Powerset Proliferation
By
ArchLight,
Posted on: 2010-02-24 08:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Yeah, all good points. I'd still make one (as I did a TA Corr) because I'm a sucker for Corrs. |
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
Just gonna focus on the FF for Corruptors part. Force Field on a Corruptor would suffer from a similar issue as Trick Arrows, in that it would be nearly a duplicate of the Mastermind version.
The damage from Force Bolt and Repulsion Bomb would be higher, Dispersion Bubble would give a little more Mez Protection, and Insulation Shield would grant slightly higher resistance to End Drain and Recovery debuffs, but otherwise... Corruptors and Masterminds share the same modifier value for Defense buffs, Knockback, and Mez (Durations or Mag). Even worse, Personal Force Field for MMs would give higher Defense and higher Resistance than the Corruptor version. Forcefield is another set I think needs a little work before Corruptors get it. Otherwise, it'll be like Corruptor Trick Arrows all over again (by that I mean      ).Edit: Sonic Resonance is pretty much in the same boat; it'll be nearly identical for MMs and Corruptors. |
What I like most about the idea of /FF for Corrs is that I could pair it with something like Fire. Bubbling people every 4 minutes and spending the rest of the time running around with mez protection blowing stuff to bits = happy Silas.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Give me Dark Miasma, Traps and Poisons (tweaked to allow Noxious Gas to be used on the pet) for Controllers and I'm pretty much happy... Still, I'd rather have new primaries before.
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| Ninja Blade (has Katana) |
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| Katana (has Ninja Blade) |
You DO realize they're the exact same set, don't you?
Katana and Ninja Blade are absolutely identical except Ninja Blade loses Lotus Drops to fit the Assassin Strike in. Calling the Wolf (the taunt) is replaced with Placate (the placate). Other than that they are functionally identical.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I'd like to see Martial Arts and Broadsword become Brute Primaries. For secondaries, Regen would be nice to have as well, but I don't care for ice armor (so tired of building defense).
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The problem with porting Poison with just that tweak is the possibility of Mind Control/Poison controllers. Poison can assume the existence of pets on Masterminds (even a petless Mastermind still had the option of taking the pet powers) but on controllers you need to allow for the possibility of a set without a pet in it.
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Originally Posted by Ynni
Give me Dark Miasma, Traps and Poisons (tweaked to allow Noxious Gas to be used on the pet) for Controllers and I'm pretty much happy... Still, I'd rather have new primaries before.
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Very true. Forgot all about Mind Control. Then it'd probably have to be opened up to everything but at the cost of something.
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I think he does. That's why he mentioned one when referring to the other. He did something similar with Pain and Empathy. While they are more different, the devs stated that they considered Pain to be the villain equivalent of Empathy, so he did the same reference in his list between the sets.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You DO realize they're the exact same set, don't you?
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Basically, he understood that Ninja and Katana will never need to be proliferated, and that Pain and Empathy will probably never be proliferated due to dev opinion.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
In the next round of proliferation, I'd like to see:
Blasters:
Dark Blast & Darkness Manipulation
AND/OR Martial Training secondary (Martial Arts-style hand-to-hand combat with a few extremely low-tech gadgets)
Controllers:
Electric Control & Poison
Defenders:
Thermal Radiation & Fire Blast
Scrappers:
Energy Melee & Energy Aura
Tankers:
Broad Sword & Energy Aura
Brutes:
Broad Sword & Regeneration
Corruptors:
Psychic Blast & Poison
Dominators:
Electric Control & Pistol Assault (mixture of Dual Pistols and Martial Arts attacks)
AND/OR Illusion Control
Masterminds:
Radiation Emission OR Sonic Resonance secondary (or even Kinetics, but that's probably a pipe dream...)
Stalkers:
Ice Melee & Ice Armor
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Can't do Ice powers for Brutes, due to the fact that they inhibit the ability to build your Fury meter. Since the secondary effect is to slow your enemies, they attack less often, causing you to do less damage. |
Originally Posted by Clouded
I'd like to see Martial Arts and Broadsword become Brute Primaries. For secondaries, Regen would be nice to have as well, but I don't care for ice armor (so tired of building defense).
