Markets: Display Best Bid/Offer prices for WW/BM items
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-02-22 19:09 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Originally Posted by NordBlast
My search-fu is bad, and I don't remember seeing similar suggestions in the last 6 months.
So, I'm proposing to add display of BBO prices (or maybe even few price levels) to the market interface. It would streamline player's interaction with market, by allowing to make instant decision whether to go into "BUY/SELL IT NOW" mode or not. IMO, it will make market much more transparent and will simplify ability of buyers and sellers to find each other. I understand that an implementation of such proposal will make a life of marketeers in some aspects more difficult and other aspects easier. But marketeers are of my least concern.  Discuss... |
What is a BBO price?
Please explain.
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The problem with this is that it actually hurts casual players more than marketeers. Marketeers don't make profits due to a lack of transparency on the market (well we do, but it's not our primary profit source) we make most of our profits due to the fluctuations in the supply (and therefore price) of an item over time. Increased transparency of pricing means that casual players will tend to get less for their items.
Increased transparency only tells you the state of the market at a moment in time. Unless you are willing to spend the time following it you don't know how much the item is actually worth, only what people are bidding/asking right now. Currently if a players lists an item below market price they still tend to get something close to the market price since people have no way of knowing exactly what their asking price is. With visible prices anything priced below market price will get snapped up at exactly that price almost immediately. So prices for marketeers will go down. We're the ones who would be checking the market regularly for low bit items to snap up. Conversely the price that BUT IT NAO players pay is unlikely to change, they will just be able to see exaclty what it is.
A double blind auction system is actually one of the fairest market designs out there. The problem is that it requires a bit more effort to learn than the others. The upside is that if you don't learn it you will still tend to get a fair market price when selling.
Finally to everyone who will post in this thread: marketeer, anti-marketeer, and PvPer alike. Mod8 has locked two similar threads in the last week, can we try and keep this one civil?
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I think it means Best Bid/Offer, as in the highest standing bid and lowest standing sale price.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
What is a BBO price?
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
What is a BBO price?
Please explain. |
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I think it means Best Bid/Offer, as in the highest standing bid and lowest standing sale price.
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Let me put here some example.
Item: Numina++ level 50 recipe
Bids | Offers
25M | 30M
20M | 35M
18M | 37M
.......|...
500K| 1.5B
In this example BBO will be 25M/30M
Player coming to the market to buy this item can make instant decision if they want to buy it for 30M or not. So, if the do, they placing 30M bid ant take this item home. If they don't, they can place bid anywhere below ask price and wait. The same way seller can decide if they want instasell for 25M or not
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/unsigned|
Originally Posted by NordBlast
That's correct.
Let me put here some example. Item: Numina++ level 50 recipe Bids | Offers 25M | 30M 20M | 35M 18M | 37M .......|... 500K| 1.5B In this example BBO will be 25M/30M Player coming to the market to buy this item can make instant decision if they want to buy it for 30M or not. So, if the do, they placing 30M bid ant take this item home. If they don't, they can place bid anywhere below ask price and wait. The same way seller can decide if they want instasell for 25M or not |
This would defeat the purpose of the highest bid going to the lowest sales price. If you can see what the asking prices are your just going to bid the lowest amount listed and screw over that seller.
For example a player gets an extremely valuable drop that normally sells for 50 million but for whatever reason he can only afford to set a price of 2-3 million. under your suggestion instead of getting the true value of the drop, you'd be able to snag it for far less than it's worth.
I prefer the way the market works currently. Note: I am quite possibly the least effective marketer on the planet (I list everything for a couple hundred over vendor price, unless it is selling for vendor price or less, in which case I vendor it). So this isn't someone who's invested in the current market scheme.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Agreed. On the other hand, I can see an argument for the opposite: display the highest list price, and display the lowest bid price. A potential buyer see that ABCD is the highest list price, and knows that bidding higher than that will guarantee a purchase right now (of course, you'll actually purchase from the lowest listed seller, not the displayed one). A potential seller see the lowest bid price, and knows that listing lower than that will guarantee a sale right now (of course, you'll actuall sell to the highest bidder, not the displayed one).|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
This would defeat the purpose of the highest bid going to the lowest sales price. If you can see what the asking prices are your just going to bid the lowest amount listed and screw over that seller.
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I'm not convinced that would be a good idea, but I think it's a better idea than what the OP is proposing.
