What if taunt gave knockback resist?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-02-26 12:41 in Suggestions and Ideas
I think you've answered your question within your post: if the knockback resist only applies to knockback and not down or up then I think this could be an interesting workaround for the Tank + Energy Blast/Telekinetic Thrust etc problem.
Alternatively some kind of proc in Taunt to produce this effect might be useful although I'm not sure a negative knockback proc would actually work. Might be wrong.
The other problem I see is powers like Hand Clap, used by a Tank that's just taunted to add further soft control.
I am not a numbers person but these are just a few observations.
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It's important to understand that as far as the game is concerned Knockdown and Knockback are both the same effect, in game terms Knockdown is just Knockback with a magnitude less than 1. So protection to one will cause protection to the other. I think that potentially adding Resistance would work since it would convert the Knockback to Knockdown (by lowering the magnitude) without noticeably impacting the Knockdown although I'm not certain about that.|
Originally Posted by Tir_McDohl
-Would this interfere with knockdown effects such as ice slick? That could well be a dealbreaker in itself. It'd still be useful for dealing with surplus enemies that can't attack the tank, but it's a major potential nerf for a really useful power.
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I don't particularly care for the idea for the same reasons that have been discussed to death in pretty much every knockback thread ever
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Pretty sure it would. Those powers work by being a low magnitude knockback - less than 1, I think. So if Taunt gives even 1 knockback protection, taunted foes would be immune to earthquake and the like.|
Originally Posted by Tir_McDohl
-Would this interfere with knockdown effects such as ice slick? That could well be a dealbreaker in itself. It'd still be useful for dealing with surplus enemies that can't attack the tank, but it's a major potential nerf for a really useful power.
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You could give them enough protection that most knockback becomes knockdown, but I don't think it's possible with out making them immune to powers that are already just knockdown.
This would potentially ruin my Stone/Fire Brute (I know you're talking about Tanks but Brutes get Taunt in their attacks and auras too). My Fiery Aura would break Fault and Tremor on me meaning I couldn't do my Shake and Bake properly.
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Actually, KB is mag 0.75 or greater. KD is less than mag 0.75. Just a quick little clarification there.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
It's important to understand that as far as the game is concerned Knockdown and Knockback are both the same effect, in game terms Knockdown is just Knockback with a magnitude less than 1. So protection to one will cause protection to the other. I think that potentially adding Resistance would work since it would convert the Knockback to Knockdown (by lowering the magnitude) without noticeably impacting the Knockdown although I'm not certain about that.
I don't particularly care for the idea for the same reasons that have been discussed to death in pretty much every knockback thread ever . |
But yeah, I'm not really seeing this. In addition to making no sense (I tell a 'yo mamma' joke to the guy, and suddenly he can stand up better?), it does tend to make some effects not work for Tankers, even if they are rarely taken.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Tell the tanker to stop whining and get on with what he should be able to do, regardless of KB.
If an easily distracted wrench-bot like myself can manage it, so can pretty much anyone. Also, if stuff is getting KB'd, it means that its a few minions less to worry about for a moment, while they decide which way is up and down again.
KB is just another form of mez, one that should be welcome.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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It would break way too many tanker and controller powers. War Mace would go from being a great powerset back to being wussy, Earth Control and Ice Control lose thier primary mitigator, etc...
On a side note, I've never really understood the "I can't tank with you energy blasters around" attitude. To me this is just the mark of a bad tanker. It isn't necessary to keep every single mob centered in a 2 foot circle. Taunt (and gauntlet) effects last long enough (especially once slotted correctly) that you might blast the mob away from me, but it's just going to stand up and run back over to me again.
Of course, if you're playing a tanker who doesn't slot taunt durations into your powers, doesn't regularly use Taunt, and doesn't keep your gauntlet effects spread around (which is perfectly fine, I've more than one tank built/played this way as well) then you just have to recognize that you aren't the be-all-end-all aggro holder and compensate if you're primary tank for a team.
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
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this. I own several tanks (admittedly not an earth tank with their rooting abilities, I can see that as an exception) and I long ago adapted a much more mobile tanking strategy. I do come across a bit more like a scrapper at times (just a bit) but when you have teams that can mow the field of opponents without using a tank, then you have to adapt to remain viable. I've had several positive comments in feedback, so I know it works.|
Originally Posted by Soulwind
On a side note, I've never really understood the "I can't tank with you energy blasters around" attitude. To me this is just the mark of a bad tanker. It isn't necessary to keep every single mob centered in a 2 foot circle. Taunt (and gauntlet) effects last long enough (especially once slotted correctly) that you might blast the mob away from me, but it's just going to stand up and run back over to me again.
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Oh, and if you reversed your concept, and made the knockback-negation effect on the taunting tank, I might finally be able to play a fire/fire tank, one of a very few toons I've not played well.
It's the best if the control between kb and kd can be in the hands of the player who uses the effect, rather than being overridden by another person. The suggestion is interesting, but I don't think knockback resistance is thematic to taunt.
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Ah, good to know.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Actually, KB is mag 0.75 or greater. KD is less than mag 0.75. Just a quick little clarification there.
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Knockback protection in taunt, clearly a bad idea for the reasons listed, but this gives me an idea for a power that COULD be a good idea...
Mud Trap
Earth Mastery 44
Toggle
PBAoE, 10 foot radius
Foe -Speed, Foe Mag 10 KB Protection, Chance for Immobilize
Arctic could have a similar power called "Freezing Field" that involves ice crawling over the feet of the foes in the area.
