes available, which is a +damage click that lasts for X amount of time. When the click power wears off...you have to build it up again in order to use the click power again.
Obviously I do not have any values...but this is the main idea.
What do you think?