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Now that I understand what he means, I'll have to /unsign it also.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
/unsigned
This would defeat the purpose of the highest bid going to the lowest sales price. If you can see what the asking prices are your just going to bid the lowest amount listed and screw over that seller. For example a player gets an extremely valuable drop that normally sells for 50 million but for whatever reason he can only afford to set a price of 2-3 million. under your suggestion instead of getting the true value of the drop, you'd be able to snag it for far less than it's worth. |
If this were implemented you'd quickly see a BLACK black market/wents expand. (There is already one for PVP IOs sold away from wents/black market). I'd rather not see more stuff taken OFF the market and sold for price levels at 3 times what it goes for on the market.
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I don't understand how what you are saying is any different than things are now. Players can post an item now and be screwed over. The only different is under a system that displays the current best bid price and best list price they'd know they would be getting "screwed over" before posting it.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
/unsigned
This would defeat the purpose of the highest bid going to the lowest sales price. If you can see what the asking prices are your just going to bid the lowest amount listed and screw over that seller. For example a player gets an extremely valuable drop that normally sells for 50 million but for whatever reason he can only afford to set a price of 2-3 million. under your suggestion instead of getting the true value of the drop, you'd be able to snag it for far less than it's worth. |
For example, under the current system the last 5 might display: 50, 50, 50, 50, 50. It may display 100 bids and 2 items listed for sale. The current highest bid may be 10. If you can only afford to post your item for 2, and you do so, you would get 10. If the best bid and best list were displayed then you would know that you would receive 10 before you posted your item for sale.
The entire act of posting an item for sale and setting a reserve price is an explicit statement of "I am willing to accept this much Inf for my item." If you can't afford to post the item for the value you want then don't. The display of best bid price and best list price doesn't screw any more people over.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Now that I understand what he means, I'll have to /unsign it also.
If this were implemented you'd quickly see a BLACK black market/wents expand. (There is already one for PVP IOs sold away from wents/black market). I'd rather not see more stuff taken OFF the market and sold for price levels at 3 times what it goes for on the market. |
I'm offering no opinion whether I think this suggestion should or should not be implemented. I'm merely stating that both of you unsigned this suggestion for reasons that don't make any sense.
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A system that displays bids tends to make more stable markets. Prices won't fluctuate up and down as much as they do now. Displaying market information would make the market a more store like environment.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The problem with this is that it actually hurts casual players more than marketeers. Marketeers don't make profits due to a lack of transparency on the market (well we do, but it's not our primary profit source) we make most of our profits due to the fluctuations in the supply (and therefore price) of an item over time. Increased transparency of pricing means that casual players will tend to get less for their items.
Increased transparency only tells you the state of the market at a moment in time. Unless you are willing to spend the time following it you don't know how much the item is actually worth, only what people are bidding/asking right now. Currently if a players lists an item below market price they still tend to get something close to the market price since people have no way of knowing exactly what their asking price is. With visible prices anything priced below market price will get snapped up at exactly that price almost immediately. So prices for marketeers will go down. We're the ones who would be checking the market regularly for low bit items to snap up. Conversely the price that BUT IT NAO players pay is unlikely to change, they will just be able to see exaclty what it is. A double blind auction system is actually one of the fairest market designs out there. The problem is that it requires a bit more effort to learn than the others. The upside is that if you don't learn it you will still tend to get a fair market price when selling. Finally to everyone who will post in this thread: marketeer, anti-marketeer, and PvPer alike. Mod8 has locked two similar threads in the last week, can we try and keep this one civil? |
Borrowing part of a line from your post: The upside of a market that displays more bid information is that you will almost always get the fair market price when buying or selling.
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How about providing some supporting arguments for why you think that and why it would be a good thing for the economy?|
Originally Posted by Chriffer
A system that displays bids tends to make more stable markets. Prices won't fluctuate up and down as much as they do now. Displaying market information would make the market a more store like environment.
Borrowing part of a line from your post: The upside of a market that displays more bid information is that you will almost always get the fair market price when buying or selling. |
Making the market more like a store would not be a good thing. A double blind auction system is actually one of the best methods for allowing people to purchase things at stable prices. In a store style market (like say the one in WoW) you have one option: purchase whatever is available when you check the market. The advantage of a double blind is it allows you to set buy orders and purchase things for your desired price when you aren't at the market.
It's also worth considering the fact that when there is a difference between the buyer's price and the seller's price it is the buyer's price that is used rather than the seller's. The purpose of this is that it forces marketeers to play fair. If bids were executed at the seller's price then the profit margin of marketeers would increase since we could place our buy orders at a higher price than we currently do but would actually get the goods for less.
Displaying the available purchase prices essentially means that bids are enacted at the seller's price it just requires a bit more effort on the part of the marketeer to do so (and yes, people will do so).
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The details were already provided, you just choose to dismiss them.|
Originally Posted by Chriffer
I don't understand why people would take things off market with this system in place. I honestly have no idea in anyway, shape or form how this could possibly be true. Please, provide me with some details of any kind.