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On the other hand, KB resistance reduces KB in the same manner that damage resistance reduces damage. KB protection is the one that reduces KB like a mez.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Actually, KB is mag 0.75 or greater. KD is less than mag 0.75. Just a quick little clarification there.
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While it's true that most anti-KB powers (Unyielding, Rooted, Integration, etc.) have 10,000% KB resistance (no, seriously, 10,000% and it works exactly like damage resistance does), a target could theoretically be given less than 100% KB resistance, and the KB would remain, but in a reduced form.
If Taunt granted 50% KB resistance, KB powers mag 1.5 and higher would remain KB, but with a reduced distance. KB powers in the range [0.75,1.5) would become knockdown.
With 75% KB resistance, the range of KB that becomes KD would be [0.75,3)
With 90% KB resistance, the range would be [0.75,7.5)
With 99% KB resistance, the range would be [0.75,75)
Offhand, I'm not certain what the highest magnitude KB players can achieve is. Without doing any power comparison, I think the highest magnitude player power is Nova from Energy Blast, at mag 20.771 for Defenders. 6-slotting lv50 generic KB IOs into that would yield 209.76% enhancement, or mag 43.5692496 KB.
In order to turn that extreme amount of KB into KD using KB resistance, you would need to grant a bit more than 98.278%, so we'll call it 98.279%. Of course, I believe that the KB resistance-granting would stack between different casters (they could add the "does not stack from same caster" flag to prevent stacking from the same person). Even if they implemented the same system as they have with Vengeance, stacking could occur if two Taunts were sent on the same server tick (which is more likely than accidentally stacking Vengeance).
Considering it's unlikely that anyone will slot Nova for KB, you could instead go for Nova's default KB magnitude (requiring 96.37% resistance) Or, you could go for a more common KB magnitude; Defender Energy Torrent @ mag 6.231, for example. Turning this from KB to KD would require 87.964% resistance. OR, you could ensure that double-stacking doesn't cause a problem, and halve any of my previously mentioned values (49.14%, 48.185%, and 43.982%, respectively). This would decrease the range of KB magnitudes that would become KD (none of which would exceed mag 1.5 without stacking), but would prevent stacking from becoming a problem. (I am fairly certain that a mag 0 KB would not be KD, but I have no means to test that, as all instance of KB resistance will reduce the KB to mag 0, and are also paired with KB protection. Reaching 100% KB resistance on the target would reduce all [resistable] KB to mag 0, and there is no player power that I know of which causes non-resistable KB. Any power which does cause non-resistable KB would ignore this system I am presenting alltogether.)
Note: This post is entirely about presenting the possibilites of the suggestion within the existing game mechanics, and does not necessarily support the OP's proposition.
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Hey! I'm slotting up knockback on some of my characters.|
Originally Posted by Arctic_Princess
I think you've answered your question within your post: if the knockback resist only applies to knockback and not down or up then I think this could be an interesting workaround for the Tank + Energy Blast/Telekinetic Thrust etc problem.
Alternatively some kind of proc in Taunt to produce this effect might be useful although I'm not sure a negative knockback proc would actually work. Might be wrong. The other problem I see is powers like Hand Clap, used by a Tank that's just taunted to add further soft control. I am not a numbers person but these are just a few observations. |
I don't want a lethargic Tanker spoiling my fun because they want to be rooted to one spot. If the player doesn't want to chase things, they can play an archetype with some ranged attacks.
BTW, I was on a team and had to endure a Tanker with Shield Rushing that was giggling madly about Shield Rushing in and throwing the enemies everywhere.
I was playing a Plant Controller and started gluing down the enemies just as the Tank was Shield rushing in and the Tank started complaining.
So it looks like Tanks complain a lot in general.
Taunt is -Range, so if the targets are knocked away, they will come back if they are Taunted, most Tanks take less damage from Ranged attacks, and Controllers certainly have AoE holds and immobilizes that can hold down enemies.
There is no reason to add more ways to take away the advantage of knockback from those that have it - and it is THE advantage for those that have it as part of their power set.
Just an idea I had while on my energy blaster (god knows I love it too much). Oddly enough, I actually wasn't the one causing issues for the tank (I use walls to good effect, etc), but someone else apparently was. On a side note, power customization is a great way to show that your blasts are NOT the ones causing issues. Anyway, while people were whining about enemies flying every which direction, a thought occurred to me. What if the taunt effect gave knockback resistance to enemies?
Now I'll admit this was just a random idea, but I couldn't think of any real bad sides to it. Of course, I figure a forum is the perfect place to find that empty half of the glass, so let the idea have it. Heck, feel free to yell at me that it's been said a million times.
A few points to get started:
-If an enemy is currently taunted, it's not likely that it would ever be a good idea to send it flying away, right?
-Thematically, it could either represent the enemy being so focused on attacking the taunter that they can resist being knocked off their feet. Or perhaps the taunter is physically restraining them and keeping them from flying off.
-Would this interfere with knockdown effects such as ice slick? That could well be a dealbreaker in itself. It'd still be useful for dealing with surplus enemies that can't attack the tank, but it's a major potential nerf for a really useful power.
-Knockback is a great control method for blasting something off someone who shouldn't be getting hit. These situations rarely involve the enemy being taunted, so it shouldn't be affected...right?
Anyway, I tried to see if this was suggested before and didn't see it. I'm awful at searching, though. I realize knockback can be dealt with using decent tactics and just plain common sense, but the main thing about this game I always loved is that you can play it with pickup groups without too much trouble. This could very well cut down on both the warranted complaints as well as the complainers who scream if something so much as falls off his feet.
Thoughts?