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Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I'm on the Ninjitsu for Scrappers bandwagon; between Katana, Martial Arts, Weapon Mastery (I know, "lulz"), and now the Martial Arts Booster, it seems like a pretty obvious choice. The necessary changes have been mentioned here and in other threads, but I think you'd actually have to change the heal, as well. It just seems like that set would be "OP" if the heal retained its current values when ported over.
(That's totally subjective, of course; I'm sure a strong case could be made for maintaining the current values, and I for one would be glad to hear that case)
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This argument holds no weight.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Can't do Ice powers for Brutes, due to the fact that they inhibit the ability to build your Fury meter. Since the secondary effect is to slow your enemies, they attack less often, causing you to do less damage.
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Brutes have dark armor, which includes a stun and a fear aura. One only lets enemies retaliate, the other stops them from attacking entirely. If dark armor brutes are allowed to murder their own fury bar, ice armor brutes should be allowed to hurt it.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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It's not my argument. That's just what the devs told us when they removed Ice/Ice from Brute options during the CoV beta. You'll have to take it up with them. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
This argument holds no weight.
Brutes have dark armor, which includes a stun and a fear aura. One only lets enemies retaliate, the other stops them from attacking entirely. If dark armor brutes are allowed to murder their own fury bar, ice armor brutes should be allowed to hurt it. |
Also, you can skip Cloak of Fear and/or Oppressive Gloom. You can't skip the speed debuffs that come with the ice attacks. Ice Armor would feasibly be okay (just skip Chilling Embrace)... but how are you going to tell the playerbase that you can have Ice Armor but not Ice Melee on a character? It just doesn't make any thematic sense to offer one but not the other.
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Another thing I'd like to see that I thought of after my previous post... rather than giving Broadsword to Tanks and Brutes, why not just give them the Broadsword models for their Axe powersets? Don't they use the exact same animations anyway?
Then, of course, do the same thing with the Axe weapon models for the Scrapper and Stalker Broadsword powersets.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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That's a pretty cool idea, but what would you rename the sets?
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Lethal damage weapon attacks.|
Originally Posted by StormDevil
That's a pretty cool idea, but what would you rename the sets?
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Smashing damage weapon attacks.
That's basically what they are, right? Mace and Axe actually share the shovel model, though I believe it's turned 90 degrees. Mace hits with the blunt face of the shovel while Axe hits with the edge.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Also of note: Back then, fury was only built by getting hit, not by getting attacked. A purely defensive set would not build any fury if it was working right.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
It's not my argument. That's just what the devs told us when they removed Ice/Ice from Brute options during the CoV beta. You'll have to take it up with them.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Heh, I think a new player creating his first character would look at the Character Creation screen, see "Lethal Weapon Attack" and "Smashing Weapon Attack", and be utterly confused.
I still like the basic premise of the idea, though; the more skin(s) the better.
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I don't believe that is the case. Stone Armor has a large Defense component as well, and yet no one complained about it interfering with Fury. Not to mention that Invulnerability's protection in large teams is at least 50% Defense, probably much more. Besides, Energy Aura was developed specifically as a Def-based replacement for Ice Armor.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Also of note: Back then, fury was only built by getting hit, not by getting attacked. A purely defensive set would not build any fury if it was working right.
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Fury has been built by attacks on the Brute, not hits on the Brute, for as long as I can remember. Although I suppose it could have been that way in early Beta. (And the rumor did continue to persist that it was hits, not attacks, long after release)
Dark ARMOR includes stun and fear effects, but Dark MELEE only includes a single target fear. Its secondary effect, -Acc, however, does not effect frequency of attacks on the Brute. -Recharge, or Slow, does effect frequency of attacks. Chilling Embrace's -Recharge is also massive (32%) and stacks with the attacks. While I think you can take 1/3 of the foes out of the fight with Dark's stuns and fears, you'll be losing hit points while doing it, and won't be stacking the effects.