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Player A gets a drop worth 200 million say a Ragnarok but he only has enough inf onhand to as for 25 million. If he puts it on the market under this suggestion he's going to lose 175 million. Guess what, he isn't going to put it on the market then. Instead he'll sell it to a private party.
This will have a negative impact on the market because people will be withholding their items and as the supply dries up the prices on the market will soar because it will now be harder for players to find what they want to buy. This is simple supply and demand.
To make matters worse, out of market trading between players will increase dramatically as the people who aren't selling their drops at the market sell their loot in private transactions. You'll see people selling things for 2, 3, 4 times the amount listed at the market because there will always be people that have to have something immediately.
You'll probably even see posts where people are auctioning their drops. This will lead to animosity when the inevitable happens and someone that desperately wants something can't get it because he's on the seller's ignore list.
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Somehow I fail to see how providing more information would require spending more time following the market than we already have. You'd have to spend more time following the market when you have less information about it.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The problem with this is that it actually hurts casual players more than marketeers. Marketeers don't make profits due to a lack of transparency on the market (well we do, but it's not our primary profit source) we make most of our profits due to the fluctuations in the supply (and therefore price) of an item over time. Increased transparency of pricing means that casual players will tend to get less for their items.
Increased transparency only tells you the state of the market at a moment in time. Unless you are willing to spend the time following it you don't know how much the item is actually worth, only what people are bidding/asking right now. |
Here are 2 images of AAPL's quotes. First includes top of book and time &sales, second includes only time&sales. You getting much more information with first.
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| Currently if a players lists an item below market price they still tend to get something close to the market price since people have no way of knowing exactly what their asking price is. With visible prices anything priced below market price will get snapped up at exactly that price almost immediately. So prices for marketeers will go down. We're the ones who would be checking the market regularly for low bit items to snap up. Conversely the price that BUT IT NAO players pay is unlikely to change, they will just be able to see exaclty what it is. |
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| A double blind auction system is actually one of the fairest market designs out there. The problem is that it requires a bit more effort to learn than the others. The upside is that if you don't learn it you will still tend to get a fair market price when selling. |
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
/unsigned
This would defeat the purpose of the highest bid going to the lowest sales price. If you can see what the asking prices are your just going to bid the lowest amount listed and screw over that seller. For example a player gets an extremely valuable drop that normally sells for 50 million but for whatever reason he can only afford to set a price of 2-3 million. under your suggestion instead of getting the true value of the drop, you'd be able to snag it for far less than it's worth. |
Another solution can be folding listing fees into transaction fees.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Agreed. On the other hand, I can see an argument for the opposite: display the highest list price, and display the lowest bid price. A potential buyer see that ABCD is the highest list price, and knows that bidding higher than that will guarantee a purchase right now (of course, you'll actually purchase from the lowest listed seller, not the displayed one). A potential seller see the lowest bid price, and knows that listing lower than that will guarantee a sale right now (of course, you'll actuall sell to the highest bidder, not the displayed one).
I'm not convinced that would be a good idea, but I think it's a better idea than what the OP is proposing. |
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Now that I understand what he means, I'll have to /unsign it also.
If this were implemented you'd quickly see a BLACK black market/wents expand. (There is already one for PVP IOs sold away from wents/black market). I'd rather not see more stuff taken OFF the market and sold for price levels at 3 times what it goes for on the market. |
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I didn't say it requires you to spend more time following the market. It gives you a better snapshot of the market at the current time but unless you follow it a lot you don't necessarily know how to interpret that data. Conversely the increased transparency benefits marketeers a lot, we can more easily get good deals on items that we otherwise might miss out on. Sure we'll get a bit less on our sales but we'll more than make up for it with our purchases.|
Originally Posted by NordBlast
Somehow I fail to see how providing more information would require spending more time following the market than we already have. You'd have to spend more time following the market when you have less information about it.
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| That system benefits the seller and "shafts" the buyer. |
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| I disagree that system based on hiding information is fairer than system providing information. |
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| Another solution can be folding listing fees into transaction fees. |
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how about /unsigned. the market is not a store. it is not a market. it is an auction/consignment house. for the love of god, stop using it as a store. place a bid and go walk away and do a mish or 2 and your bid should fill or you may drop what you needed. |
Originally Posted by NordBlast
Somehow I fail to see how providing more information would require spending more time following the market than we already have. You'd have to spend more time following the market when you have less information about it.
Here are 2 images of AAPL's quotes. First includes top of book and time &sales, second includes only time&sales. You getting much more information with first. That system benefits the seller and "shafts" the buyer. I disagree that system based on hiding information is fairer than system providing information. Listing valuable item for throwaway price puts you at risk that someone buys it at that price in absence of high bidders. Having best bid information will exclude such risk, so you can avoid listing you valubales unless you have sufficient funds to do it. Another solution can be folding listing fees into transaction fees. You already have this information. If you have bids on item then you can reliably sell it for 1 inf, if you have item offered, you can reliably buy it for 2B. Why? How? |
also, if the bids are not what a player thinks is high enough to sell on the market it will go off market. this will hurt everyone.
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Conversely it creates more competition between marketeers leading to narrowing spread between BBO.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Conversely the increased transparency benefits marketeers a lot, we can more easily get good deals on items that we otherwise might miss out on. Sure we'll get a bit less on our sales but we'll more than make up for it with our purchases.
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| Nope, it benefits the patient and shafts the impatient. Buyers benefit a lot by being able to place buy orders and purchase things while they aren't physically standing in the market. Additionally most people are both buyers and sellers (they sell their drops and buy what they want) so the pricing tends to balance out. The only people who get the shaft are the ones who insist on buying shinys immediately no matter the cost, and to be honest they are going to get the shaft no matter what system is used. The double blind system means that people who are patient can get good deals without needing to spend time camping the AH leaving more time available to play the game. |
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| I would actually like the market to display more information. But the information I'd like to see is more historical data, at least the last 24 hours although an option to see the last week would be nice. This would be a much better way of closing the knowledge gap between marketeers and non-marketeers than increasing the knowledge of the market at the present time. Increasing present time knowledge encourages BUY IT NAO and SELL IT NAO mentalities which generally result in you getting the worst prices. Increasing historical knowledge makes it easier to see what the true market value is. |
But, having present time knowlege doesn't prevent you from waiting for better market conditions than lack of such knowledge. It gives you ability, given that you consider existent bids/ask is reasonable, to buy/sell desired item right away instead of taking wild guesses. In no way this system will prevent you from placing low price bid/ high price offer if you don't like current prices.
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| This is another change that only really benefits marketeers. Currently we're forced to list items at a price where we know they will sell in our desired time frame since pulling them and relisting at a lower price is expensive and really cuts into our bottom line. Allowing us to relist items for free means we can do more expensive pricing to try and maximize our profits without worrying about the cost if they don't sell/ |
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
how about /unsigned. the market is not a store. it is not a market. it is an auction/consignment house. for the love of god, stop using it as a store. place a bid and go walk away and do a mish or 2 and your bid should fill or you may drop what you needed.
also, if the bids are not what a player thinks is high enough to sell on the market it will go off market. this will hurt everyone. |
BTW, you can hardly call majority of Stock, Options and Futures markets throughout the world that operate in similar mode as the stores
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Nope. Good marketeers already know roughly what people are asking/offering items for and price their good accordingly. You already see a situation where a niche is to small for the number of marketeers working it and the buy/sell prices start to converge. If the niche is large enough to support the people trying to work it then prices don't really change a lot. Marketeers leave their bids/sales up when they aren't playing and they clear out.|
Originally Posted by NordBlast
Conversely it creates more competition between marketeers leading to narrowing spread between BBO.
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| While there are alot of players who are just impatient, the market lag is another driving force to make player impatient. It take anywhere from few seconds to more than 1 minute for system to process your bid. Have you try to creep bid lets say for "magical conspiracy" from 500K to 1.5M in 50K increments? How often will you do it? Isn't it more likely that you will try it in 250K increment or will say "eff it" and bid 1.5M right away? After that you might see post in "Market and Inventions" forum where "Ebil" marketeer expresses joy and calls buyer lazy and stupid because his "Magical Conspiracy" listed for 1,251,234 inf was sold for 1.5M insted of 1.3M. If system displayed BBO and it happened to be best offer, I'd simply bid 1.26-1.3M and take it out instead trying to bidcreep and end up paing 1.5M |
Having a visible BBO encourages players to pay the current asking price and accept the current offering price but those are not the market prices of the items. You can always get a better price if you're willing to wait. So a visible BBO helps impatient buyers (since they can pay the exact amount instead of a round number) and hurts patient sellers (who will get less for their goods from marketeers and impatient players). Now marketeers make most of our profits from impatient players but I'd much rather the market be set to aid patient players since patience is a virtue.
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Two words: "Gas Wars"
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Originally Posted by NordBlast
I disagree that system based on hiding information is fairer than system providing information.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I didn't get reference... Would you care to explain?
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Two words: "Gas Wars"
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The gas wars of the 1960s. An example of a system which provided all the information which was not a good thing.