Axe and Mace were said to interfere with Fury too (players have said it, the devs never confirmed that) and they were added after an adjustment to the redraw times. So it is possible that the Ice Armor/Melee problem can be resolved with some more testing and a few tweaks. (In fact, it's likely that all you need to do is just replace Chillling Embrace. The Melee secondary effect may need to be changed, but it may be fine without the stacking from Ice Armor. Hibernate may also be somewhat problematic to a Brute, although given what it does, losing Fury may be acceptable)
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Broadsword and Battle Axe are measurably different. Like Broadsword and Katana. In fact, Battle Axe is more different. It has knockdown as its secondary effect, instead of -Def, lacks Parry, and replaces Slice with the more powerful Pendulum and a separate Tier 3 attack. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Lethal damage weapon attacks.
Smashing damage weapon attacks. That's basically what they are, right? Mace and Axe actually share the shovel model, though I believe it's turned 90 degrees. Mace hits with the blunt face of the shovel while Axe hits with the edge. |
This is not to say that bladed weapons for Scrappers can't have Parry, and bladed weapons for Tankers and Brutes can't have Pendulum, but I think they are intended to have very different feels.
On thing I have noted is that Dual Blades is the two handed version of Lethal Weapon attacks, but there is no two handed Smashing weapon at this time. Which is a gap I hope Staff can fill. It even suggests the option to have the "staff" be a sometimes interlocking pair of staves.
On the Ice issue for Brutes, could it be that it's because Ice has a tendency to slow the recharge times on powers thus making attacks a lot less frequent? I've noticed that whenever I'm a target for ice powers, it takes seemingly forever for any of my powers to recharge, whereas with other powers like fear, stun, or knockdown, it's just a minor inconvenience. Perhaps this is what the devs meant?
On the topic, this should be what we have left: (Including what might not be portable because of problems previously mentioned)
Blaster
Dark Blast
Dark Manipulation
Spines/Plant Manipulation
Earth Manipulation
Controller
Dark Miasma
Poison (or Hero counterpart)
Traps
Defender
Fire Blast
Poison (or Hero counterpart)
Thermal
Scrapper
Battle Axe
Energy Melee
Ice Melee
Stone Melee
Super Strength
War Mace
Energy Aura
Ice Armor
Ninjitsu
Stone Armor
Tanker
Energy Aura
Ninjitsu
Regeneration
Super Reflexes
Broadsword
Claws
Katana
Martial Arts
Spines
Brute
Broadsword
Ice Melee
Katana (or Ninja Blade)
Martial Arts
Spines
Ice Armor
Ninjitsu
Regeneration
Corruptor
Psychic Blast
Force Field
Poison
Dominator
Illusion Control (or Mastermind)
Dark Assault
Some sort of combination of Assault Rifle/Archery/Dual Pistols with MA or similar
Mastermind
Cold Domination
Kinetics
Radiation Emission
Sonic Resonance
Stalker
Battle Axe
Fire Melee
Ice Melee
Stone Melee
Super Strength
War Mace
Fire Armor
Ice Armor
Invulnerability
Shield Defense
Stone Armor
Mastermind Primaries do not seem to be considered in Proliferation, but some possibilities related to existing Sets would be: (I'm assuming Demon Summoner will use fire attacks)
Illusion Summoning
Electric Blast/Robotic or Elemental Summons
Ice Blast/Ice Demons
Psychic Blast/Illusions/Phantasms?
Rad Blast/Mutations
Sonic Blast/Wailers?
Earth/Elementals?