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Originally Posted by NordBlast
I didn't get reference... Would you care to explain?
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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You're going to have to explain the connection. Given the circumstances are completely different, your analogy either fails completely or disregards the fact that there is an infinite supply of widgets. The change in prices in the 1960s were cents a gallon, about the same as today. Only cents per gallon differences meant more in 1960 than it does today.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
The gas wars of the 1960s. An example of a system which provided all the information which was not a good thing.
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Even if it were remotely connected, there is the problem that you are dealing with a group that controlled production of the commodity in question. This is completely unconnected to the production reality in the game where the random number generator controls what is made and when.
So are you trying to prove the reason we should be given more information about the markets?
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Well, I'm not familiar with what type of information markets provided during 1960 and how such information or lack of it were/would affect The Gas Wars. But, I have been keeping tab on stock, options and futures markets since early nineties. Most of exchanges were forced to open more and more information either because of competitors pressure, through goverment regulations or on their own. Majority traders, I have chance to talk to, were welcoming every new iteration of the information disclosure.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
The gas wars of the 1960s. An example of a system which provided all the information which was not a good thing.
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But there isn't an infinite supply of widgets in the game.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
You're going to have to explain the connection. Given the circumstances are completely different, your analogy either fails completely or disregards the fact that there is an infinite supply of widgets. The change in prices in the 1960s were cents a gallon, about the same as today. Only cents per gallon differences meant more in 1960 than it does today.
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More information will cause prices to be more stable. By having more information available players will be inclined to bid closer to the "best bid price" and list their items closer to the "best list price." Players will take these actions because they want their bids to succeed and they want their listed items to sell.
Marketeers make profit when prices are more volatile. The more prices go up and down the more potential profit is to be made by marketeering. A system that has more stable prices has less potential profit for marketeers. However, marketeers who monitor prices regularly can watch for the natural rise and fall of profits and seize those situations with certainty that they have occurred. The result of this increased display of information is that flippers will have to work harder to profit. They have to actively monitor items for rises and falls in prices unlike now when an unsuspecting player may list an item for a low price not knowing that the flippers lowball bid is the highest current offer.
Players can still purchase and sell items when not at the market. Prices naturally rise and fall over time. This occurs because sometimes 10 sellers appear in a row and sometimes 10 buyers appear in a row. Also, the market naturally changes over time due to a changing player base and changing player wants. Placing bids below the current best bid still gives a player the possibility of purchasing the item at a later time. Placing items for sale above the listed price also grants a player the possibility of selling their item at a later date.
Decision tree of a player who has little funds but has a valuable item. Tree for displayed bid prices and the current system. We'll assume in all situations that the item regularly sells for 100 million Inf and we'll compare when the current highest bid is 100M and 5M. The player can see that there are outstanding bids. The player can only list the item for 1 Inf.
Player goes to market. Sees he can't list item for 100M...
1) Current System: Current highest bid 5M
Player looks and sees outstanding bids. He doesn't know what they are. He can decide to gamble or sell off market.
A) He decides to gamble. It sells for 5M Inf.
B) He decides to sell off market. He gets whatever he can find but has to work by posting, broadcasting, and coordinating an exchange time.
2) Current System. Highest bid 100M
A) He decides to gamble. It sells for 100M Inf.
B) He decides to sell off market. He gets whatever he can find but has to work by posting, broadcasting, and coordinating an exchange time.
3) Best Offer displayed. Highest bid 5M.
A) He knows the highest bid is 5M. He knows he doesn't want to list his item for 1. He sells off market or waits for a higher bid.
4) Best Offer displayer. Highest bid 100M.
A) He knows the highest bid is 100M. He lists for 1 and gets 100M.
Thus, in a displayed bid system a player with little inf and a valuable item knows when to post his item for sale on the market. He doesn't have to do guesswork like he does now.
I don't understand the logic of "players are more likely to take their items off market." My perplexed mind at such baffling logic thinks your reasoning sounds like "So... your plan is that you don't want to list the item when you can see what people are bidding and listing at because you'd rather sell off market where two people tell each other what they want to bid at and list at?"
My search-fu is bad, and I don't remember seeing similar suggestions in the last 6 months.
So, I'm proposing to add display of BBO prices (or maybe even few price levels) to the market interface.
It would streamline player's interaction with market, by allowing to make instant decision whether to go into "BUY/SELL IT NOW" mode or not.
IMO, it will make market much more transparent and will simplify ability of buyers and sellers to find each other.
I understand that an implementation of such proposal will make a life of marketeers in some aspects more difficult and other aspects easier. But marketeers are of my least concern.
Discuss...