Nature/Storm/Plants
While creating new powersets is not considered part of Proliferation, these are the new Power Sets we could use:
Earth Blast
Nature/Spines/Storm Blast
Gravity Blast
Electric Control
Dark Control
Sonic Control
Radiation Control
Gadgets/Non-Lethal Weaponry/Riot Control
Earth Buff/Debuff
Electric Buff/Debuff
Sonic Melee
Radiation Melee
Psi Melee
Sonic Defense
Radiation Defense
Sonic Manipulation
Rad Manipulation
Gravity Manipulation (similar to Super Strength and/or Kin)
(plus Dark, Spines/Plant and Earth mentioned above)
Sonic Assault
Rad Assault
Gravity/Super Strength
(plus Dark, Weapons Assault mentioned above)
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Yeah, but it's not the recharge on YOUR attacks, it's on attacks coming in. |
Originally Posted by Scythus
On the Ice issue for Brutes, could it be that it's because Ice has a tendency to slow the recharge times on powers thus making attacks a lot less frequent? I've noticed that whenever I'm a target for ice powers, it takes seemingly forever for any of my powers to recharge, whereas with other powers like fear, stun, or knockdown, it's just a minor inconvenience. Perhaps this is what the devs meant?
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I suspect Chilling Embrace is 90% of the problem, like I said. If there is one. I can see Chilling Embrace replaced with something like Artic Fog, though, a stealth shield (since Brutes get two Sets with stealth in them) and a -Dmg debuff to all foes around them. The -Dmg would reduce the incoming damage, providing an equivalent protection to the -Recharge, but without effecting incoming attacks in such a way as to reduce Fury.
I say add stealth because +30% Resistance to everything in one power would be REALLY powerful. (And that's essentially what a -30% Dmg debuff is) -10 or -15% should be fine, though.
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Chilling Embrace was only like 2%, the other 98% was in Ice Melee: the slows on nearly every Ice Melee attack, the perma-knockdown of Ice Patch, the second highest damaging attack in the set being a Hold, and the tier 9 that, at the time, only put enemies over and over again.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Yeah, but it's not the recharge on YOUR attacks, it's on attacks coming in.
I suspect Chilling Embrace is 90% of the problem, like I said. If there is one. I can see Chilling Embrace replaced with something like Artic Fog, though, a stealth shield (since Brutes get two Sets with stealth in them) and a -Dmg debuff to all foes around them. The -Dmg would reduce the incoming damage, providing an equivalent protection to the -Recharge, but without effecting incoming attacks in such a way as to reduce Fury. I say add stealth because +30% Resistance to everything in one power would be REALLY powerful. (And that's essentially what a -30% Dmg debuff is) -10 or -15% should be fine, though. |
Ice Armor was just a victim of being thematically paired to a Melee set that was the worst set for generating Fury. Maybe Ice Melee wasn't horrible at it, like some people tend to exaggerate it having been claimed to be, but it apparently lagged far enough behind the other sets for someone to take notice.
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I've honestly heard it both ways. I've always felt it was Ice Melee that was the problem, only to have Back Alley Brawler or someone similar come out and say, "No, Ice Melee wasn't the problem, it was Chilling Embrace." I don't know whether to believe he knows what he's talking about or not, but I wasn't in CoV Beta, so I'm certainly not going to call a redname on it when I don't have any personal knowledge of it myself. |
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
Ice Armor was just a victim of being thematically paired to a Melee set that was the worst set for generating Fury. Maybe Ice Melee wasn't horrible at it, like some people tend to exaggerate it having been claimed to be, but it apparently lagged far enough behind the other sets for someone to take notice.
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What can I say, I would swear Brutes would get way too much healing out of Regeneration because of their higher HP, but Castle said, "No, it's not the healing powers, it's Quick Recovery." What do I know? [shrug]
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Ice Armor for brutes defeats the purpose of a brute.|
Originally Posted by The_Larker
Regen for brutes
Ice Armor for brutes Broadsword for brutes Illusion for dom's Don't care about heroes...so w/e |
It slows down your opponents, the Brute LIKES to get hit, to generate fury.
Broadsword for Brutes, yes I could see.
Illusion for Doms would just break the game. XD
Stone Melee and ice armor for scrappers
I would have two instant new scrappers stone/sd and spines/ice
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA